Going from Sport Pilot to Private Pilot? Costs?

D

dosstx

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
4
Display Name
Display name:
doss
Hi all,
I'm a Sport Pilot (got my ticket last year). I got about 50hrs total with about 97% of that time in a J3 Cub.

I'm 30 years old and own a Cub, but I know I can't use it for the private pilot ticket. I am interested in possibly pursuing a full private pilot ticket and was wondering if anyone could help me figure out the costs involved taking into consideration that I can use my sport pilot time towards the PPL?
 
Have you flown anything else other than the cub? Like a 172 or PA28?

As far as I know, you can still train for all of the private stuff in a cub, but will still need a plane with appropriate navigation system to demonstrate those PTS tasks.
 
ziege said:
Can't, because?
Click to expand...

A J-3 is not going to be able to demonstrate all of the required tasks under 'Navigations Systems' or the Instrument flight tasks required for the PPL. Also, depending on the aircraft, it may not be able to demonstrate all of the Radio Comms tasks.

If you find a DPE who is willing, you could theoretically use two airplanes for the checkride - the cub for 95% of the tasks and then go up in a rented 172 for the ones listed above.

If the DPE was willing to do that, it might be the cheapest/easiest for you - you could still do almost all of the required PPL x-country training with your instructor and then just spend a couple hours on the Navigation and Instrument flight tasks in a 172.
 
Last edited:
Lack of gyro instruments/glass equivalent (for simulated IFR) ... didn't think of that but yeah, not many cubs with a 6-pack.

As for Nav, the PTS as I read it says:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
and radar services.
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
system.
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
appropriate.
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
appropriate.
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
services.

Nothing in there about VOR radios per se. As I read it if the plane had a garmin mounted on the glare shield, and the pilot could use it, it would meet PTS. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the last time) but it doesn't look like a deal killer.

I've seen modern cubs outfitted with all of that (IFR-rated glass panels and GPS nav) but they are the minority. Still, if the OP wanted to upgrade their cub it could probably be done, and the cost would be offset by not having to rent again.
 
dosstx said:
Hi all,
I'm a Sport Pilot (got my ticket last year). I got about 50hrs total with about 97% of that time in a J3 Cub.

I'm 30 years old and own a Cub, but I know I can't use it for the private pilot ticket. I am interested in possibly pursuing a full private pilot ticket and was wondering if anyone could help me figure out the costs involved taking into consideration that I can use my sport pilot time towards the PPL?
Click to expand...

Doing some reading on the sport pilot to PPL thing and here is a very important question for you - was your initial instructor for your sport pilot license a full CFI or a Sport Pilot CFI?

This apparently makes a HUGE difference - if it was with a regular CFI, then the training you did for the Sport Pilot all counts toward the PPL. If, however, the instructor was on a Sport Pilot CFI, then you will need to retrain alot of stuff with a full CFI.

Some more info here:
http://sport-pilot-training.com/private-pilot/
 
ziege said:
Still, if the OP wanted to upgrade their cub it could probably be done, and the cost would be offset by not having to rent again.
Click to expand...

That's a really interesting point and I'll have to think it over a bit.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Doing some reading on the sport pilot to PPL thing and here is a very important question for you - was your initial instructor for your sport pilot license a full CFI or a Sport Pilot CFI?

This apparently makes a HUGE difference - if it was with a regular CFI, then the training you did for the Sport Pilot all counts toward the PPL. If, however, the instructor was on a Sport Pilot CFI, then you will need to retrain alot of stuff with a full CFI.

Some more info here:
http://sport-pilot-training.com/private-pilot/
Click to expand...

Yep, with a regular CFI. I was sure to check that before posting my original question. Thanks!
 
dosstx said:
Hi all,
I'm 30 years old and own a Cub, but I know I can't use it for the private pilot ticket.
Click to expand...

And I am going to ask the "Why not?" question, too. Unless you can demonstrate all of the PTS requirements, it is true that you will have to do SOME of your training and at least a portion of your checkride in something that can demonstrate those requirements. But there is nothing that says you can't do a majority of your training in the Cub.
 
ziege said:
I've seen modern cubs outfitted with all of that (IFR-rated glass panels and GPS nav) but they are the minority. Still, if the OP wanted to upgrade their cub it could probably be done, and the cost would be offset by not having to rent again.
Click to expand...

