Got yelled at by ATC....

I don't have your friend's letters or qualifications, but I do fly the system a lot, for many years, from when TCAs ruled the sky, and believe he is absolutely correct. If the controller in charge of the airspace instructs you (VFR FF) to proceed to fix XYZ altitude ABC, you do as he says, unless there is a mountain, a cloud, or an airplane in the way. If time allows (which is not common in Bravo airspace) you can ask if you are cleared through the Bravo (assuming he hasn't already mentioned it, as they do 9 times out of 10). But act first, ask questions later. I have never had a controller tell me in this circumstance, "I didn't say the magic words, gotcha!".

At the same time I am turning, I clarify, "Are you clearing me into the Bravo?" The FARs are unambiguous on this matter as is everything published by the FAA that a pilot is required to know. A controller may forget to issue me the clearance, however the burden is incumbent on me to assure I have obtained that clearance. You might luck out and and assume the forgotten clearance and everything goes well, but as the OP discovered, that situation is not assured and the legally/procedurally correct way to handle it is to stay out of the B until cleared.
 
Warrior 917 unable, not cleared class B. Rejecting is not the same as disregarding. Same as if they asked you to turn into a cloud.

That certainly sounds like it should work, and I'm already on record as agreeing that the pilot should seek clarification. The dispute came about in relation to what the pilot should do if the vector is given by the relevant approach controller and it isn't possible, for some reason, to obtain clarification. That's probably a rare enough situation that it's not worth as much time as we've been spending on it.
 
Hi All.

I have been following this post with great interest, I fly into Orlando Class Bravo on a regular basis vfr and have difficulties at times.

After reading for the last few days I was of the opinion that I should wait for the magic words before entering.

Today while working in my hangar a friend drove up so I decided to get his opinion. but first his qualifications.

Day Job.... Check airman on the 747s for UPS
Instructor with all the letters needed.
Newly minted DPE. Flys general aviation on days off.

I carefully explained my situations in Orlando and he told me to follow ATC vectors without questioning class bravo. as long as they have used my correct tail number when talking to me. this is IFR or VFR.

NOW THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Send a letter to

Chief counsel for Regulation
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration.

Explain in detail the situations and ask for a written opinion, this done on POA letterhead. Then to print the opinion here on PoA

Any volunteers??????????

Ken

Asking the chief counsel for an opinion is risky business. Too many times, the result is something everybody hates.

And it's certainly not worth the risk just to settle an Internet argument.
 
Just remember, controllers make mistakes and their own (wrong) interpretations as well as pilots. In all the FAA literature, it's unambiguous as to what you the pilot are responsible for receiving.
 
Just remember, controllers make mistakes and their own (wrong) interpretations as well as pilots. In all the FAA literature, it's unambiguous as to what you the pilot are responsible for receiving.

It's not unambiguous in all the FAA literature. The fact that 91.123(b) can come into conflict with 91.131(a) creates ambiguity. The differences between the Doremire and Karas interpretations also create ambiguity.
 
Asking the chief counsel for an opinion is risky business. Too many times, the result is something everybody hates.

And it's certainly not worth the risk just to settle an Internet argument.

This.

I would get clarification from the controller before entering Class B. I don't see how this is that much different than a VFR airplane deviating from a vector to avoid a cloud.
 
It's not unambiguous in all the FAA literature. The fact that 91.123(b) can come into conflict with 91.131(a) creates ambiguity. The differences between the Doremire and Karas interpretations also create ambiguity.

You apply the hierarchy of standards, Clearance trumps Instruction. Put it this way, if you follow the instruction without the clearance and there is a problem, you both get busted, or he can even blame you saying he expect you to remain clear. If you break off at the B after trying to verify a clearance and failing, and there is a problem, he gets busted, you don't, you have multiple avenues with which to defend your actions,mane there are no cited exceptions.

It's always incumbent on the PIC to receive a clearance into the B. If you don't hear it, ask for it. If they want to get ****y, ask them for their supervisors phone number and to mark tape. Getting a clearance is CYA.
 
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That certainly sounds like it should work, and I'm already on record as agreeing that the pilot should seek clarification. The dispute came about in relation to what the pilot should do if the vector is given by the relevant approach controller and it isn't possible, for some reason, to obtain clarification. That's probably a rare enough situation that it's not worth as much time as we've been spending on it.

