"Ground Shyness"

[pilotdave]

Hey all,

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

Any advice?

 

[Henning]

Get over it or quit flying before you crash with a load of people.

 

[Bob Noel]

Hey all,

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

Any advice?

Practice practice practice.

 

[PittsDriver]

More slow flight practice including stalls. That's probably the best way to get convinced that the airplane won't suddenly fall out of the sky - or at least how slow you have to be before it does.

 

[deltafox]

Don't fixate. Keep your scan going from airspeed to intended point of landing to the entire runway environment back to airspeed. Trim the plane. Make sure it will fly on the glide path on speed with your hands off. Talk out loud to yourself. What are you looking at, what doesn't look right, how are you going to correct it. Be smooth, treat the airplane like a lady, no sudden moves.

 

[TedR3]

Get over it or quit flying before you crash with a load of people.

That sounds a little harsh. Don't just quit because you're struggling with something and "maybe I'm not cut out for this" thoughts creep into your mind.

I'm hesitant to give any advice because - like you - I'm a low time student pilot, but at the risk of being flamed, I'll give some anyway.

Because you mention overflying the mall, I'm guessing your problem is not just a short final problem. It sounds like your irrational thoughts about falling out of the sky are keeping you from executing your approach the way you know you should.

My approaches and landings are still an adventure, but the following has been helpful for me:

- As new students, it seems like our approaches are mechanical until on short final. Commit every step of the sequence (e.g. abeam the numbers, pull power to 1500 rpm, 10 degrees flaps, pitch to 85 kts, etc.) to memory. Keep running the sequence of events through your head while you're away from the airport until you can recite it without thinking.

- On your approach, commit yourself to executing the sequence of events without regard to your perceptions about altitude. Focus on executing the approach. Think out loud. Say what you are doing.

- Trust your CFI. He or she will intervene if an unsafe situation develops.

- I'm know its aircraft/instructor/pattern dependent but when I had a tendency to be high and fast on final: After you've pulled the power, don't correct any perceived altitude problems, and don't touch the power, until you're on final with your approach speed established and trimmed. On final concentrate first on setting airspeed via pitch then on correcting glide path via power.

- Repeated execution of the procedures with successful results will overcome your doubts.

 

[SCCutler]

Ted, you may be "just" a student, but that all reads like pretty good advice.

 

[Henning]

That sounds a little harsh. Don't just quit because you're struggling with something and "maybe I'm not cut out for this" thoughts creep into your mind.

Lot of dead aviators should have listened to those thoughts, they are all too often correct.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Lots of pilots experience this. Look here for more comments.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35173

 

[whifferdill]

Learn to "feel" the amount of lift left in the wings through the elevator pressures through progressively slower airspeeds. You have to pay attention and make a conscious effort to notice the feel thoughout the approach/glide break/flare phases. You will then not have to "trust" the airplane, or trust that a certain airspeed indication is safe - you will know by a feel through the controls that will never lie. You will also feel more like you are connected to the airplane as opposed to "operating" it.

 

[AdamZ]

At what hight AGL are you cutting power? Its all about airspeed not power. You can maintain proper airspeed for a time with out power. Why not try to go to altitude say 3000' pull the throttle and see how far and long you can glide at what ever your planes best glide speed is. If its more a matter of your psyching yourself out then you just have to believe your ASI and keep doing it and doing it until you don't second guess yourself anymore.

 

[jmcsherry]

Zach has some good suggestions. Knowing how your aircraft will glide is very reassuring to the beginning pilot.
You should also realize that you can land with some power still on; it may not be the manner that your CFI prefers, but it is quite workable as a learning technique. Get your CFI to coach you through flying the length of the runway just above roundout height, go around, and then repeat lower and lower until you can fly the length with the mains occasionally touching the runway ("chirp, chirp") but not remaining there. With a bit less power on the next circuit, you can let the mains touch and roll on, then reduce the power to remain on the ground.
That excercise also helps develop that "feel' that wifferdill was describing. And, all this operating close to the ground may help you overcome your Earth-aversion
Good luck.

 

[wabower]

Fly the approach, but don't land. Fly the runway centerline in landing configuration at 6" AGL (now you have to figure out where the wheels are (relative to the runway) by glancing out the side window occasionally) with just enough power to prevent touching down. Basically a low-altitude slow-flight drill with a runway to land on if you lose power.

