Gotta have Useful Load

denverpilot said:
I thought his reply was reserved. Ownership costs to properly maintain and fly an aircraft are a very large percentage over and above the purchase price.

He was trying to get your attention about that, not insult you.
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I understand what he was getting at, and I appreciate anyone giving me honest advice as to the ownership of aircraft. I don't mean to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but when you begin a reply to a question with laughing symbols and ROFL (rolling on the floor laughing), that's very disrespectful. I am fully aware that it costs money to operate and airplane, but I was a little shocked by the 25K figure. I apologize for my negative relpy, but getting laughed at irritates me just a little. I want to thank everyone for the helpful comments, and by all means, keep em coming. :)
 
OkieFlyer said:
I've heard more than one pilot say that a Cessna 182 will haul anything you can fit inside it. Obviously that's an imbellishment, but will they safely fly a little overwight? The reason I ask is because I'm in need of a plane with a 1200 lb useful load, with plenty of leg room in the back, for less than 50K. The 182N has a great useful load at around 1300 lb, but the few that I've come across are too pricey. There are lots of earlier 182s on the market in my price range, but the useful loads aren't as good. Basically, I need to haul 850 lbs of people, some luggage, and enough gas for 2.5 to 3 hrs with reserves. I've learned that we large people are sure limited when it comes to airplanes. Any suggestions?
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Actually, it's not much of an embellishment on a 182. Once you try to actually stick things inside, you'll figure out why, you can't get much into it. It will haul what you can manage to get into it pretty well.

With what you state as your mission profile, you need at least a 182 to do the job, better a 205 or 206. You can also go with a PA 28-235hp series or a PA-32, but you'll be paying 182 or greater prices for apple to apple aircraft. There is no "cheap" plane that will do what you want.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Yeah the RG is a little out of my budget. Nice planes though. I don't care if it's a beer can with wings, as long as it'll fly. I don't need "cherry". And no, I didn't have any idea I'd need an extra 25K. That sucks. If that's the case, I might as well just just give up then, 'cause I aint got it. :sad:

May I ask, just what in the heck do I need another 25k for?:dunno:
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That's probably a good idea, because to buy a model that meets your mission for your budget, you're most likely gonna have to buy a POS. Sometimes flying a POS works out, sometimes it doesn't...
 
Henning said:
Actually, it's not much of an embellishment on a 182. Once you try to actually stick things inside, you'll figure out why, you can't get much into it. It will haul what you can manage to get into it pretty well.

With what you state as your mission profile, you need at least a 182 to do the job, better a 205 or 206. You can also go with a PA 28-235hp series or a PA-32, but you'll be paying 182 or greater prices for apple to apple aircraft. There is no "cheap" plane that will do what you want.
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Pulled my back seat, filled it floor to ceiling threw a passenger in and topped the tanks for a trip to OSH in 06. Below gross, no problem. However I'm headed to 3W2 next weekend and I'm gonna have to short fill to only 45 gal so I don't violate my landing weight with 3 passengers and a weekend's worth of bags.
 
Henning said:
That's probably a good idea, because to buy a model that meets your mission for your budget, you're most likely gonna have to buy a POS. Sometimes flying a POS works out, sometimes it doesn't...
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Yeah you're probably right about that. I just need to be careful that I don't wind up with a total piece of junk. That's where the extra dough comes in. I think with patience, I should be able to get something that's mechanically sound, but basic, in my budget . There have been some aircraft go for really low prices lately here at our airport. Good ones too. I'll just have to wait and see what comes up, and if nothing does, I'll just have to save up some more money, buy something smaller, or finance some of the cost.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a turbo, but they cost too much for me. A normally aspirated 210 would perform so much better than what I've been flying anyway, I bet I would be quite happy.
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This is how I see it.

Turbo would be nice but my typical mission is a 300nm round trip x-c at or below 5000MSL. It would be nice for my trips to the Rockys but I still managed Leadville at 13000+ft DA and a medium load.

For ME it would be more wear and tear on the engine and another expensive part to fail. Now if I was making longer trips I'd love to have a T210...;)
 
Skylane81E said:
This is how I see it.

Turbo would be nice but my typical mission is a 300nm round trip x-c at or below 5000MSL. It would be nice for my trips to the Rockys but I still managed Leadville at 13000+ft DA and a medium load.

