Gross negligence to fly?

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I'm flying with a CFI in a complex airplane.

The first time we flew - after the 2nd take-off the landing gear door on the pilot side wouldn't close.

That was on a short XC so we headed home. I shoot an ILS while he was messing with the gear using the manual pump to get the gear down, took him a while but he got it.

Uneventful landing, after which I told/asked him - get it fixed before our next flight.

Its not his plane but he is close with the owner. He took it to the shop, they couldn't get it to fail again, said everything is fine.

Next time we flew - same landing gear door issue on gear up, but the gear down works perfectly.

What should I do?
He is an experienced CFI and said he is comfortable flying in this condition.
I have renters insurance, but would it be considered gross negligence on my behalf if we have actual damage related to the issue?

Thanks.
 
Intermittent failures are frustrating for everyone.

"Could not duplicate - ops check good"

Is it a Cessna 210?
 
Unregistered said:
It is a 210, is it common?
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I'm sure some mechanic will chime in but I flew one years ago that had problems like that which turned out to have something to do with the hydraulic sequencing valves if I remember correctly. The gear doors would sometimes stay open. I remember them trying adjustments and repairs (don't ask me what kind) which would work for awhile. I heard they finally did the mod which removed the gear doors, but that was after I no longer worked there.
 
I also know someone with an older 210 that took 2 or 3 shops to get it right. Engine driven pump, not electric. El Paso shop fixed, then they found a good one in Vegas too - pm if names needed.
 
We had that problem with the 210 that we used to have on line, too. I remember doing a low pass at Gaston's a couple years back so people could visually inspect and confirm that it was just doors open. Never had difficulty getting the gear down, though. I don't remember what the cause was found to be. It was a rental, so I'm not the one that typically gets the details. It's certainly not an uncommon occurrence, though.
 
Tell us the Aircraft type and YEAR. With Cessna retracts, the YEAR is important....About every 3 years Cessna changed the rig. Sometimes the gear door actuator BREAKS, sangging the dooor shut and the MLGs can't come out.

On some years that is less of an issue. Look up "Uvalde Gear Door Mod".
 
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Another good rule of thumb when dealing with retracts... If you go to retract the gear and there is some problem where the gear isn't going up or a door isn't closing or something, don't try to force it. Just get it back down, locked and leave it that way. Down gear is good gear.
 
Thanks for the replays everybody.
Its a 1967 210.
I mentioned some of stuff I learned from the links to the CFI.
The thing is - he is renting and the owner is deployed over seas.
Its a bit like playing broken telephone...

I've flown again, and everything was fine, up, down, everything works great.

I appreciate everybody's knowledge and experience.

I'm still trying to figure out if its IRRESPONSIBLE and DANGERS of me to fly a plane with that condition (in the insurance company eyes).
What do you say?
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks for the replays everybody.
Its a 1967 210.
I mentioned some of stuff I learned from the links to the CFI.
The thing is - he is renting and the owner is deployed over seas.
Its a bit like playing broken telephone...

I've flown again, and everything was fine, up, down, everything works great.

I appreciate everybody's knowledge and experience.

I'm still trying to figure out if its IRRESPONSIBLE and DANGERS of me to fly a plane with that condition (in the insurance company eyes).
What do you say?
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You are the PIC, you make the call. The insurance company should cover it if it has been inspected by an A&P and returned to service.
In my view, every time you fly an airplane some part of it could fail. These are high performance machines which require regular maintenance. Sometimes that mx happens after something breaks, that doesn't mean that the pilot neglected his/her duty to determine if the aircraft is airworthy.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks for the replays everybody.
Its a 1967 210.
I mentioned some of stuff I learned from the links to the CFI.
The thing is - he is renting and the owner is deployed over seas.
Its a bit like playing broken telephone...

I've flown again, and everything was fine, up, down, everything works great.

I appreciate everybody's knowledge and experience.

