Got "gassed" in Milan...not the good "gassed"

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by LongRoadBob, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Nope - with doors and windows and vents closed an RV is considerably more enclosed than any hotel room I've ever been in - I did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

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    The refrigerator mechanics are not usually inside the Rv as they are in a hotel, they are "outside", no?
     
  3. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, Dometic reefers are self contained, slide in and out units.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

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    I still the the mechanics are on the "outside" rather than the inside.
     
  5. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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  6. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

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  7. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Inside.
    Believe me, with the outside access door closed, when my Dometic broke a line the inside of the Airstream filled up with enough NH3 gas that about overwhelmed me when I opened the door to step inside. And I expect it had been enclosed within for awhile. Experience must count for something.
    .....and, really, this thread has been 7500'd by us about enough, don't ya think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
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  8. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    I've done some research on ammonia as a refrigerant and found it is used not only in industrial applications but in such places as grocery stores because it is more economical than other refrigerants. Imagine the liability should some refrigerant system dump a bunch of anhydrous ammonia into the confines of a grocery store. I don't want to think about the possible consequences to innocent people.

    LongroadBob is a classic example of what can occur when safety is disregarded.

    If you sniff ammonia in the store get the hell out quick.

    Bob,

    Sorry to hear of your distress but thanks for the heads up.
     
  9. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Salty,

    You open a door to either frozen or refrigerated food and your nostrils are assaulted. What is your best option? I would exit stage left posthaste.
     
  10. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Well at least you are alive. A friend of mine got carbon monoxide poisoning while on vacation at a hotel in Prague and died.
     
  11. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    I wanted to acknowledge what you write, but "like" seems just wrong.

    I am very grateful. There was a point just after inhaling, where I hadn't had a breath in a while and actually thought "this might be it". I even recall thinking how dumb to die in a bathroom of a hotel room all alone.

    I was very grateful to get just a sliver of breath back....and the coughing and burping. I'm sorry to hear of your friend, what was the source of the carbon monoxide? That is terrible.

    I feel like I lost some IQ points. I recall thinking I ought to get the model name and manufacturer off the fridge. I looked at it, and nothing on the front that looked like it. I made a mental note to try and see more closely if I could find the metal label on it. But I forgot. When I got back I emailed the manager...what a **** he is. I asked last week for the manufacturer and model name or number. He sent me a photo after several days of the safety stickers on the minibar. I asked again, pointing out I had a right to know what I was exposed to, and since he claimed to have talked with them (and that is was "only" Ammonia) he must surely have that information handy. After a few more days he sent me the link to the manufacturer.
    He's being extremely unhelpful. They have all kinds of models and I can't see which one it specifically was.

    I sent an email to their corporate headquarters, and so far no reply from them except an automated one on in contact information by phone.
     
  12. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Bob,

    Pure and simple, you are being stonewalled. They don't accept liability.
     
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  13. TCABM

    TCABM Line Up and Wait

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    @LongRoadBob, likely at this point your only recourse will be through litigation in a civil suit.

    Unfortunately, the Italian mentality is that it’s no big deal: you did it to yourself and you’re alive. How bad could it be.
     
  14. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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  15. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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  16. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Forced air heating?
     
  17. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Forced air heat, propane and pellet stove.
     
  18. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Annual inspection is a real good idea. So are the CO detectors since a cracked heat exchanger can ruin your whole day.

    I’ve had “other” problems with the hydronic system in the current house but so far it hasn’t tried to kill me.
     
  19. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Oh yes, A friend of mine is HVAC and he checks out my current house every year, and he checked the new to us house before we bought it. I have my wife and my 86 yr old mom living here so I tend to be over cautious now.
     
  20. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    Updating. It's been some weeks since (happened on Oct. 24). Have since then been experiencing fairly serious shortness of breath, and other symptoms. Lots of "throat clearing". The weird thing, on a couple of mornings as I woke I feel it more acutely. I thought to check the barometer, and the QNH was down to around 990 or so on those days. On days with higher air pressure it is somewhat better but still short.