I don't think there are too many J-3s with onboard electrical systems. I don't think there is much he can do to upgrade - cost in both dollars and added weight is probably not worth it.
 
Can I use a GPS for all the nav stuff?

I would obviously like to use the Cub for as much training as possible, however, the real reason why I want to pursue a PPL is because I would like to rent faster aircraft for XC in the future or perhaps even buy a cheap Cessna.

The other idea is to rent a "fast" light sport aircraft for XC purposes.
 
ziege said:
Lack of gyro instruments/glass equivalent (for simulated IFR) ... didn't think of that but yeah, not many cubs with a 6-pack.

As for Nav, the PTS as I read it says:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
and radar services.
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
system.
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
appropriate.
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
appropriate.
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
services.

Nothing in there about VOR radios per se. As I read it if the plane had a garmin mounted on the glare shield, and the pilot could use it, it would meet PTS. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the last time) but it doesn't look like a deal killer.

I've seen modern cubs outfitted with all of that (IFR-rated glass panels and GPS nav) but they are the minority. Still, if the OP wanted to upgrade their cub it could probably be done, and the cost would be offset by not having to rent again.
Click to expand...


Could a person not satisfy these requirements with a handheld Nav Com?

Quite honestly, I'm quite surprised that you can't get your PPL with a J3 Cub. You could certainly at least accomplish many of your training hours in it.

Doc

Doc
 
dosstx said:
Can I use a GPS for all the nav stuff?
Click to expand...

You can certainly use a handheld GPS for the x-country training, but my understanding has always been that DPEs want to see you actually track a VOR radial on the checkride.
 
Doc asks a great question.

Even if the plane has no electrical system, pay a mechanic to install an antenna and buy an icom... that should cover nav and radio though it's a bit of a pain. Almost certainly cleaper than dual in a rented plane to learn the same skills.
 
dosstx said:
Hi all,
I'm a Sport Pilot (got my ticket last year). I got about 50hrs total with about 97% of that time in a J3 Cub.

I'm 30 years old and own a Cub, but I know I can't use it for the private pilot ticket. I am interested in possibly pursuing a full private pilot ticket and was wondering if anyone could help me figure out the costs involved taking into consideration that I can use my sport pilot time towards the PPL?
Click to expand...

Stick an Aspen or a G-600 and a 4xxW in and you're good to go. If your instructor was CFI-A then you can count your SP training. If your instructor was CFI-SP, you cannot. It really won't amount to a great difference though.
 
Henning said:
Stick an Aspen or a G-600 and a 4xxW in and you're good to go.
Click to expand...

In a J-3? Where's he gonna get the juice?

Where's he gonna mount it?

.watermarked_1fc24fdbe0aceb4632a676da849cd31b.jpg
 
Fearless Tower said:
In a J-3? Where's he gonna get the juice?

Where's he gonna mount it?
Click to expand...

Juice comes from a battery and a fan driven alternator between the mains, same way they've been putting electrical systems in all these type planes for 60 years.

The mounting can be done, I'd just have to see the space in three dimensions to figure the best way. There are no insurmountable problems here, they aren't even particularly difficult.
 
Henning said:
Juice comes from a battery and a fan driven alternator between the mains, same way they've been putting electrical systems in all these type planes for 60 years.

The mounting can be done, I'd just have to see the space in three dimensions to figure the best way. There are no insurmountable problems here, they aren't even particularly difficult.
Click to expand...

Okay, so lets say you find panel space to mount and get it all wired to work properly (and safely). How much weight is he going to lose to install everything? It's only a 90hp engine.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Okay, so lets say you find panel space to mount and get it all wired to work properly (and safely). How much weight is he going to lose to install everything? It's only a 90hp engine.
Click to expand...
Most of the pilots these days could easily drop enough weight to make the difference if they'd just eat a few less Twinkies.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Okay, so lets say you find panel space to mount and get it all wired to work properly (and safely). How much weight is he going to lose to install everything? It's only a 90hp engine.
Click to expand...
20lbs+/-... Look, if you want to find defeat, it's always available and is almost always the cheapest easiest solution. Conversely, if you want to find success, it too is almost always available, you just have to try harder. If you don't want an electrical system and stuff, no worries, just don't say "Can't be done". I'm so sick of hearing that phrase I'm going to start summarily executing people who use it as their first answer. As for performance, dude, it's a Cub, they and the Champs, they do the same no matter what, and if he has 90hp in a J3, he has the upgrade version already.
 