I'm still trying to figure out if its IRRESPONSIBLE and DANGERS of me to fly a plane with that condition (in the insurance company eyes).
What do you say?
Click to expand...
Look at it this way, how'd you like the report on your next flight to look like this:

"After departing the pilot noticed that the left main landing gear door failed to close when the gear was retracted. When the landing gear was extended for landing the left main "hung" in a partially extended position. Further attempts to fully deploy the gear were unsuccessful. During the subsequent landing the airplane cartwheeled when the partially extended leg swung aft. Both the pilot and CFI rated copilot suffered major non-life threatening injuries. The pilot further stated that he "had problems with the gear on the three flights prior to the accident."
 
That is a year in which the config. had lots of problems, and the door linkages CAN and HAVE kept the gear from functioning. I think you're done flying it.
 
bbchien said:
That is a year in which the config. had lots of problems, and the door linkages CAN and HAVE kept the gear from functioning. I think you're done flying it.
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Agreed. The late 60s ones were/are notorious for this. I've known three owners of that vintage, all had gear problems of one sort or another. One minor, the other two -- things were getting hung up due to wearing of parts. One elected to yank the gear doors off -- figured he liked his undamaged hadn't-been-landed-on-its-belly-yet airplane more than he cared about a few knots in cruise.

The pros who *really* know how to fix them correctly are few and far-between, from what I've seen of people who've taken them to shop after shop and then given up and pulled the gear doors off.

Once in a while, someone gets lucky and found someone who really knows that system well. I think you can up those odds considerably if you call a type club like CPA and find out who they recommend.

Any mechanic can stand there are stare at them while swinging the gear, scratching their head, which sadly, seems to be the commonly used technique for stalling while they call people. Labor charges go pretty high, pretty fast on fixing the gear on these models.

There seem to be only a handful of mechanics who really know the parts that break/wear-out, and the appropriate adjustments to make the problem go away the FIRST time it's in the shop. Very few of those. Most will have you in and out at least three times figuring it out, from what those above owners experienced and related to me.

Since this is a rental, and worse, the owner's a long ways away -- I agree with Doc Bruce. Just stop flying it. The owner needs to come deal with his gear issues.
 
Unregistered said:
Its a 1967 210.
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The airplane I was talking about was also a 1967 model. In later years they got smart and redesigned the gear retraction system and eliminated the gear doors.

Like COFlyBoy I think you need to decide for yourself. I don't think the insurance company will consider it irresponsible on your part as long as there is evidence that it was actually looked at and returned to service if that is what you are concerned about. The insurance company is probably not ignorant about this model of 210 and has factored that into the rates they charge the owner. All airplanes have weak points in their design and this is definitely one of the weak points of the early 210s.
 
I have noticed that A&Ps frequently want to stop looking for a problem when they do one test and don't have an issue. Intermittent issues are especially annoying, as they are difficult to reproduce and therefore difficult to diagnose. It's the same thing with a car.

You have to decide for yourself whether you're ok with flying it or not. If twice in a row you've had the problem that has required abnormal action to result in a safe landing, I would say the plane needs more work until it gets flown again. I personally would not fly a plane that I had to use the hand pump to get the gear down as a known problem going in. If nothing else, why do you want to put yourself in a situation where you're going to increase your workload like that?

As far as the insurance goes, I think it depends on the company and who you come up with. If an A&P looked at it and deemed that it was acceptable, then that's a good recourse. But I really care less about insurance and more about my safety. Being in a hospital bed is not when you'll be wondering "Did the insurance company cover this?"
 
Everskyward said:
The airplane I was talking about was also a 1967 model. In later years they got smart and redesigned the gear retraction system and eliminated the gear doors.

Like COFlyBoy I think you need to decide for yourself. I don't think the insurance company will consider it irresponsible on your part as long as there is evidence that it was actually looked at and returned to service if that is what you are concerned about. The insurance company is probably not ignorant about this model of 210 and has factored that into the rates they charge the owner. All airplanes have weak points in their design and this is definitely one of the weak points of the early 210s.
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And the plane I was talking about was a 1968 H model.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm flying with a CFI in a complex airplane.