For ME it would be more wear and tear on the engine and another expensive part to fail. Now if I was making longer trips I'd love to have a T210...;)
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Yes sir. That's pretty much how I feel about them as well. I know I've talked mostly about long X-Cs and mountain flying, but really the majority of my flying will be to and from the lake 100nm away on weekends to save myself 5 hrs of driving round trip. But, I do want something that will make the longer trips with the loads I spoke of a few times a year, if it's practical. Of course, the fact that I don't know much at all about turbos kinda makes me shy away from them.
 
Are you using your lap-top in the storm cellar tonight? Looks like some DSAQ heading your way.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Yes sir. That's pretty much how I feel about them as well. I know I've talked mostly about long X-Cs and mountain flying, but really the majority of my flying will be to and from the lake 100nm away on weekends to save myself 5 hrs of driving round trip. But, I do want something that will make the longer trips with the loads I spoke of a few times a year, if it's practical. Of course, the fact that I don't know much at all about turbos kinda makes me shy away from them.
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You're looking for a 205/206 or PA 32. Probably the best value for your dollar is going to be in a PA-32 coming off a Pt 135 cert. It'll be worn and high time, but will not have seen disuse type neglect.
 
wabower said:
Are you using your lap-top in the storm cellar tonight? Looks like some DSAQ heading your way.
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Nah, sittin in the middle of a gas plant actually. Workin the night shift and waiting for the sh*t to hit the fan. :hairraise: Good news is, I'm getting paid to sit here and shop for airplanes and talk on the forum . :D
 
OkieFlyer said:
Not enough for one of those. I betcha run-up would cost about a grand.
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Probably about right,

but what can you spend? Might affect what plane to get.

Example, I could afford to sell my 182 throw in some cash and get a nice T210, but I can't afford to fly it.
 
Wrong.

Skylane81E said:
Probably about right,

but what can you spend? Might affect what plane to get.

Example, I could afford to sell my 182 throw in some cash and get a nice T210, but I can't afford to fly it.
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denverpilot said:
I thought his reply was reserved. Ownership costs to properly maintain and fly an aircraft are a very large percentage over and above the purchase price.

He was trying to get your attention about that, not insult you.
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Thank you.

OP - I hope your checkbook isn't insulted as easily as you are.

Let me say this again, without the smilies:

If you don't have the wherewithall to handle, say, a $7500 crank AD, or a $20k rudder repair because some jackwagon in a helo decided to swim up the ramp, well, you really need to think long and hard about your budget.

Tough words, but would you rather some idiot on the internet warned you about getting in above your head, or actually get in above your head and have some Slavic meathead knocking on your door for $$$???

I have, effectively, an unlimited budget. I find A/C mx costs pretty breathtaking. Spouse has given me a blank check for a cabin-class multi engine and I am thinking looooooooooooooooooong and hard about it.

If you have a hard cap at $50k, that tells me your budget is limited. That tells me that you need a voice of reason giving you some downside advice. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. Sincerely.
 
Skylane81E said:
Probably about right,

but what can you spend? Might affect what plane to get.

Example, I could afford to sell my 182 throw in some cash and get a nice T210, but I can't afford to fly it.
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Well.... Don't think me a fool, but I haven't exactly come up with a number just yet. I'm still trying to figure out just how much to budget for each type of plane. I have accounted for insurance, hangar rent, fuel, annuals and routine maintenance, but I'm not sure how much to realistically budget beyond those things. The only figures I really have to go by right now are based on our flight schools expenses, since the owner is a friend of mine. $115 per hour covers all the expenses including fuel and profit for the C172s. $95 for the Cherokee 140. $80 for the C150s. $175 for the twin Apache. I kind of figured a 210 or PA-32 would come in somewhere between the 172 and Apache if it were a trainer, but I don't need to build in any profit like the school does. What I don't know is how much of those figures is profit. A couple of the guys on the Skymaster forum gave me their annual expence figures on their 337s over the past few years, and they ran about 10K per year or $100/hour. I would assume it would cost less than that for any single engine Cessna or Piper. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Some examples of typical operating costs would be helpful, but I thought it would be to personal a question for a public forum.
 
