Great flight to Wisconsin

[Dave Siciliano]

Trip from Dallas to Portage was great today (stopped in Rockford on the way). Three hours to Rockford. Over 200 knot ground speed in the climb and over 250 enroute.

Sure is cold here though. Had to hanger the plane and I can't get it out until Sunday. Oh well!!

Hope it isn't too bad going back

 

[gismo]

Trip from Dallas to Portage was great today (stopped in Rockford on the way). Three hours to Rockford. Over 200 knot ground speed in the climb and over 250 enroute.

Sure is cold here though. Had to hanger the plane and I can't get it out until Sunday. Oh well!!

Hope it isn't too bad going back

You think it's cold now? Our forecast is for a potential 100 year record low tonight (-21F) with windchills in the 40-50 below zero.

So, do you have time to get together in the fridged north this trip? I think I'm pretty much wide open this weekend.

 

[jesse]

..Cold it is....
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KTOB 180255Z AUTO 30015G19KT 10SM SCT090 M24/M29 A3070 RMK AO2

[/FONT]Which is about -11 F ..and still dropping.[FONT=Monospace,Courier]
[/FONT]

 

[Dave Siciliano]

You think it's cold now? Our forecast is for a potential 100 year record low tonight (-21F) with windchills in the 40-50 below zero.

So, do you have time to get together in the fridged north this trip? I think I'm pretty much wide open this weekend.

Can't get the plane out of the hanger until Sunday. Could link up then if you'd like. Have to stop in Jannesville to drop someone off and in Rockford to pick someone up to ride back to Dallas with me. What are your thoughts?

 

[gismo]

Can't get the plane out of the hanger until Sunday. Could link up then if you'd like. Have to stop in Jannesville to drop someone off and in Rockford to pick someone up to ride back to Dallas with me. What are your thoughts?

Well I could head over your way on either Saturday or Sunday. Aside from the cold the wx is supposed to be pretty good. I'm waiting tomorrow morning for a CDROM update and a replacement roll steering converter which are coming via Fedex and I'd like to swap in the converter (takes about 30 mins) before I go anywhere. The one I've got is radiating on 125.00 which is what I normally get assigned for departure and arrival. I've got the engine heaters on so I should be good to go tomorrow.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

What ever works. I think the girls what to go shopping later today in Madison. Let me know what you can work out and I'll meet you. If you'd like to come today, I have a rental car and can meet you at Portage or Madison. Tomorrow works also. Call me at 214.632.7132 when you can.

Dave

 

[bstratt]

Shoot, Janesville has a great restaurant and I would have flown up tomorrow to meet you but one of my partners already has the plane booked.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Sorry. We were pretty much playing things by ear. Lance flew up and I got to see his new avionics. He came to the mall for awhile and we got to visit a bit.

I watched (and shivered) as he cranked up.

There was a Citation on the ramp; started talking to the pilot. Former ComAir guy, real nice. Flying a rock band around that was giving a concert here tonight. Lots of fun to chat with him while Lance was idling on the ramp (I assume programing all his new avionic stuff for awhile)

 

[gismo]

Lance was idling on the ramp (I assume programing all his new avionic stuff for awhile)

Mostly I was waiting for the oil temp to come up on the left engine as the heaters only managed to keep it at 40F.

Great seeing you again Dave, but lets try for warmer weather next time.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I agree. Let's get together when its waaaarrrrmmmer!!

BTW, didn't see a beacon on; do you use the strobes instead? They were blinkin away.

Do you have any idea who the Citation on the ramp belonged to---Can you say Moody Blues

The ramp guy came in uttering explicitives under his breath as he had to go back and forth behind you several times when you were waiting for oil temps and he was shivering! I didn't tell him I knew you

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Look like freezing drizzle back at Big D today. It will be a challenge to get in there. Since it's a several hour flight we'll launch about 2 and check the weather on the way. Lots of other places to stop if we can't get back; so, we'll make adjustments on the way.


Dave

 

[SCCutler]

Looks like mild improvement Dave, but (as I sit here on the 16th floor), not too pretty.

Be safe!

 

[gismo]

I agree. Let's get together when its waaaarrrrmmmer!!

BTW, didn't see a beacon on; do you use the strobes instead? They were blinkin away.

Do you have any idea who the Citation on the ramp belonged to---Can you say Moody Blues

The ramp guy came in uttering explicitives under his breath as he had to go back and forth behind you several times when you were waiting for oil temps and he was shivering! I didn't tell him I knew you

My tail beacon (a Wheelen strobe) has picked up the nasty habit of not flashing for a while when you turn it on once in a while. It always starts up if I touch it so I haven't been able to figure out if the problem is in the strobe or the power feed. So for now I turn the wing/tail strobes on after starting engines if the tail isn't blinking. Either system qualifies as an anti-collision light.