The first time we flew - after the 2nd take-off the landing gear door on the pilot side wouldn't close.

That was on a short XC so we headed home. I shoot an ILS while he was messing with the gear using the manual pump to get the gear down, took him a while but he got it.

Uneventful landing, after which I told/asked him - get it fixed before our next flight.

Its not his plane but he is close with the owner. He took it to the shop, they couldn't get it to fail again, said everything is fine.

Next time we flew - same landing gear door issue on gear up, but the gear down works perfectly.

What should I do?
He is an experienced CFI and said he is comfortable flying in this condition.
I have renters insurance, but would it be considered gross negligence on my behalf if we have actual damage related to the issue?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

No, that does not qualify for gross negligence. Motive and intent are involved in Gross Negligence.
 
denverpilot said:
The pros who *really* know how to fix them correctly are few and far-between, from what I've seen of people who've taken them to shop after shop and then given up and pulled the gear doors off.
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This is very true. Even on the simpler gear of a 172RG the learning curve was steep. I've yet to play with a 210
 
You're not going to get charged with "gross negliance" if it's taken to a shop and the shop says it's fixed. You did what you could, you're not an A&P.

Gross negligence would be flying passengers on sight seeing flights knowing the gear was busted, knowing the spar was damaged, and just not caring, because you'd rather just make money doing the flights instead of fixing the airplane.
 
Appreciate all the info.

So to answer the question is - No, cause the A&P said its ok.

The real question - should I fly the plane, knowing that the chances for a failure are higher.

That one I'll have to think about, I'm tending to go with 3 strikes (2 already happened).

I highly doubt the owner is going to do anything about it, and the CFI is comfortable enough to not stop flying it all together.

I don't feel like getting into a life changing experience like that.
Too bad, it has a nice GPS and pretty cheep to fly, but I guess the money I'll be spending on a different plane (and probably a different CFI, and airport) is nothing considering a bad accident.

Really appreciate everybody's help.
 
jesse said:
You're not going to get charged with "gross negliance" if it's taken to a shop and the shop says it's fixed. You did what you could, you're not an A&P.

Gross negligence would be flying passengers on sight seeing flights knowing the gear was busted, knowing the spar was damaged, and just not caring, because you'd rather just make money doing the flights instead of fixing the airplane.
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That is a reasonably solid analysis of what it takes to "make" a Gross Negligence case.
 
Unregistered said:
Appreciate all the info.

So to answer the question is - No, cause the A&P said its ok.

The real question - should I fly the plane, knowing that the chances for a failure are higher.

That one I'll have to think about, I'm tending to go with 3 strikes (2 already happened).

I highly doubt the owner is going to do anything about it, and the CFI is comfortable enough to not stop flying it all together.

I don't feel like getting into a life changing experience like that.
Too bad, it has a nice GPS and pretty cheep to fly, but I guess the money I'll be spending on a different plane (and probably a different CFI, and airport) is nothing considering a bad accident.

Really appreciate everybody's help.
Click to expand...


If you like the plane and they say "fly it", I say fly it. I have landed an old 210 I was ferrying in on the gear doors. Those and the prop were the only damage, a complete non event. There is no record of the event in my "file" at the FAA or with any insurance carrier that I know of. If they say it's good, they are assuming the liability it's good. Landing a 210 gear up (or any plane for that matter) is a non event. You just land lower, the cool thing is ground effect is even stonger for a smoother landing. It is extremely rare to sustain injury in a gear up.
 
Henning said:
If you like the plane and they say "fly it", I say fly it. I have landed an old 210 I was ferrying in on the gear doors. Those and the prop were the only damage, a complete non event. There is no record of the event in my "file" at the FAA or with any insurance carrier that I know of. If they say it's good, they are assuming the liability it's good. Landing a 210 gear up (or any plane for that matter) is a non event. You just land lower, the cool thing is ground effect is even stonger for a smoother landing. It is extremely rare to sustain injury in a gear up.
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Everyone i know who has called it the best landing of their lives
 
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