Do it several times to become comfortable and acclimate yourself to the attitude, sight picture, sound, feel and control inputs necessary to make it happen. Two-three passes at a long runway is usually enough. Then during one pass hold attitude and reduce power by 200 rpm and it will land. Every time, just like you want.

 

[Jeanie]

Hi Dave,
Welcome to POA - Glad you posted here to get information and opinions from others. I have a few thoughts to share:

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

~~~~~~~~~ Like the others have already said go up and glide around w/ your CFI - Gliding turns too not just only straight glides. Trim the plane so that it will glide hands off- literally rest your hands in your lap and just watch and feel how calm it is and what the usual descent picture and rate is. Trainers are inherently stable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

~~~~~~~~~ It's quite natural to be concerned for malls, interstates, housing developments ... whatever is on the approach side of a runway and it's laudable - No one in their right mind would want to put themselves or the innocents below at risk so your instinct is good actually. And I imagine that it's fairly common for pilots to change how they set up for landing- even unconsciouly when they are coming over an area like that - I know I have to concentrate extra when I'm in that kind of situation. Have you gone to another airport to practice where there is no one/nothing off the approach end of the runway? Is their an airport like that nearby? I think it will help you a lot if you can find a remote type place like that and go practice landings there where your only concern is the proper stabilized set up for landing to deal with and not worry over who or what you have to fly low over. Once you can do the set up w/ confidence at the open field and can "trust" your plane and yourself then go back to the MALL airport and just do it the same way - focusing on your approach. Treating the mall just like you would the field.

Believe me as a student pilot you are not alone in these kinds of scenarios - It's just a matter of being creative w/ how to reset your mind w/ regard to what you are seeing and persistence.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[jmcsherry]

Great advice, Jeanie. And most a reassuring tone for a diligent student who wants nothing more than to do it the right way.

 

[Dan Thomas]

There are a few who are afraid of stalling on final, and they usually end up too fast. Fast approaches usually mean a long float and late touchdown, which can mean running off the end of a runway (especially if one has learned to fly on a 10,000-foot runway and then goes for the $100 burger at a 2500' country strip) or skidding the tires and blowing them out, or by ballooning and ending up stalling at 20 feet, or by touching down nosewheel-first and starting a porpoise that ends up smashing the airplane. I would bet that many more airplanes are damaged, and people hurt, by the results of fast landings than by stalls on final.

So stall recognition and recovery is in order. Slow flight at altitude, glides at various speeds right down to stall, full stalls, wing-drop stalls, everything. Many are surprised just how low that ASI gets before the airplane gives up, and lose their fear of stalling on final.

Dan

 

[gismo]

Hey all,

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

Any advice?

First of all, don't feel bad, there are plenty of pilots out there who still land way too hot even though they've been flying for years and have hundreds of hours. IOW this is a fairly common problem. It will be resolved by a combination of exposure (do something often enough and it will eventually feel normal) and mental discipline. Since you admit that you already know on a purely logical level that the approach will not terminate with the plane dropping out of the sky unexpectedly (as long as you maintain the correct airspeed) you need to find a way to get your "left brain"(logical) to control your "right brain"(emotional). This is an important step with any endeavor where following proper procedures is critical to safety. I'd begin by forcing yourself to fly the right speed (perhaps asking the CFI to nag you into this at first) so you can start getting exposure to the correct technique. What you've been doing has actually fortified the feeling that a fast approach is better/safer and you really need to stop doing that even though the proper speed feels uncomfortable.

Another potential idea would be to focus on the unsafe nature of a too fast approach letting one less intuitive fear balance the other. Have your CFI identify an easy to spot landmark along the runway such as an intersection, sign, etc that you are to consider the physical end of the runway you're landing on. If you then end up passing that point during your high speed landing, visualize in your mind that you've just run off the end into a fence (perhaps you could even picture a fence across the runway there). This should make a direct appeal to your emotional right brain, arguing for better speed control on final.

You might also consider "semi slow" flight i.e. flying at approach speed at a higher altitude where you know that recovery from a stall is easy until you build up the confidence in the wing's ability to keep you aloft.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have the same problem -- probably because "pointing the nose at the ground" is not a good way to land an airplane. In typical light planes, if you "point the nose at the ground," you're probably diving at the runway too fast for a good landing. As noted above, this sounds like a confidence problem which can probably be best beaten by practicing flying the proper landing approach attitude/configuration at altitude in the practice area, and working your way down from there.

 

[pilotdave]

Some excellent info here. I've actually saved off this thread and the other linked to review with my CFI at my next lesson. It helps to see I'm not the only one who has battled this. Also new ideas about landing in general I hadn't heard or thought of.

