Ground Delays

Ata and blatant lies for $1000 please

Number 1 reason for ground delays is that the hub and spoke airport system implemented by the air carriers is over loaded. Has nothing to do with GA.
 
They (ATA) are doing what they think is necessary to achieve their goal. While I don't agree with the tactics, I think I can understand wanting their expenses to decrease by passing some of the costs to GA.

Anyway, AOPA should be taking the fight to them instead of responding to lying and misrepresentations. The person who continuously throws the second punch rarely wins the fight :(
 
So ATA says that corporate bizjets aren't delayed?

If that were true, seems to me that would be a FANTASTIC reason for more people to look into flying on corporate jets! :cheerswine:
 
kevin47881 said:
They (ATA) are doing what they think is necessary to achieve their goal. While I don't agree with the tactics, I think I can understand wanting their expenses to decrease by passing some of the costs to GA.

Anyway, AOPA should be taking the fight to them instead of responding to lying and misrepresentations. The person who continuously throws the second punch rarely wins the fight :(
Click to expand...

Expenses aren't the issue so much as the airlines seeing the writing on the wall that their profitable business travel customers might find bizjets and the new VLJs to be an attractive alternative to 4 hour waits, TSA morons, and taking off their shoes.
 
kevin47881 said:
They (ATA) are doing what they think is necessary to achieve their goal. While I don't agree with the tactics, I think I can understand wanting their expenses to decrease by passing some of the costs to GA.

Anyway, AOPA should be taking the fight to them instead of responding to lying and misrepresentations. The person who continuously throws the second punch rarely wins the fight :(
Click to expand...

but isn't it kinda silly to basically lie about something that can be looked up?

It's one thing to say things like, and I'm para-phrasing here, "GA is causing the airlines delays", which is a general statement and can't really be proven one way or another...

But to say GA a/c at KTEB aren't subject to the same ground delay's the airlines are, when that can be looked up and shown to be a lie? That's a little different....
 
sbonek said:
but isn't it kinda silly to basically lie about something that can be looked up?

It's one thing to say things like, and I'm para-phrasing here, "GA is causing the airlines delays", which is a general statement and can't really be proven one way or another...

But to say GA a/c at KTEB aren't subject to the same ground delay's the airlines are, when that can be looked up and shown to be a lie? That's a little different....
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Yeah, but who is actually going to look it up? We as GA pilots have a vested interest in this debate, but the general public does not really care that much. They will probably believe the ATA over us because, after all, we are the rich, playboy type airplane owners.
 
sbonek said:
but isn't it kinda silly to basically lie about something that can be looked up?
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It is silly but that has not stopped a whole bunch of people the have offices in the District of Columbia from doing the same thing. Any more and they will move to the Spin Zone.

The basic issue is that most, and by most I really mean 99 44/100%, people do not bother to verify any facts given them. They just assume what they are told is true.
 
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smigaldi said:
It is silly but that has not stopped a whole bunch of people the have offices in the District of Columbia from doing the same thing. Any more and they will move to the Spin Zone.

The basic issue is that most, and by most I really mean 99 44/100, people do not bother to verify any facts given them. They just assume what they are told is true.
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Ahem, that's 99 43/100, liar.
 
Isn't "ground delay" Spanish for "slow poke"?

I'm sitting at Hartsfield right now waiting for a pickup at Delta DASH. So, the four airliners waiting to cross over from 10/28 are caused by a business jet tying up a taxiway along the way?

Perhaps it could be one of those little Airnet tubes that feed some cargo work to a few airlines?

:rolleyes:
 
I find it especially galling that the ATA would promulgate a poster about not wanting to "subsidize"... umm... anything.

The airline industry secured massive straight-up grants in the post-9/11 era, and has always benefited from grants and EAS contracts.

Grrr.
 
sbonek said:
but isn't it kinda silly to basically lie about something that can be looked up?

It's one thing to say things like, and I'm para-phrasing here, "GA is causing the airlines delays", which is a general statement and can't really be proven one way or another...

But to say GA a/c at KTEB aren't subject to the same ground delay's the airlines are, when that can be looked up and shown to be a lie? That's a little different....
Click to expand...