If you can't get clarification and a clearance, you stay clear.
 
You apply the hierarchy of standards, Clearance trumps Instruction.

Where is that written?

Put it this way, if you follow the instruction without the clearance and there is a problem, you both get busted, or he can even blame you saying he expect you to remain clear. If you break off at the B after trying to verify a clearance and failing, and there is a problem, he gets busted, you don't, you have multiple avenues with which to defend your actions,mane there are no cited exceptions.

I'm less interested in what could happen than in whether such enforcement actions are actually taking place. So far, no one has cited a case of a pilot getting busted for following an instruction from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the class B area.

It's always incumbent on the PIC to receive a clearance into the B.

Except in an emergency.

It's also always incumbent on the PIC to follow ATC instructions, except in an emergency.

You keep pretending there's either no conflict between the two regulations, or no ambiguity about how to resolve the conflict.

If you don't hear it, ask for it.

I agree.

If they want to get ****y, ask them for their supervisors phone number and to mark tape.

Doing that over the radio serves no purpose.

Getting a clearance is CYA.

So is following ATC instructions.

I'm seeing lots of opinions here, but so far, no proof.
 
Where is that written?

I'm seeing lots of opinions here, but so far, no proof.

Yes, because instruction is not in 1.1 and neither is authorization.

If it was totally clear then there would be no Chief Counsel letters.
 
Where is that written?



I'm less interested in what could happen than in whether such enforcement actions are actually taking place. So far, no one has cited a case of a pilot getting busted for following an instruction from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the class B area.



Except in an emergency.

It's also always incumbent on the PIC to follow ATC instructions, except in an emergency.

You keep pretending there's either no conflict between the two regulations, or no ambiguity about how to resolve the conflict.



I agree.



Doing that over the radio serves no purpose.



So is following ATC instructions.

I'm seeing lots of opinions here, but so far, no proof.

As soon as you assume a Bravo clearance, you are creating a situation where you may or may not cause a conflict, because without a clearance, that instruction terminates at the Class B boundary. It is incumbent on you to receive the clearance. If you don't hear it, it is incumbent on you to ask, if you don't receive it's incumbent on you to stay clear. There is no exception written into the FARs. When an exception is intended, it is written.
 
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What if the instruction puts you through a cloud?
I already said a few posts ago that there is no problem deviating from a vector for a cloud. I claimed the same for Class B, and MarkZ the ATC guy agreed with me.
 
I already said a few posts ago that there is no problem deviating from a vector for a cloud. I claimed the same for Class B, and MarkZ the ATC guy agreed with me.

Exactly, plenty of precedent of pilot obligation over riding ATC instruction. ATC clearance into B is a pilot obligation.
 
As soon as you assume a Bravo clearance, you are creating a situation where you may or may not cause a conflict, because without a clearance, that instruction terminates at the Class B boundary. It is incumbent on you to receive the clearance. If you don't hear it, it is incumbent on you to ask, if you don't receive it's incumbent on you to stay clear. There is no exception written into the FARs. When an exception is intended, it is written.

The only exception written into 91.123(b) is an emergency.
 
Safety trumps technicalities, every time.
It may not be the safer option to continue into the Class B without clearance.

Actually I would be surprised if you got in trouble either way. If you stay on the vector you could say you were being vectored. If you turn to avoid Class B you could say that's why you deviated from your vector. You might be questioned but you would have a defense. If it was me I would request clarification then avoid entering without a clearance but I can see people doing it the other way too.
 
Because you're VFR, remember?

Airplanes have large blind spots, and it's very common for pilots of VFR flights to fail to spot traffic even when blind spots are not a factor.

Consider also that when entering class B, depending on where you are in the airspace, there may or may not be traffic near you, whereas the issuance of a vector is very often an indication that there is.
 
If they tell you to enter but don't clear you, just do a 180. That will get their attention.
 
There are a lot of things going on in this thread, so please bear with me.

Remember, you are the VFR PIC. You are the sole person responsible for the safety of your flight. My job is to ensure you don't engage in spot welding in the skies. My job doesn't alleviate the VFR PIC's job of seeing and avoiding other aircraft, or ensuring proper weather avoidance. As a radar controller, I don't know where the clouds are. I do know, however, if there is any observed radar traffic conflicting with your flight. If I judge that a VFR aircraft will fly dangerously close to another aircraft, and the VFR PIC does not see the other aircraft, I will take appropriate actions to avoid a collision.