Having a day to think about my last lesson (which was yesterday) and a chat with my old CFI he reminds me of a few things that I probably should have mentioned. Small details like, I'm training in a new plane (Remos GX vs 172) with a new CFI, at a new airport and I've not flown in a month. So he suggests I should cut myself a little slack. He's probably right.

 

[gprellwitz]

I have the same problem -- probably because "pointing the nose at the ground" is not a good way to land an airplane. In typical light planes, if you "point the nose at the ground," you're probably diving at the runway too fast for a good landing. As noted above, this sounds like a confidence problem which can probably be best beaten by practicing flying the proper landing approach attitude/configuration at altitude in the practice area, and working your way down from there.

I'll just comment that I've been flying a Beech Sierra lately and, compared to the Cessnas I'm used to, the approach really does feel like pointing at the ground and the landing attitude feels very level.

 

[Ted]

I'll just comment that I've been flying a Beech Sierra lately and, compared to the Cessnas I'm used to, the approach really does feel like pointing at the ground and the landing attitude feels very level.

Same for the 310 I've been flying recently. It feels like a very level landing (which surprised me), and the view out the front window is of the world, not of a big toucan nose. The first landing I did in the thing was surprising.

 

[Everskyward]

The first landing I did in the thing was surprising.

I remember the first landing I did in the C-320 after having mostly only flown high-wing Cessnas. I scared the crap out of my boss (who was not a CFI) when I brought the nose way up in the flare. I have since learned that most larger airplanes as well as some smaller ones land comparitively flat and you don't bring the nose up higher and higher until it finally lands.

 

[Ted]

I remember the first landing I did in the C-320 after having mostly only flown high-wing Cessnas. I scared the crap out of my boss (who was not a CFI) when I brought the nose way up in the flare. I have since learned that most larger airplanes as well as some smaller ones land comparitively flat and you don't bring the nose up higher and higher until it finally lands.

Yes, and in that regard the Aztec lands more like a high-wing Cessna. The 310, Navajo, and 421 I've found land relatively flat. I find I like that better.

 

[Everskyward]

I find I like that better.

I do too but it's a habit I need to consciously try to break when someone lets me land their small airplane. In the "Twin Cessna" (here I am talking about the C-680 not the C-320) you need to put forward pressure on the yoke after landing or the nose will pop up when you extend the speedbrakes.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Hey all,

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

Any advice?

Get some dual in a glider and /or get some acro dual. Get over it fast.

 

[Ted]

I do too but it's a habit I need to consciously try to break when someone lets me land their small airplane. In the "Twin Cessna" (here I am talking about the C-680 not the C-320) you need to put forward pressure on the yoke after landing or the nose will pop up when you extend the speedbrakes.

The opposite of the C-310/320 where you keep the yoke pulled back to minimize stress on the nosegear.

 

[Everskyward]

The opposite of the C-310/320 where you keep the yoke pulled back to minimize stress on the nosegear.

True, and I think this illustrates the problem of falling too much in love with a certain technique. Airplanes are all slightly different, some are a lot different, and pilots need to be adaptable.

 

[Ted]

True, and I think this illustrates the problem of falling too much in love with a certain technique. Airplanes are all slightly different, some are a lot different, and pilots need to be adaptable.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[xaminmo]

I'm having trouble overcoming what I'll call ground shyness for lack of a better term. Basically I have a problem cutting power, pointing the nose at the ground when landing. As such, I usually land fast and long. Basically I don't trust the plane, that it won't drop out of the sky.

On a cerebral level I completely understand that even if the engine quits, I can glide in. My CFI and I have even worked on Power off landings. But I still can't get it out of my head that I'm not going to go careening into that shopping mall that i'm flying over on final.

Any advice?

I have this issue when flying in a Piper. Approach is faster than I like (90mph), descent is higher (800fpn), and nose is lower by quite a bit.

My fear is that I'll drive the nosewheel through the firewall if I don't pull into the flare at just the right time. If I slow it down, then the plane drops like a rock.

The fix for this is more practice with a CFI. Maybe try out a couple of different CFIs to get different perspectives.

OR, try out another type of plane. Diamonds and Cessna aren't so nose low, and they have a slower approach speed. Plus, if you get a couple of knots slow, they don't lose control authority and altitude nearly as quickly.