Greg nailed it in post #7. No further explanation needed.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, but who is actually going to look it up? We as GA pilots have a vested interest in this debate, but the general public does not really care that much. They will probably believe the ATA over us because, after all, we are the rich, playboy type airplane owners.
Click to expand...
I don't think the general public has any concept this battle is even going on. The commercials don't grab their attention and the debate is beyond their comprehension or caring.

This is really a battle between us (GA) and them (airlines) fought in the arena of congressional committees. The stakes are high for us (can result in the death of GA) and or the airlines the end result is either no difference or winning by eliminating a mosquito buzzing in their ear.
 
AOPA Online said:
"Corporate aircraft utilizing the area's satellite airports are routed under or around the paths flown by the airlines. And when that won't work, they sit on the ground, too."
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This is true, at least in my experience. I've had ground delays going into and out of KTEB many times over a number of years. Recently I got an hour and a half ground hold in Denver when trying to go to KSHD, Shenandoah, Virginia, a lightly used airport which is not even that close to the Washington/Baltimore area. The reason was supposedly "weather", but there were only isolated storms in the area and those were moving out and dissipating. This was late in the evening too. At major airports we don't get to cut in front. We have to wait in line with everyone else, the only exception being lifeguard flights.
 
NC Pilot said:
I don't think the general public has any concept this battle is even going on. The commercials don't grab their attention and the debate is beyond their comprehension or caring....
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Yeah. There was a Fark post on the story of the record airline delays. I read carefully to see if any of the wise guys knew of the airlines' bogus claim on the cause being rich corporate jets. Not a peep.

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2913583
 
sbonek said:
But to say GA a/c at KTEB aren't subject to the same ground delay's the airlines are, when that can be looked up and shown to be a lie? That's a little different....
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Not just KTEB. When I leave N57 (New Garden airport- 25 miles from PHL) and have to pick up my clearance on the ground (don't try it in the air, Phili approach will chew you out), it is a minimum of 4 "call back in 5 minutes" before I can get my clearance.
 
NC Pilot said:
I don't think the general public has any concept this battle is even going on. The commercials don't grab their attention and the debate is beyond their comprehension or caring.

This is really a battle between us (GA) and them (airlines) fought in the arena of congressional committees. The stakes are high for us (can result in the death of GA) and or the airlines the end result is either no difference or winning by eliminating a mosquito buzzing in their ear.
Click to expand...

true... I'm not sure if the airlines are getting much traction or not... I've been watching for articles based on the "facts" that the airlines are putting out there, but haven't seen any yet...

everytime I visit http://www.smartskies.org/ , I throw up a little in my mouth... I did notice something kinda funny about that website, after the picture of a corporate jet with the phrase "This isn't your flight, but your paying for it"... it shows another picture of a bunch of bizjets and they appear to be behind an airliner... wait, I thought it was the other way around :D
 
ATA is full of the proverbial crap.

I've sat any number of times waiting for airline traffic to clear. One memorable time was at Sugarland (GA reliever in the Houston area) where both I and a G-V sat for 25 minutes waiting IFR release. The issue was traffic coming off of IAH and HOU. Needless to say, the G-V guys were NOT happy.

I've also sat - holding - in a Citation II trying to get into Miami. No delays for the airlines, 20+ minutes of holding for the Citation.

GA gets a lower priority in the ATC system. If that changes under a fee system, you can bet the airlines will be very, very angry...
 
wsuffa said:
ATA is full of the proverbial crap.

I've sat any number of times waiting for airline traffic to clear. One memorable time was at Sugarland (GA reliever in the Houston area) where both I and a G-V sat for 25 minutes waiting IFR release. The issue was traffic coming off of IAH and HOU. Needless to say, the G-V guys were NOT happy.

I've also sat - holding - in a Citation II trying to get into Miami. No delays for the airlines, 20+ minutes of holding for the Citation.

GA gets a lower priority in the ATC system. If that changes under a fee system, you can bet the airlines will be very, very angry...
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But accorting to Smartskies we get to hop in front of all the airlines.

http://www.smartskies.org/LearningCenter/Videos/Gridlock.htm
 
Did anyone listen to Bob Poole's PODCAST on AvWeb about user-fees ? I found the podcast very informative and Mr. Poole makes an arguement why GA should be supporting user-fees. I traded a couple e-mails with Mr. Poole. He seems reasonable (no pun intended) and well intentioned. He pointed me to some additional information that the Reason Group has put together.

Here's the link: http://www.reason.org/airtraffic/
 
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