Last edited:
Guess what? Handheld NavCom's have a battery hanging on the bottom of them?

When I flew my first six hours in an Aeronca Champ we had a battery powered intercom. Worked great.

Even if you rigged a fan powered alternator, it would not add a big amount of weight. The problem with that is it is permanenly attached, which will require weight and balance data from an IA, or maybe an A&P.

So what if the plane only has 90 Horsepower? He's not going up to break the sound barrier. He only wants to putt around and get his license. Flight time is measured in hours, not miles. My plane only has 100 horsepower and weighs alot more than a J3 Cub. It won't break the sound barrier either, but it runs a six pack and center stack IFR panel and putts through the air just fine.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Even if you rigged a fan powered alternator, it would not add a big amount of weight. The problem with that is it is permanenly attached, which will require weight and balance data from an IA, or maybe an A&P.
Click to expand...

If that defines a "problem", then, I just don't know what to say to that.
 
You could rig up a system like mine in the Cub with a handheld radio. The big deal would be to get a panel mounted GPS system and an examiner that would approve it.

Ryan
 
Henning said:
20lbs+/-... Look, if you want to find defeat, it's always available and is almost always the cheapest easiest solution. Conversely, if you want to find success, it too is almost always available, you just have to try harder. If you don't want an electrical system and stuff, no worries, just don't say "Can't be done". I'm so sick of hearing that phrase I'm going to start summarily executing people who use it as their first answer. As for performance, dude, it's a Cub, they and the Champs, they do the same no matter what, and if he has 90hp in a J3, he has the upgrade version already.
Click to expand...

Henning, let's get back to reality for a minute here - Almost anything is possible given sufficient money - I do agree with that.

The OP's first question was how much upgrading a SP to PPL was going to cost. When that's your FIRST question, you probably aren't looking for the most expensive way to do it!
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Stick an Aspen or a G-600 and a 4xxW in and you're good to go.
Click to expand...

That would solve the hood time. However, just thinking about it... if the J-3 doesn't have an electrical system he's going to have to rent another plane at least 3 hours ANYWAY to fulfill the night requirements (or instal lights and so on...li'l bit o' whacha might call snowballing going on). It can be done but quickly ceases to be cost effective.


Probably best to just rent for the lessons. Personally, I'd get an A24 (or VS-whatever) and mount an antenna anyway, and practice with it independently of any lessons, but that's just me.
 
Yes, my comment about having the plane weighed was because it would cost money. Believe it or not, there are a few of us in aviation that forgot to water the money tree in the back yard and it died.

Is a handheld Nav Com a legal way to get the job done?

Doc
 
dosstx said:
Can I use a GPS for all the nav stuff?

I would obviously like to use the Cub for as much training as possible, however, the real reason why I want to pursue a PPL is because I would like to rent faster aircraft for XC in the future or perhaps even buy a cheap Cessna.

The other idea is to rent a "fast" light sport aircraft for XC purposes.
Click to expand...
Since it seems that you want to try out other aircraft by renting I would do as much in the Cub as possible and rent something for the tasks you cannot do in the Cub. That's going to be much cheaper than putting all kinds of avionics in the Cub, that is unless you really want all those extra avionics.
 
ziege said:
That would solve the hood time. However, just thinking about it... if the J-3 doesn't have an electrical system he's going to have to rent another plane at least 3 hours ANYWAY to fulfill the night requirements (or instal lights and so on...li'l bit o' whacha might call snowballing going on). It can be done but quickly ceases to be cost effective.


Probably best to just rent for the lessons. Personally, I'd get an A24 (or VS-whatever) and mount an antenna anyway, and practice with it independently of any lessons, but that's just me.
Click to expand...


Really, he might as well:

1) Remain SP and fly the J-3 VFR.
2) Become PP and upgrade the J-3 to take advantage of the increased utility of being able to get an IR.
3) Become PP and upgrade to a more capable airplane that PP allows. Keep or sell the J3 as finances allow.