Can't help ya there, I'm a bad example as I don't pay maintenance costs, I pay around $4-5/hr
 
OkieFlyer said:
Well.... Don't think me a fool, but I haven't exactly come up with a number just yet. I'm still trying to figure out just how much to budget for each type of plane. I have accounted for insurance, hangar rent, fuel, annuals and routine maintenance, but I'm not sure how much to realistically budget beyond those things. The only figures I really have to go by right now are based on our flight schools expenses, since the owner is a friend of mine. $115 per hour covers all the expenses including fuel and profit for the C172s. $95 for the Cherokee 140. $80 for the C150s. $175 for the twin Apache. I kind of figured a 210 or PA-32 would come in somewhere between the 172 and Apache if it were a trainer, but I don't need to build in any profit like the school does. What I don't know is how much of those figures is profit. A couple of the guys on the Skymaster forum gave me their annual expence figures on their 337s over the past few years, and they ran about 10K per year or $100/hour. I would assume it would cost less than that for any single engine Cessna or Piper. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Some examples of typical operating costs would be helpful, but I thought it would be to personal a question for a public forum.
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That's just it, it all depends on condition, not all 172s, 210s or Apaches are equal. You can find $40,000 and $100,000 versions of each (although that's high for any Apache...) and that will likely have an effect on your hourly costs (but no guarantees). If you are at a purchase price of $50k on a PA-32 lets say, you're more likely to be paying more over the next year or two taking care of issues than with the $100k plane that's already had those issues addressed. Heck, on a PA-32 you can get a decent one around $70k that may save you money over the next 3 years because it already had upgrades and maint that the cheaper one is due for because the previous owner never gets full value back on this stuff, typically less than a third.

Can you operate a low cost aircraft on a shoestring budget? Yes, yes you can, but there will come the day when you have to say "I got all the flying time out of this one, time to sell it as salvage." This isn't necessarily a fiscal 'bad thing' and you can even come out ahead. The gamble is that you judge the 'done' point correctly and ground the plane before it fails in flight. Judge it wrong and you either waste money or die depending on which way you're off.

Pretty close to your budget and right on your mission there is a guy, CheckoutmySix on both the AOPA board and Purpleboardforpilots that has a PA-32 for sale.
 
Here I am a good example, I payed significantly more for my plane than a customer did on his at the same time.

5.5 years later I have spent less money because all my cylinders are still the same I bought with the plane, no major avionics failures, no big fuel leaks, no abused doors to require constant adjustment and reajustment etc etc etc.

And my plane is still worth quite a bit more than his if I decided to sell.
 
flyersfan31 said:
If you don't have the wherewithall to handle, say, a $7500 crank AD, or a $20k rudder repair because some jackwagon in a helo decided to swim up the ramp, well, you really need to think long and hard about your budget.
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Useless hypotheticals. Some hypothetical costs, like the rudder wind damage one suggested, may likely be covered by hull insurance. You may as well have pointed out that the "simple" act of piloting a personal airplane is 10+ times more dangerous than driving a car, so if he hasn't the wherewithall to face kicking the bucket (and his family with him) while flying, he needs to think long and hard about flying - never mind the costs of owning an airplane.
 
Stop and think about what they're telling you. They have no clue whether they're making money or not, because the fat lady is still in the wings. They may be showing a profit on their current p & l, but that's just an interim number and means nothing in the long run. They won't know how much (or if) they made money on the plane deal(s) until they sell it and count their money. Profit on rolling stock deals is money in (purchase price plus all own/op costs) less money out (rental or reimbursement revs plus net sales proceeds.) There was a time when airplanes appreciated in value, but Slim left town in 2007.

OkieFlyer said:
Well.... Don't think me a fool, but I haven't exactly come up with a number just yet. I'm still trying to figure out just how much to budget for each type of plane. I have accounted for insurance, hangar rent, fuel, annuals and routine maintenance, but I'm not sure how much to realistically budget beyond those things. The only figures I really have to go by right now are based on our flight schools expenses, since the owner is a friend of mine. $115 per hour covers all the expenses including fuel and profit for the C172s. $95 for the Cherokee 140. $80 for the C150s. $175 for the twin Apache. I kind of figured a 210 or PA-32 would come in somewhere between the 172 and Apache if it were a trainer, but I don't need to build in any profit like the school does. What I don't know is how much of those figures is profit. A couple of the guys on the Skymaster forum gave me their annual expence figures on their 337s over the past few years, and they ran about 10K per year or $100/hour. I would assume it would cost less than that for any single engine Cessna or Piper. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Some examples of typical operating costs would be helpful, but I thought it would be to personal a question for a public forum.
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Working for a flight school I can tell you, they aren't making money on the rental.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I'm still trying to figure out just how much to budget for each type of plane.
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Have you worked out how much you are willing to spend per month on aviating, then worked backward from that?