    Have been to several doctors. Problem is this is not a "normal" injury, so all have to check with others to find out more about it. Seems there are sections of my lung that are "collapsed", and chance that I am getting a chemical pneumonia. Ongoing doctor visits.
    Am using an inhaler that has cortisone as well as air-clearing prescribed yesterday by a doctor. Among just the normal health issues am studying to retake Meteorology, Air Law and ATC, and Navigation exams next week. Am worried this may affect my flying. If I start breathing more "normally" am going to try and schedule some flight time to see how I feel at lower altitudes.

    Anyone know, (though I am in Norway, I believe the criteria is not so different) people with ashtma, etc. or people that need to use oxygen tanks, are they allowed to pilot a plane solo? Or is that a deal breaker for medical?

    I hate this.
     
  21. Art Rose

    Art Rose Pre-Flight

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  22. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Man, you need to see a Pulmonologist and get pulmonary function tests w diffusing capacity. Insist.
     
  23. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    ??
     
  24. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    I had a "relapse", last friday night woke at 4 a.m. because of trouble breathing, and lots of "stuff" in my throat. Went to a doc on friday, took breathing test for how much volume, etc. and he sent me to acute section of the hospital. They did some tests, result was that inhalator and they contacted the "lung" specialist and I am waiting to be called in.

    I appreciate the advice. Thanks!

    Still wondering if I end up having reduced breathing, or need oxygen, if I will be able to pass the medical. If that is a disqualifier.
     
  25. eetrojan

    eetrojan Pattern Altitude

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    Bob, I hope you get feeling better soon. Always enjoy reading about your foreign path to getting your license and wish you only the best. Joe
     
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  26. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Follow up report?
     
  27. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I gotta ask now......what exactly is a ‘good’ gassing (ref the title), afterall?
     
  28. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

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    Gassed was a euphemism for getting drunk. As in "I really got gassed at the club last night."
     
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  29. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everyone in the chemtrail program should know about banapple gas since it is one of the few known treatments for exposure to the legacy chemicals.
     
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  30. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    They are far more likely to respond to the demand letter from your attorney.

    You have already suffered serious damages and there could be permanent long term sequelae. I would get in touch with an good personal injury lawyer and start the process now. It can take quite a while to recover. Your lawyer can send them an order to preserve evidence as well (if they have that sort of thing in Italy).
     
  31. GaryV

    GaryV Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Bob
    How are you doing? As you now know ammonia damages tissue and it sounds like it may have gotten pretty deep into your lungs. I second the idea of using a pulse oximeter to see if your body is getting enough O2 into your blood. If your readings are low it’s an objective indication you have a medical problem and that may get your doctor to put more effort into figuring out what to do.

    At this point your symptoms do sound like you may have pneumonia. If you do it’s important to get treatment quickly. A chest XRay confirms a diagnosis one way or the other fairly quickly.

    Best wishes
    Gary
     
  32. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    When I went in two weeks ago to a private doctor (outside the national health system) they sent me to the hospital acute section. Outcome was that she thought I may have a chemical pneumonia. She gave me a prescription for an inhaler with cortisone, which I have been using twice a day since.

    But also, not sure how to say it in english anymore, but she contacted the pulmonary section, lung specialist, and they will contact me by mail for an appointment. It's been two weeks. I love the national health system at least when I had a burst appendix and another emergency procedure, but in these things it is often slow.

    It seemed to be helpin a little with the inhaler, or at least some. Maybe. Except, again, when the local air pressure is low (like QNH 991 or so) I can tell immidiately on waking from my breathing. The last night we had a birthday party for two of our grandkids, and someone put little sparklers on the two cakes, formed as the number (one is nine the other seven) and I didn't think anything about it until I was standing singing the birthday song, and the smoke from the sparklers filled the room...I had to go outside, and have had very difficult breathing since then. Even slightly numb on my fingertips, and sleepy...no blue around my nails.
    I can't get a good breath. No coughing (or very little) but just feels like altitude.