Also, as has been recommended above, more slow-flight and stalls. Go up with a CFI a little higher and just fly the plane half stalled for a little while so you know what to expect. Know where the loss of control authority is versus just being mushy and sinking too fast.

Also, something to help your workload is to trim the plane for a pitch angle that gives you the proper approach speed. Memorize that trim setting (it's specific to the plane, not the type, so beware). Adjust power to change your sink/climb.

Finally, there's no law that says you can't try a few landings without flaps, so long as your runway has plenty of room. Never cut it close on length, but it's ok to come in long and shallow so long as you have tree clearance during the approach. Flaps help you have HIGHER sink rate at the same airspeed, so maybe cutting the sink rate will hep you get comfy.

 

[Bob Noel]

I have this issue when flying in a Piper. Approach is faster than I like (90mph), descent is higher (800fpn), and nose is lower by quite a bit.
.

What Piper are you flying?

 

[xaminmo]

What Piper are you flying?

I'm no master, so it could be me and my technique (or lack thereof) but I had similar nose-low issues with both the Seneca II & Cherokee 140.

The Seneca was just a heavy bird, and took a ton of elevator to pull the nose up enough to land flat. On the plus side, if you carried a little extra speed, it worked out pretty well and you'd get a decent flare without leaping back into the sky. The guys with shorter arms would give it three spins of nose-up trim on final to make it easier to flare (but then you're pushing pretty hard on a go-around).

The 140 was so light that when you pull up for the flare, it liked to climb and promptly lose airspeed. This was more of a power-off landing technique I was being taught. I think it might be easier to fly just barely on the back side of the power curve to keep from plunking it down. Thank goodness the gear on them is study.

Most of my primary training was in the DA40 which likes to fly a lot slower on short final, especially when lightly loaded.

 

[AggieMike88]

Diamonds and Cessna aren't so nose low, and they have a slower approach speed. Plus, if you get a couple of knots slow, they don't lose control authority and altitude nearly as quickly.

Also, as has been recommended above, more slow-flight and stalls. Go up with a CFI a little higher and just fly the plane half stalled for a little while so you know what to expect. Know where the loss of control authority is versus just being mushy and sinking too fast.

I'm doing my primary training in a DA20, and Josh is suggesting what I practiced today during my lesson. It's been since mid-june since I've flown and it was necessary to take a small step backwards to reinforce the skills needed for good landings.

So Instructor Dan and I went out and did slow flight just like Josh suggests. We slowed up until the stall horn was sounding (which on this aircraft is about 8 knots above the white arc) and practiced holding speed and altitude both straight ahead and shallow turns. Emphasis was to to fly in landing configuration (flaps at landing) and slow enough to understand how the controls felt.

Then it was practice holding altitude while progressively slowing down from a slow cruise to 75 knots (my "abeam numbers and set first flaps (T/O position)) to 65 knots (after turning base and final flaps (Landing position)) and finally to 55 knots (final approach speed).

This was a nice refresher. And a good reminder as to how to handle the aircraft during the transition from cruise to pattern entry.

Also, something to help your workload is to trim the plane for a pitch angle that gives you the proper approach speed. Memorize that trim setting (it's specific to the plane, not the type, so beware). Adjust power to change your sink/climb.

Major +1 to correct trim. I really worked today to make sure to do this as we changed the configuration and speeds. Retrimming each time so that only fingertip control was needed permitted made a big difference. This way it was just a small fingertip movement to correct the pitch and airspeed.

And it does go far to reduce the workload as you progress through the landing cycle.

I'm no master, so it could be me and my technique (or lack thereof) but I had similar nose-low issues with both the Seneca II & Cherokee 140.

The 140 was so light that when you pull up for the flare, it liked to climb and promptly lose airspeed. This was more of a power-off landing technique I was being taught. I think it might be easier to fly just barely on the back side of the power curve to keep from plunking it down. Thank goodness the gear on them is study.

Most of my primary training was in the DA40 which likes to fly a lot slower on short final, especially when lightly loaded.

Is that Tom's Cherokee?

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm no master, so it could be me and my technique (or lack thereof) but I had similar nose-low issues with both the Seneca II & Cherokee 140.


The 140 was so light that when you pull up for the flare, it liked to climb and promptly lose airspeed. This was more of a power-off landing technique I was being taught.

caveat: I'm not a CFI, but 90mph in a cherokee 140 is waaaaay too fast.
If I fly my 140 at 90mph crossing the threshold, that puppy will land
pretty long. With two notches of flaps, I fly short final in my 140
at 80mph (or less).