(In some past issue of either the EAA or AOPA magazine I believe there was a stat published on how much the average pilot spent per month on their aviation addiction - I seem to recall it was on the order of ~$1000/month.)
 
flyersfan31 said:
Thank you.

OP - I hope your checkbook isn't insulted as easily as you are.

Let me say this again, without the smilies:

If you don't have the wherewithall to handle, say, a $7500 crank AD, or a $20k rudder repair because some jackwagon in a helo decided to swim up the ramp, well, you really need to think long and hard about your budget.

Tough words, but would you rather some idiot on the internet warned you about getting in above your head, or actually get in above your head and have some Slavic meathead knocking on your door for $$$???

I have, effectively, an unlimited budget. I find A/C mx costs pretty breathtaking. Spouse has given me a blank check for a cabin-class multi engine and I am thinking looooooooooooooooooong and hard about it.

If you have a hard cap at $50k, that tells me your budget is limited. That tells me that you need a voice of reason giving you some downside advice. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. Sincerely.
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I truly appreciate the advice, and I apologize if I took you the wrong way. I'm not fortunate enough to have an unlimited budget, but 50K isn't the extent of my wherewithall. Thanks for your concern.

P.S. Nice use of Jackwagon BTW :wink2:
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I truly appreciate the advice, and I apologize if I took you the wrong way. I'm not fortunate enough to have an unlimited budget, but 50K isn't the extent of my wherewithall. Thanks for your concern.

P.S. Nice use Jackwagon BTW :wink2:
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Yeah, no real worries. Serious though looking at your needs, you'll be best served bringing your budget up to $70k before buying, that'll get you a good airplane for your mission.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, no real worries. Serious though looking at your needs, you'll be best served bringing your budget up to $70k before buying, that'll get you a good airplane for your mission.
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Duly noted.

Anyone want to buy 2009 Yamaha Raider 1900cc motorcycle. Nice bike! I'm asking 20K. :D
 
How do you suggest that a potential buyer "work backwards" to determine unscheduled maintenance, overhaul or repair?

Jim Logajan said:
Have you worked out how much you are willing to spend per month on aviating, then worked backward from that?

(In some past issue of either the EAA or AOPA magazine I believe there was a stat published on how much the average pilot spent per month on their aviation addiction - I seem to recall it was on the order of ~$1000/month.)
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wabower said:
How do you suggest that a potential buyer "work backwards" to determine unscheduled maintenance, overhaul or repair?
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10% the cost of the vessel is the number we use in the yacht business for a well kept vessel. Seems to hold for aircraft as well. Refits/TBO are exclusive of that, but if the funds are started at the beginning, they can be in the 10% annual expenses.
 
The problem with airplanes is that the owner must be prepared for the big oopsies, whether or not he happens to victimized by their occurrence. He could easily spend 60k for a plane and then be faced with another 40k unscheduled engine expense three months later. I con't know the odds, but it's clear from my experiences at the shop and the posts on various forums that these worst-case deals don't always happen to somebody else. Lots of dry powder is a wonderful thing for airplane owners.

Henning said:
10% the cost of the vessel is the number we use in the yacht business for a well kept vessel. Seems to hold for aircraft as well. Refits/TBO are exclusive of that, but if the funds are started at the beginning, they can be in the 10% annual expenses.
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wabower said:
The problem with airplanes is that the owner must be prepared for the big oopsies, whether or not he happens to victimized by their occurrence. He could easily spend 60k for a plane and then be faced with another 40k unscheduled engine expense three months later. I con't know the odds, but it's clear from my experiences at the shop and the posts on various forums that these worst-case deals don't always happen to somebody else. Lots of dry powder is a wonderful thing for airplane owners.
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No different than boats. There are marine diesels that cost more than turbines (and we have turbines as well) and you have to cut a hole in the side of the boat to do anything with it. Still,all in all it works into the 10% /annual average if you start with a good unit. You just may be using some on credit from future years that won't be so much. Any "catch up" items and upgrades are exclusive of the 10%.
 
wabower said:
The problem with airplanes is that the owner must be prepared for the big oopsies, whether or not he happens to victimized by their occurrence. He could easily spend 60k for a plane and then be faced with another 40k unscheduled engine expense three months later. I con't know the odds, but it's clear from my experiences at the shop and the posts on various forums that these worst-case deals don't always happen to somebody else. Lots of dry powder is a wonderful thing for airplane owners.
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Sadly, I can't sit here and honestly tell you that I'm prepared for such a disaster either.