And I've said it before, my colleagues on here have said it before. We would rather talk to you and know what you are doing. At least this way, we can effectively ensure your flight won't become an unsafe hazard with the jet screaming along at 5-6 miles a minute.

Why is getting a Bravo clearance so important?
Class Bravo airspace is positive control airspace. Aircraft require clearance for entry into positive control airspace just like they require clearance for entry into Class Alpha airspace (at or above FL180). That's because ATC separation standards apply to all aircraft. There is no possibility of non-participating aircraft. If you aren't cleared into Bravo airspace, remain clear. It's as simple as that.

ATC separation standards for VFR/VFR and VFR/IFR aircraft differ based on weight and wake turbulence (or wake RECAT) categories. As such, it's not as simple as see-and-avoid which is the standard in all other classes of airspace. In addition, flight through congested Class Bravo airspaces requires accurate flight. Aircraft must maintain accurate altitudes, headings, and sometimes speeds to safely transition airspace. Given that my duty priority requires the safe and efficient movement of IFR aircraft prior to VFR aircraft, I will tend to delay vector a VFR aircraft if it becomes operationally advantageous to the other aircraft in the airspace (hint: it usually is operationally advantageous, as the VFR aircraft is almost never at same speed or same pattern as the other aircraft in the airspace).

Transitional flight through the Bravo is different than flying a published VFR corridor. VFR corridors have been established based on regular IFR traffic patterns. Flight through those corridors and adhering to their restrictions will ensure ATC separation from normal IFR flight patterns. That's why the corridors are restricted both in routing and altitudes.

The OP's story
It sounds like you were not given any special navigation instruction (i.e. vectors, cleared to fix, etc.). If that be the case, the responsibility for securing a clearance to transit Class Bravo airspace rests solely with you. Being on flight following does not equal clearance. Assuming ATC cannot accommodate a clearance into the Bravo, the controller will expect you to either turn, climb, or descend to avoid the Bravo airspace boundaries. It also sounds like you transit the airspace frequently, and as such expected the same treatment as before. In any case, the controller was correct: you didn't have a clearance for entry, you don't enter the Bravo.

Without an audio and radar playback of the event, any discussion into the professionalism of the controller would be hypothetical at best and hyperbolic at worst.

A controller's vector (instruction) and pilot concurrence
Workload permitting, controllers may suggest vectors or altitude instructions to VFR aircraft. The VFR PIC receiving radar services has the final say on any instruction a controller gives. ATC may issue vectors and/or altitudes to VFR aircraft with pilot concurrence.

What is pilot concurrence? According to many, pilot concurrence is the read back of any instruction to the VFR aircraft. If you, as the PIC, receive a vector or altitude instruction and you read it back, you are concurring with the controller's suggested instruction. That suggestion then becomes a clearance, which as we've seen from CC responses, must be followed. If you, as the VFR PIC, observe that an ATC instruction will put your flight into a cloud, or unsafe proximity to positive control airspace, you must notify your inability to safely comply with the instruction.

Good pilots usually follow with a plan B:

"Approach, N123 unable heading 120, that would make us IMC. We can give you a 090 or a 150 heading to avoid the cloud."

Notice I didn't mention the hypothetical "but I got vectored into the Bravo!"

What about getting a vector into the Bravo?
I find this situation very rare, for it involves several obvious links in the error chain. First, the controller vectors a VFR aircraft into Bravo airspace, meaning the aircraft had to already be in close proximity to the boundary. Second, the controller forgets about the VFR aircraft, which might be plausible given workload. Third, the pilot does not take action, either verbally via questioning or physically via a climb/descent/turn, to abide by 14CFR91. Finally, the controller does not issue required clearance into the Bravo airspace, potentially costing him or her an operational deviation for the airspace incursion.

At a minimum, if you have accepted a vector, have you began evading maneuvers vertically around the airspace? The vector was not an altitude instruction, and there is nothing stopping the VFR PIC from climbing or descending to avoid the vertical limits of Bravo airspace. In fact, many controllers expect the VFR PIC to initiate such a maneuver. A prime example would be an aircraft cruising at 5,500, vectored southeast toward a Bravo shelf with floor/ceiling altitudes of 4,000/10,000. A descent to 3,500 is out of the question (assuming no clouds of course)?