    My thought at this point is similar to what you mention. It isn't going to help my breathing, but damn, they really should never have let this condition happen and it was negligence on their part, as they housekeeping staff had two times they had to have noticed the ammonia and did nothing. They were obviously not trained to report such things. The hotel manager was a real &$@$@ and dragged his feet, wouldn't supply the name of manufacturer for a long time and also never answered about the model number.

    It's very hard to get things going when I live in Norway and have to use an Italian lawyer. But I feel it is best to gather information about this, medically, and try and document damage, as well as hopefully get help to recover if possible. It definitely is possible there is nothing they can do, except to try and treat of pneumonia.

    And as you say, long term damage, which I imagine is very difficult to prove was from this.

    Thanks, to both of you (and the others) for your thoughts.
     
  33. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Completely agree that they are likely liable for your injury and unfortunately that you could have significant expenses and possible disability. I suspect you will end up needing a lawyer in Norway and one in Italy. I would suggest arranging the Norwegian one first.

    Given the timing here, I don't think this will be particularly hard to prove. You were breathing just fine prior to being exposed to the gas, immediately developed symptoms, and now may have a chemical pneumonia.

    Aside from recovering your own damages, the management there appears to need to learn to be more careful and responsible. The correspondence, at least, from your attorneys may help prevent injury to others in the future.
     
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  34. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Line Up and Wait

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    You really hit the nail on the head here.

    First off,maps I wrote a while back, Salty and others here we totally correct, and it may be one of the dumbest decisions I ever made not to demand an ambulance immediately after the incident.

    I am having a hard time letting this go. I had problems after but have been checked by doctors he and they see no damage now. I don't know if it is in my head, or what, but I contacted an Italian lawyer (he's working on contingency) but he wrote a very understated letter to the hotel, and the response was from the hotels attorney "what damages? He was moved to another room right after, and it was over" (they had tried to keep us in the same room, but the ammonia smell was too strong...reluctantly when I demanded it they moved us, but that isn't important.

    So I've been checked. I went to doctors, got X-rayed, etc. and again doctors say they see no special damage. I don't understand because I've been breathing for 61 years, and I noticed a difference in my breathing from up unti the inhalation/choking, and after that was like a light switch.

    To me, the hotels negligence, two different instances before the incident where if they were trained would have prevented it, and the violence of that incident....to me it is like saying if three crazed employees of the hotel snuck in my room and water boarded me for five minutes....hey "no permanent damage, we stopped, and he's ok...so what is the problem?"

    But I was stupid. Actually I was in shock. More than I realized. I felt embarrassed for having been gassed. I didn't want to ruin the vacation for my wife, and since all I read said any damage was already done...I felt like what is the point. It was terrible judgement on my part. I have read of other incidents, recently in England where thy call in the fire dept. ambulances, evacuate the building etc. and I think the hotel had a duty to call in these no matter what but...

    I am having a tougher time letting this go. My lawyer wrote a pretty understated letter, no entails, asking for damages, as I said. He wants me to go to a doctor to get a note from them...I am telling him there is no "note" to get. No doctor is going to hear my experience back in October and write any note that would be basis for damages. They couldn't put it down as cause and effect.

    There are times, usually when I wake up in the morning where I get some of the same feeling as if it just happened a few days ago...clump in my throat, nausea, breathing not feeling like it is normal. It goes away after a time.

    The letter back from the hotel attorney of course makes it seem as if I just "smelled some ammonia" and so what. No big deal. I'm having a hard time understanding how through negligence they exposed me to a deadly gas, I literally thought I was going to die as I totally lost breathing, and even when it came back later the worst maybe was the burping...and the stinging in the eyes (I can't quantify that either...but feel as if my sight was affected too), etc. and my lawyer doesn't make these points. He pointed out none of this.

    My problem is letting it go. I think they should have comped our stay there at the very least, but it isn't about the money. What I really want is for them to "pay" in that they get into trouble for their negligence and response after, and that they obviously wanted to keep it all quiet.

    But for my own peace of mind I wonder if I am better off just dropping it and letting it go.
    I'm just having a hard too doing that. Sorry for rambling some here.
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Pattern Altitude

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    Sorry to hear this.
     
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  36. Art Rose

    Art Rose Pre-Flight

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