Henning said:
No different than boats. There are marine diesels that cost more than turbines (and we have turbines as well) and you have to cut a hole in the side of the boat to do anything with it. Still,all in all it works into the 10% /annual average if you start with a good unit. You just may be using some on credit from future years that won't be so much. Any "catch up" items and upgrades are exclusive of the 10%.
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If I'm buying a used plane, with most likely a mid to high time engine, then I wouldn't be able to start at the beginning. I'd need to figure at least double the 10%.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Sadly, I can't sit here and honestly tell you that I'm prepared for such a disaster either.



If I'm buying a used plane, with most likely a mid to high time engine, then I wouldn't be able to start at the beginning. I'd need to figure at least double the 10%.
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Right, you always need a reserve fund that will at least get you home which pretty much means the ability to lay hands on $10k somehow. $10k will pretty much get anything with pistons fixed up and ferried home. That reserve can also count toward your TBO fund if it is liquid reserve. You can either charge yourself a real holdback bank ( I know people who do exactly that) or just make sure you have ready access to what it takes to keep it airworthy or be prepared with a "plan B" which will store the aircraft at minimum expense, and a "plan C" which will entail selling or salvaging out the airplane in an unairworthy condition. (Remember, "Airworthy" is a legal designation, not a physical one).
 
OkieFlyer said:
Well.... Don't think me a fool, but I haven't exactly come up with a number just yet. I'm still trying to figure out just how much to budget for each type of plane.
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Someone gave a pretty good rule of thumb to me once, well after I was an aircraft owner, but I shared it with my wife "just in case"...

"If you aren't liquid enough to replace the entire engine tomorrow, you aren't liquid enough to own an aircraft."

(Replace engine with plural if you're flying a twin. Maybe that one's a bit much, maybe not -- the twin drivers can comment.)

It's a good quick-and-dirty way to see if your spouse is REALLY supportive of the whole idea. Engines sometimes die painful immediate deaths, and if you or someone in your group can't crap the cash to get the aircraft back in the air, it's a long painful grounding.

I have TWO friends who acquired entire aircraft this way. Co-owners were in completely over their heads, aircraft sat "too long" (for varying values of "too long") for an engine replacement, negotiations were held, and the "new single owners" walked away with an airplane that they still had to buy an engine for, for their headaches of waiting and wondering if they'd ever fly again.

One was a C-150, the other was a C-182. The C-182 not only needed an engine but also needed bladders immediately thereafter. That owner is one PROUD owner of the C-182 he dumped a LOT of cash into in about two year's time. His co-owners are airplane-less, and were "bought out" by the purchase of the engine.

So as a rule of thumb, but not necessarily a good indication of what's going to happen if you get GOOD pre-buy inspections including a look inside the engine with a borescope, it's pretty accurate.

The question to ask yourself is, "Can I hang a new engine on this thing TOMORROW?" If not, you're probably better off renting.

In our particular setup, a new engine split three ways, I could do. Two ways, harder. By myself... that'd hurt a lot of things I don't want to hurt. Co-ownership can either lessen the pain, or make it worse... as noted above.
 
Henning said:
Right, you always need a reserve fund that will at least get you home which pretty much means the ability to lay hands on $10k somehow. $10k will pretty much get anything with pistons fixed up and ferried home. That reserve can also count toward your TBO fund if it is liquid reserve. You can either charge yourself a real holdback bank ( I know people who do exactly that) or just make sure you have ready access to what it takes to keep it airworthy or be prepared with a "plan B" which will store the aircraft at minimum expense, and a "plan C" which will entail selling or salvaging out the airplane in an unairworthy condition. (Remember, "Airworthy" is a legal designation, not a physical one).
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Alrighty then, that don't sound so bad. That is quite doable.
 
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