Henning and the others have it right, ladies and gentlemen. There is nothing wrong with getting clarity, or asking for the "magic words." We are all pulling on the same oar here, if you'll pardon the expression. Controllers want to help out when we can, and if we can provide an operational advantage to a VFR flight, we do so. Sometimes, in the heat of the action, we forget the "magic words." As a pilot, you can help out too.

"N123, fly heading 120 for (insert reasoning here)."

"Heading 120, N123. Verify cleared into the Bravo?"
 
"N123, fly heading 120 for (insert reasoning here)."

"Heading 120, N123. Verify cleared into the Bravo?"

And it works real nice.

I got a traffic avoidance vector into SFO Class B that way. It sure looks like the controller didn't realize he was asking me to climb through the floor. When I asked for clarification on the clearance, he gave it right away, and worded it quite differently (with an altitude restriction, and as an instruction rather than advisory).

Everybody was satisfied as far as I could tell. Including the CAP cadet/student pilot in the right seat who witnessed his first, albeit rather weird, VFR Class B clearance.
 
A controller's vector (instruction) and pilot concurrence
Workload permitting, controllers may suggest vectors or altitude instructions to VFR aircraft. The VFR PIC receiving radar services has the final say on any instruction a controller gives. ATC may issue vectors and/or altitudes to VFR aircraft with pilot concurrence.

Good pilots usually follow with a plan B:

"Approach, N123 unable heading 120, that would make us IMC. We can give you a 090 or a 150 heading to avoid the cloud."

Notice I didn't mention the hypothetical "but I got vectored into the Bravo!"

What about getting a vector into the Bravo?
I find this situation very rare, for it involves several obvious links in the error chain. First, the controller vectors a VFR aircraft into Bravo airspace, meaning the aircraft had to already be in close proximity to the boundary. Second, the controller forgets about the VFR aircraft, which might be plausible given workload. Third, the pilot does not take action, either verbally via questioning or physically via a climb/descent/turn, to abide by 14CFR91. Finally, the controller does not issue required clearance into the Bravo airspace, potentially costing him or her an operational deviation for the airspace incursion.

At a minimum, if you have accepted a vector, have you began evading maneuvers vertically around the airspace? The vector was not an altitude instruction, and there is nothing stopping the VFR PIC from climbing or descending to avoid the vertical limits of Bravo airspace. In fact, many controllers expect the VFR PIC to initiate such a maneuver. A prime example would be an aircraft cruising at 5,500, vectored southeast toward a Bravo shelf with floor/ceiling altitudes of 4,000/10,000. A descent to 3,500 is out of the question (assuming no clouds of course)?

Henning and the others have it right, ladies and gentlemen. There is nothing wrong with getting clarity, or asking for the "magic words." We are all pulling on the same oar here, if you'll pardon the expression. Controllers want to help out when we can, and if we can provide an operational advantage to a VFR flight, we do so. Sometimes, in the heat of the action, we forget the "magic words." As a pilot, you can help out too.

"N123, fly heading 120 for (insert reasoning here)."

"Heading 120, N123. Verify cleared into the Bravo?"

Sorry, but if you aim me into the B, and I don't have a clearance, and you 'expect' me to make vertical maneuvers to save you the trouble, your expectations are going to go unfulfilled.

What you are going to hear is "spamcan 123, unable heading xxx, negative clearance." And I'm staying on my navigation until you clear me in, or you turn someone else, or you request I dive, or climb, or whatever. But I'm not going to play pretty please with sugar on top to get ATC to issue what should have been done with the first call:

"Spamcan 123, turn heading xxx for <reason>, cleared into the Bravo"

To which I will reply: "Spamcan 123, heading xxx, cleared Bravo" or word to that effect.
 
Sorry, but if you aim me into the B, and I don't have a clearance, and you 'expect' me to make vertical maneuvers to save you the trouble, your expectations are going to go unfulfilled.