The moody blues, are they still alive?

I suppose I could have turned sideways, but I thought I was far enough from the jet etc that my prop blast at idle wouldn't cause any harm. I guess I never considered the artificial wind chill factor.

 

[wsuffa]

The moody blues, are they still alive?

Yeah, they are. I saw 'em not long ago. Not the same. Definately not the same.

Glad I didn't pay good money for the ticket....

 

[Dave Siciliano]

My tail beacon (a Wheelen strobe) has picked up the nasty habit of not flashing for a while when you turn it on once in a while. It always starts up if I touch it so I haven't been able to figure out if the problem is in the strobe or the power feed. So for now I turn the wing/tail strobes on after starting engines if the tail isn't blinking. Either system qualifies as an anti-collision light.

The moody blues, are they still alive?

I suppose I could have turned sideways, but I thought I was far enough from the jet etc that my prop blast at idle wouldn't cause any harm. I guess I never considered the artificial wind chill factor.

I wouldn't worry a lot about it; I'm sure he would have been equally boisterous about something else if you hadn't been there. That's a very deep ramp and you could have pulled up, but so what?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Looks like mild improvement Dave, but (as I sit here on the 16th floor), not too pretty.

Be safe!

Spike:

This flight is why they made P-Barons!!

Great flight back except for 40 to 50 knot head winds. Ain't it great to still have a ground speed of 160 something with a 40 knot head wind? I did get great winds going up; usually, have to pay the price the other way. I the winds had been much stronger going up, I might have gotten there before I left

This weather gave new meaning to ca caaa caaaa cold! -19--no thanks!! High today of 11--that's O.K. I'll just stay in Dallas, thank you.

The forecast had icing Airmets over most of our route back. Southern Illinois had one from the surface to 17,000 and would be in clouds. From southern Missouri to northern Arkansas, temperature inversion. Low ceilings, cloud layers up to FL250 with freeze level at the surface. Dallas area getting freezing drizzle and ceilings of 600 feet with temp/dew point spread of one degree.

We filed for 12,000 fully intending to divert if necessary and to fly in in the morning. We were between layers most of the flight. Over Arkansas the Nexrad showed freezing parcip but we didn't pick up a thing. We had every system on the Baron on: the alternator loads were over 50% one each one. But......no ice. On the approach at Dallas we were warned that folks were getting light rime ice from 2500 to the surface. We didn't get a thing--well, a little on the front of the boots is all. What was really great is we were able to test the conditions in the P-Baron. Since we didn't encounter anything challenging, we just came home. Saw the runway lights about 700 feet AGL on the ILS. It's what this plane and all the training is all about!!

Dave

 

[Richard]

Dave, what a great flight to test all systems and the electrical load in cold temps. Nice write up.

Lance, could it be slight corrosion at the strobe terminals?

 

[gismo]

Dave, what a great flight to test all systems and the electrical load in cold temps. Nice write up.

Yep, gotta love it when a challenging flight goes well.

Lance, could it be slight corrosion at the strobe terminals?

It's possible. I can't remember how the strobe is connected to power but I think it's a couple knife disconnects. The strobe is self contained but I suppose there could be a poor connection to the flashlamp itself. I think I'll just disconnect and reconnect everything and see if the problem re-occurs. It only started doing this since I got the plane back from the avionics shop but I doubt they had anything to do with it.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

BTW, I was finding niece speak much more difficult to deal with than flying the plane through the forecast icing conditions

Before going to the mall, I asked my youngest (15) what she needed.

She popped off: a coat, kicks and poof. Took me awhile to piece together that meant a coat, shoes and perfume. Several other colorful terms used in her own language; just recall that one.

Dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Can you retrospectively apply Dr Bruce's icing formula, Ive always wanted the chance to see how it works.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave:

Are you asking me to apply that formula? Perhaps you can point to exactly what you're asking. Are you talking about how he plans flying into those conditions?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Does someone still have it?
It was a GoNogo decision algorithm, based upon current/reported conditions and existence of outs.
I just like to test such things in real life, see if it is close or maybe needs updating.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I may have it somewhere, but, I believe Bruce was discussing outs if in a non-K-ice plane (unless I'm mistaken).

I can relate our reasoning to you. Outs were pretty limited except turning around (which we were prepared to do).

The Airmet for southern Illinois was surface to 17,000 (of course in visible precip). There was no visible precip.