 

[TMetzinger]

To the OP - it sounds like a BIG part of your problem is the shopping mall. Suggest you and your instructor go practice a few landings at an alternate airport with a less congested path to final. Then, once you're convinced that the airplane really will fly at a slow speed all the way to touchdown, you can overfly the mall again.

Also, practice some more constant airspeed descents in the landing configuration, but then level off STILL in the landing configuration. This will help you "get" the fact that you can stop your descent anytime you want, and may help with the mall-o-phobia.

 

[xaminmo]

Is that Tom's Cherokee?

Yup. Still drops like a rock when slow (Piper) but more responsive controls than the Seneca (aka a Cherokee Six with two engines).

caveat: I'm not a CFI, but 90mph in a cherokee 140 is waaaaay too fast.
If I fly my 140 at 90mph crossing the threshold, that puppy will land
pretty long. With two notches of flaps, I fly short final in my 140
at 80mph (or less).

I'm not 100% sure what my speed was in the 140. I wasn't allowed to look at the panel during approach, nor get a real feel for what approach speeds were supposed to be. The few times I could catch a glimpse, we seemed to be over 80mph and 700fpm. I know the Seneca and the Dakota like around 90 for approach, and don't have enough time in any of them to sort it all out.

Still, nose low was what I was bringing to the OP so a diff type of plane might help.

 

[TMetzinger]

caveat: I'm not a CFI, but 90mph in a cherokee 140 is waaaaay too fast.
If I fly my 140 at 90mph crossing the threshold, that puppy will land
pretty long. With two notches of flaps, I fly short final in my 140
at 80mph (or less).

And whatever happened to 1.3 Vs0 as the "starting" point for your final approach speed? I'm all for being able to land without the instruments, but that's an ADVANCED skill - the whole point of having the ASI (and other instruments) I is so that you can look at it now and then to see if the airplane is doing what you want it to do. Once you've reached the point where you can consistently fly the pattern with reference to the ASI, you'll have enough experience to correlate noise, engine sound, speed over the ground, etc. and not NEED the ASI.

When I transitioned into Mooney's I quickly learned that my "cues" from the Socata airplanes I flew previously were LYING to me - what "felt" like 80 knots was in reality 95+, and that makes landing in the Mooney impossible unless there's another runway perfectly aligned in the next county.

 

[jesse]

I'm not 100% sure what my speed was in the 140. I wasn't allowed to look at the panel during approach, nor get a real feel for what approach speeds were supposed to be. The few times I could catch a glimpse, we seemed to be over 80mph and 700fpm. I know the Seneca and the Dakota like around 90 for approach, and don't have enough time in any of them to sort it all out.

Still, nose low was what I was bringing to the OP so a diff type of plane might help.

90 mph in a 140 would be way way too fast. You're looking for more like 70 mph at gross and less at lighter weights.

 

[jmcsherry]

I'll just comment that I've been flying a Beech Sierra lately and, compared to the Cessnas I'm used to, the approach really does feel like pointing at the ground and the landing attitude feels very level.

A lot of people transitioning into the Cirrus feel the same way; the pitch attitude on base & final is far more nose-down than they were accustomed to in a 172 or Cherokee.
But I think Ron is referring more to the attitude at round-out, as the pilot gently brings the nose up to a level-flight attitude for that moment of bleeding off the airspeed to allow the mains to touch. Or, he could be referring to a bad practice of trying to correct a too-long approach by "diving" to the threshold; of course, this will rarely (if ever) lead to a graceful landing.
Folks need time and practice (and good coaching) to learn the proper attitudes throughout the landing approach. Ground shyness is normal at first; I remember that feeling of apprehension back when I had no feel for the distance from my eyes to the bottom of the tires. But I got over it, as did those before and since. Dave will too.

Jim McSherry

 

[dmccormack]

I actually had better landings at night when I was learning to fly.

I think it's because there are fewer cues. All I had were the skid marks on the runway, and not level off before then.

Perhaps some time doing patterns at night will help get over the "shyness."

 

[jmcsherry]

Wow Dan, that could work both ways don't you think? Landing with fewer visual cues will naturally give the pilot less to get scared by; but a night landing without visual cues is also a good bit more challenging to accomplish.
In most cases, I'd rather see a student accomplish good normal landings in daylight, then transfer the skill to night conditions. But, as always, individuals are different. Dave's CFI knows his needs better than I do (at least I hope so) and may find the night suggestion a good approach.

Jim McSherry