He can probably trade a good J-3 for an old 182.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Really, he might as well:

1) Remain SP and fly the J-3 VFR.
2) Become PP and upgrade the J-3 to take advantage of the increased utility of being able to get an IR.
3) Become PP and upgrade to a more capable airplane. Keep or sell the J3 as finances allow.
Click to expand...

Or, arguably better than any of those:

4) Own an airplane which allows him to accomplish his primary mission, and simultaneously take whatever steps are needed to rent aircraft to accomplish secondary missions as needed.

It's kinda like how many people own cars for our primary mission (driving to/from work, grocery runs, etc) and rent trucks for those secondary missions requiring truck capabilities (moving, buying furniture, etc).

It totally depends on the OP's mission(s)... if he sees an 80% local day VFR with up to 1 passenger + 15% VFR longer distance or with more than 1 passenger + 5% IFR/long distance/etc, I would say his best bet would be to keep his J-3, rent a 172 for SP->PP transition and as needed for the 15%, and fly commercial for the final 5%. For someone with a different mix of missions I would suggest something else.

Everyone has multiple missions and few of us can afford to own the tools for every scenario we'll encounter.
 
ziege said:
Or, arguably better than any of those:

4) Own an airplane which allows him to accomplish his primary mission, and simultaneously take whatever steps are needed to rent aircraft to accomplish secondary missions as needed.
Click to expand...

Good in theory, not in practice though when the "as needed" missions are the ones that will require the greater level of proficiency. If he is already tired of the limitations of SP, he will likely get an IR and that requires staying proficient. The whole "owning & renting" thing doesn't really work. The best it works is like I had in Long Beach with 4 other guys like me, we had disparate airplanes of similar cost structure and would just trade among each other. We also shared a fuel truck and everybody kept tabs of what they used. That has proven to be a rare situation to come across.
 
Last edited:
Fearless Tower said:
You can certainly use a handheld GPS for the x-country training, but my understanding has always been that DPEs want to see you actually track a VOR radial on the checkride.
Click to expand...

Select a point in the GPS, select OBS mode, select desired "radial", intercept and track. :idea:
 
dosstx said:
Can I use a GPS for all the nav stuff?

I would obviously like to use the Cub for as much training as possible, however, the real reason why I want to pursue a PPL is because I would like to rent faster aircraft for XC in the future or perhaps even buy a cheap Cessna.

The other idea is to rent a "fast" light sport aircraft for XC purposes.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're already looking to rent, then I'd say do as much as you can in the Cub, and rent the faster aircraft (which presumably has the requisite avionics for the PPL) for some training and that part of the check ride. The FBO is going to require a checkout anyway, and this should suffice.
 
jesse said:
Most of the pilots these days could easily drop enough weight to make the difference if they'd just eat a few less Twinkies.
Click to expand...

Hey it took years of twinkies and sitting on my ass at a desk job to get this body.

Sheesh. Whippersnapper! ;)
 
Back to the original posters question.....

I took my check ride in an airplane with an questionable VOR and no gyro's besides the turn and bank. Needle, ball and airspeed were acceptable to the examiner, he had me dial in the VOR to show that I knew how it was supposed to work and he had me explain tracking from and to a station on a radial. I volunteered to use my handheld to demonstrate but he declined as apparently my explanations were satisfactory.
That was some years ago....1989 to be exact but the point is, examiners have some leeway in this and talking to the examiner you'll be flying with is a good way to start. There is a lot of knowledge on the boards but none of us are with you on the checkride but the examiner is and has the final say. You may be fine using a handheld radio with a VOR, there are a lot of them out there. You may be ok using a portable GPS for nav. Find out from the source if they are acceptable. In reality the time spent in a 172 getting ready for your ride will be worth the cost. You'll end up being ready to fly with more confidence and knowledge of the doo-dads and widgets. I still find after all these years that I'd miss setting the directional gyro without a checklist because none of the planes I did my primary and PP in had one. Getting into the more complex panels before you have a lot of time in will help you in the long run.


Frank
 
BillTIZ said:
Select a point in the GPS, select OBS mode, select desired "radial", intercept and track. :idea:
Click to expand...

But WILL a DPE accept that? I honestly don't know. I have heard that they won't, but I have no reference saying that either way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top