The Airmet for Southern Missouri and northern Arkansas was surface to 12,000. There was a temperature inversion and 9,000 was near zero C, colder lower and higher. We were at 12,000 and watching the temperature gauge. There was visible moisture on the Nexrad display. Radar showed some red areas which we avoided. We were between layers at about -2C. There were pilot reports of icing lower, none higher. Tops were reported in the mid twenties. Also, the visible precip showed a thinner area to penetrate farther west. We were prepared to request a heading west or to climb if icing was encountered. If it was more than what we were comfortable with, we would have turned back in the direction we had come from.

As we proceeded, we just didn't encounter any ice. We did go into clouds for a period of 10 to 15 minutes as we neared the end of the visible precip displayed. At that point, if icing was encountered, we would have continued on.

We listened to the Pireps. The only moderate icing pirep in the area was from a V-tail Bonanza that was lower. Didn't know what equipment he had aboard, but pretty well discounted it. Had it been a TKS certified K-ice aircraft, we would have weighed it more carefully. There are few or none of those, so we discounted it as someone that didn't have our K-ice capability. The report was also at a lower altitude where it was colder.

On the approach into Addison, we were told planes were getting light rime icing from 2500 to the surface. Ceiling was reported to be 600 feet.

Looking at the weather, there was almost no wind. Temp and dew point were very close together (one degree apart). There was no system above--that is cloud tops were 6,000 as we descended for the approach. So, there wasn't a large system above dropping warm water into the cold air below. We could handle light rime; we were more worried about the ceiling and visibility. Had we encountered a problem, we would have climbed back on top and proceeded back north where there were fields reporting ceilings of 1700 feet as we over flew them (isn't the Metars feature on the 396 great!).

We headed on in with all de-ice systems on and didn't encounter any reportable amount of ice--could have done it in a non-K-ice aircraft in retrospect. We didn't believe we would be in icing conditions long if we descended at over 500 fpm from 2500 to 600. Kept our speed up and didn't use flaps until we broke out.

Best,

Dave

 

[Richard]

Dave, could you clarify your use of flaps on the approach? You say you broke out at 700 on the ILS, there was no visible precip, but didn't pop the flaps until you broke out.

It sounds like you delayed flap deployment. If not, would that be a normal profile for you?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Richard:
When making an approach in icing conditions, it's highly recommended flaps not be used and speed on the approach be kept a little higher to prevent a possible stall.

On the P-Baron, approach flaps are used to help slow the plane down. They are normally deployed at some point before the descent begins. In this plane, approach flaps and the gear may be lowered at 176 knots. If you point the nose down with out them out, the plane really accelerates.

My normal approach procedure is 21" of MP; cruise RPM; cruise fuel flow approach flaps before the IAF or glide slope descent in this case and at glide slope intercept, lowering the gear gives the descent rate required and about 120 knots indicated air speed. In this case, I wanted to stay just a bit faster in case I picked up ice; so, I left the approach flaps up and just lowered the gear at glide slope intercept. That provided a little faster airspeed as I came down. When I visually saw the airport environment (approach lights first, then the runway), I deployed the flaps.

This brought me down just a little faster, kept the plane cleaner to keep ice accumulations lower behind the boots and didn't change the plane configuration into something unknown if ice began to accumulate. Got me down a little faster and kept the plane cleaner if I needed to go around.

There's a great research piece one of the Bonanza Net guys did in a V-tail Bonanza. Deliberately put the plane in icing conditions and tested it to see what the effects where on handling and stall. (He is a very high time former airline guy and did this with warmer air below in case he needed an out.) Of course, when ice accumulated, it changes the handling, increased the stall speed and takes away from the aerodynamics. His recommendations afterward were to do exactly what I did.

If one slows the plane and deploys flaps it can allow ice to accumulate behind the boots more easily as the angle of attack is changed and the plane is moving through the air a little slower.



Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Oh! I might add, Sunday night one of the Bonanza Board guys was piloting the plane that crashed at SSA (I believe). Said on short final, the plane just began to drop as if it was in a downdraft. He added power and pitched up but still dropped it in short of the runway. We're still getting details and trying to keep his spirits up. He and his wife are O.K., but the plane is totaled.

Another reason to keep the speed up a little is to compensate for gusts, and downdrafts. There crazy inversions can hold a lot of surprises.

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Oh! I might add, Sunday night one of the Bonanza Board guys was piloting the plane that crashed at SSA (I believe). Said on short final, the plane just began to drop as if it was in a downdraft. He added power and pitched up but still dropped it in short of the runway. We're still getting details and trying to keep his spirits up. He and his wife are O.K., but the plane is totaled.

