Grade A Cotton?

A

alexl

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Alex
Hi there,

I am considering purchasing a 1953 PA-22-135. The current owner states the aircraft was last recovered in the late 80s with COTTON AND DOPE! He states that the owner at the time was a purest. The aircraft looks great and apparently the covering still tests fine at each annual.

Was grade A cotton even available into the late 80s? What are the chances that an old-timer chose not to get an STC and the covering is actually an illegal Ceconite?

Either way, i would be looking to recover the airplane sometime in my ownership-though i would like to get 5 years of flying before taking out of service for a recover.
 
Open an access cover and look at the inside. Do you see any Ceconite or Stits stamps? What color is the original coating?
 
alexl said:
Was grade A cotton even available into the late 80s? What are the chances that an old-timer chose not to get an STC and the covering is actually an illegal Ceconite?
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Grade A cotton is still available today and is still used. STC not required to recover an aircraft but a 337 is. Don't know what you mean by "illegal Ceconite?"
 
unable to inspect through a plate, as the airplane is in another state. Just struck me as odd, that even a purest, would use cotton into the late 80s. I think this is the first airplane i have seen with a covering in cotton after 1965.

Is an STC not required when switching from the original (cotton) to another of the systems? I meant illegal as in the airplane covered in ceconite without an stc for ceconite, written in the logs as cotton.

Airplane has been hangared since recover - what are my chances of getting 5 years before recover if it is indeed cotton?
 
If it really is cotton? Statistics aren't in your favor. You need a good impartial tube and fabric guy to inspect it. Not just for the cover, but for the airframe that hasn't been looked at in 30 years.
 
alexl said:
unable to inspect through a plate, as the airplane is in another state. Just struck me as odd, that even a purest, would use cotton into the late 80s. I think this is the first airplane i have seen with a covering in cotton after 1965.

Is an STC not required when switching from the original (cotton) to another of the systems? I meant illegal as in the airplane covered in ceconite without an stc for ceconite, written in the logs as cotton.

Airplane has been hangared since recover - what are my chances of getting 5 years before recover if it is indeed cotton?
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Someone is probably more on top of this than I am, but I think the two types of dope used to cover cotton typically in the early 70’s had an acid base and would slowly deteriorate cotton fabrics. Strongly doubt if you will get 5 more years of use on a cotton fabric that already is 30 years old.
 
understood, im under no impression that it isn't a risk to purchase even with the intent on recovering. on the other hand, most tripacers i find have the most recent cover job in the 60s and 70s with ceconite or polyfiber. I think i would prefer an airplane that has 15-30 less years since the airframe has been inspected than one that has a "lifetime" fabric.
 
alexl said:
Is an STC not required when switching from the original (cotton) to another of the systems? I meant illegal as in the airplane covered in ceconite without an stc for ceconite
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An STC is a separate part/process certification. An STC in this case is required for a mfg'r (Poly Fiber, Stitz, Stewarts) for them to sell their entire process to the public. A person could still use an approved fabric (ceconite, cotton, etc), obtain FAA approval, and recover their aircraft on a 337 as a major alteration without an STC.

alexl said:
written in the logs as cotton.
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There should be a 337 to go with your logbook entry on the cotton. An experienced mechanic will tell you if its cotton or ceconite.

alexl said:
what are my chances of getting 5 years before recover if it is indeed cotton?
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A good cotton job has a 20-30 year life if properly cared for. You're on the downslope of life-expectancy. I would defer to your mechanic, but could be possible. Unless you plan to park it outside after years parked in a hangar then doubtful.
 
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Briar Rabbit said:
but I think the two types of dope used to cover cotton typically in the early 70’s had an acid base and would slowly deteriorate cotton fabrics
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Cotton mainly suffered from UV deterioration. Some old dopes were made using acid but over time the dopes would continue to shrink and crack causing the natural cotton fibers to dry rot first.
 
Yep. Cotton used taughtening dope. Dacrons use non-taughtening dope.

The good thing about dope is its easy to repair. The bad thing is its very flammable. The flammability is worse on cotton than dacron.
 
Stewartb said:
The good thing about dope is its easy to repair
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And in my opinion, a dope finish gave the best color, depth, and shine of any other product out there. Too bad the stuff tries to kill you.
 
Lots of good information here and I appreciate it. My wife fell in love with this tripacer, so just need to make the decision if we are okay with a project. I have considered the approach of taking it out of service 2-3 months each winter and do one wing at a time and then hen fuselage and control surface groups over the course of several years
 
alexl said:
Lots of good information here and I appreciate it. My wife fell in love with this tripacer, so just need to make the decision if we are okay with a project. I have considered the approach of taking it out of service 2-3 months each winter and do one wing at a time and then hen fuselage and control surface groups over the course of several years
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I'd recommend recovering both wings at the same time. But discuss with your mechanic/IA your plan before deciding. I would also recommend the Stewarts System if you plan to be personally involved.
 
I remember a friend walking into my mechanic’s hanger when I was in the middle of building a Cub. He asked my mechanic if he had time to re-cover his Cub when mine was finished. My mecahnic said sure. My friend asked how much it would cost. My mechanic said the cover was the cheap part but don’t even think about it unless you have $50K to spend. The point is, once you cut the old cover off, there’s lots of old stuff that needs attention.

It’s always better to buy a completed project than to undertake one. You’ll be money ahead in the end.
 
Unless it's a super awesome plane worth maybe doing a recover, I'd pass, cotton ain't exactly a lifetime fabric like the modern man made stuff.
 
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