What you are going to hear is "spamcan 123, unable heading xxx, negative clearance." And I'm staying on my navigation until you clear me in, or you turn someone else, or you request I dive, or climb, or whatever. But I'm not going to play pretty please with sugar on top to get ATC to issue what should have been done with the first call:

"Spamcan 123, turn heading xxx for <reason>, cleared into the Bravo"

To which I will reply: "Spamcan 123, heading xxx, cleared Bravo" or word to that effect.

You're perfectly welcome to maintain your own nav clear of the Bravo, you just have to tell them, 'unable without Bravo clearance' and maintain 'see and avoid'. Not a problem, but you have to tell them to CYA.

Usually I manage to work out my Bravo transition well in advance with a few questions of how things typically happen, and then looking at my options so as soon as the Class B denies my request (very rare really) I'm already set up to execute my plan b clear of the B.
 
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I've requested bravo clearance... gotten the clearance and then vectored around the perimeter... WTF?
 
I've requested bravo clearance... gotten the clearance and then vectored around the perimeter... WTF?

That's why it pays off to query prior controllers "how do they usually handle this transition?" They can't give you anything solid to work with, but typically they know what will be the routine for the given runways in use. Sometimes the answer you get back makes you determine you're better off just ducking or climbing, far enough out where they are a minor factor, or save the extra distance if you are going around. Most typically though a B transition will take me over mid field or the departure numbers at >1500', and the prior controller gives me a preferred expected entry point to aim for.
 
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Was flying into KLUK a week ago and got the same. STL app says "cleared for Bravo at 4500. Same frequency, another controller comes on and tells me to descend and remain clear of the Bravo only a minute or so after the clearance. No biggie as I was headed that way anyway...
 
...What about getting a vector into the Bravo?
I find this situation very rare, for it involves several obvious links in the error chain. First, the controller vectors a VFR aircraft into Bravo airspace, meaning the aircraft had to already be in close proximity to the boundary. Second, the controller forgets about the VFR aircraft, which might be plausible given workload. Third, the pilot does not take action, either verbally via questioning or physically via a climb/descent/turn, to abide by 14CFR91. Finally, the controller does not issue required clearance into the Bravo airspace, potentially costing him or her an operational deviation for the airspace incursion.

At a minimum, if you have accepted a vector, have you began evading maneuvers vertically around the airspace? The vector was not an altitude instruction, and there is nothing stopping the VFR PIC from climbing or descending to avoid the vertical limits of Bravo airspace. In fact, many controllers expect the VFR PIC to initiate such a maneuver. A prime example would be an aircraft cruising at 5,500, vectored southeast toward a Bravo shelf with floor/ceiling altitudes of 4,000/10,000. A descent to 3,500 is out of the question (assuming no clouds of course)?

Henning and the others have it right, ladies and gentlemen. There is nothing wrong with getting clarity, or asking for the "magic words." We are all pulling on the same oar here, if you'll pardon the expression. Controllers want to help out when we can, and if we can provide an operational advantage to a VFR flight, we do so. Sometimes, in the heat of the action, we forget the "magic words." As a pilot, you can help out too.

"N123, fly heading 120 for (insert reasoning here)."

"Heading 120, N123. Verify cleared into the Bravo?"

What about this situation, where the pilot was given an altitude assignment, but the controller for some reason wouldn't make the class B clearance explicit? (I'm asking about the last paragraph, not the quote, which was unnecessarily nit-picky.)

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1926123&postcount=25
 
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.65 phraseology specifically says "Bravo" in it and not "requested."

Odds of getting a vector into the B without clearance slim. Odds of getting that and no "Cleared into the Class Bravo" and not being able to get in a word edgewise to clarify? Not even worth bringing up. As my friend at ATL said, he can't imagine that scenario ever happening. Bad ATC.
 
.65 phraseology specifically says "Bravo" in it and not "requested."

Odds of getting a vector into the B without clearance slim. Odds of getting that and no "Cleared into the Class Bravo" and not being able to get in a word edgewise to clarify? Not even worth bringing up. As my friend at ATL said, he can't imagine that scenario ever happening. Bad ATC.

Right, nearly always I get a "cleared" or "remain clear" it's rare that I get pointed at a B by someone without hearing those words. If I don't hear, I assume the controller is confusing me with IFR traffic and I query. It's really not that difficult or an imposition to take responsibility for attaining the words. To not is just being lazy, and that's not a particularly good habit in aviation.
 
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