Another reason to keep the speed up a little is to compensate for gusts, and downdrafts. There crazy inversions can hold a lot of surprises.

Dave

Crashed here yesterday, Dave. KSSF, my home field.

Quote from one of the fire chiefs "They say any landing you walk away from is a good landing. And they walked away."

The location is south of the airfield... so it was not on a straight-in approach. News reports last night said the engine quit.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA022106.plane_crash.ceac711.html

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Crashed here yesterday, Dave. KSSF, my home field.

Quote from one of the fire chiefs "They say any landing you walk away from is a good landing. And they walked away."

The location is south of the airfield... so it was not on a straight-in approach. News reports last night said the engine quit.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA022106.plane_crash.ceac711.html

Yes Bill, you are of course correct. The pilot shot the VOR approach. Entire procedure.

 

[wsuffa]

Yes Bill, you are of course correct. The pilot shot the VOR approach. Entire procedure.

He would have had to. Ceilings were about 500' yesterday, that approach has an MDA of 960' (400' AGL) straight into RWY 32, and 600' AGL circling.

I'm not sure of the exact location of the spot where he landed, but there is a cleared field, surrounded by trees, on Chavanaux Road near the approach end of Rwy 32. If it's the same field I'm thinking of, it's a little south of the approach radial... and it is the field that I always look at on takeoff from 14 as THE place to put the plane down if I have to. Less than a mile from the end of Rwy 14/32. If it's the same field, he did a nice job.

Given the weather, he's very, very lucky. I hope it wasn't a fuel issue!

EDIT: FAA has posted the preliminary:

********************************************************************************
** Report created 2/21/2006 Record 8 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 510LM Make/Model: BE35 Description: 35 Bonanza
Date: 02/20/2006 Time: 2037

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: SAN ANTONIO State: TX Country: US

DESCRIPTION
ACFT WAS ON A VOR APPROACH TO RWY 32 AT STINSON AIRPORT (SSF). PILOT CALLED
ON RADIO, STATED THAT THE ENGINE HAD QUIT. PILOT MADE A FORCED LANDING 1.6
NM SSE OF STINSON AIRPORT, SAN ANTONIO, TX

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: 202059Z 03004KT 4SM BR OVC005 08/07 A3010

OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Approach Operation: General Aviation

Departed: (ELP) EL PASO, TX Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: (SSF) SAN ANTONIO,TX Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:

FAA FSDO: SAN ANTONIO, TX (SW17) Entry date: 02/21/2006

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks Bill:

We'll wait and see what happens. Hate to hear that 'bout the engine quitting. He didn't bring that out. We're all just trying to be supportive at this point.

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Thanks Bill:

We'll wait and see what happens. Hate to hear that 'bout the engine quitting. He didn't bring that out. We're all just trying to be supportive at this point.

Dave

Understood. I also don't really trust the news to get it right.

 

[Richard]

Thanks, Dave, but you said you weren't in icing conditions on the approach, hence my question.

BTW: I think every pilot should be comfortable with high speed, flaps 0 approach to landing. I am, for the reason you mentioned and also for landings in high winds.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks, Dave, but you said you weren't in icing conditions on the approach, hence my question.

BTW: I think every pilot should be comfortable with high speed, flaps 0 approach to landing. I am, for the reason you mentioned and also for landings in high winds.

Richard:

Approach told us there were Pireps of icing from 2500 feet to the surface. The temp was below zero C with visible moisture. I flew the approach as if I would encounter icing on the way down in case I did. Had I done it the other way, I would have had to bring up flaps, try to speed up and reconfigure trim, etc. in the middle of icing conditions on an ILS with a fairly low ceiling; so, I chose to fly as if I would encounter ice. Turned out I didn't.

Dave

 

[Richard]

Richard:

Approach told us there were Pireps of icing from 2500 feet to the surface. The temp was below zero C with visible moisture. I flew the approach as if I would encounter icing on the way down in case I did. Had I done it the other way, I would have had to bring up flaps, try to speed up and reconfigure trim, etc. in the middle of icing conditions on an ILS with a fairly low ceiling; so, I chose to fly as if I would encounter ice. Turned out I didn't.

Dave

I guess I missed that part. Thanks again.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Trip from Dallas to Portage was great today (stopped in Rockford on the way). Three hours to Rockford. Over 200 knot ground speed in the climb and over 250 enroute.

Sure is cold here though. Had to hanger the plane and I can't get it out until Sunday. Oh well!!

Dave,

Sorry I missed you again! Ended up not going to Michigan until Sat AM, and returned a lot later than originally planned as well. It was a great trip though... Here's a teaser, I'll post the full write-up later: