going for CPL ,split time

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dedalo

Filing Flight Plan
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dedalo
Hi guys, I just landed to this forum and it looks like the right place for this post.
I'll try to make a long story short : I am italian (it happens) with A FAA PPL and 100 hours ; my intentions are to come back to US in October or November and move on with my training (IFR , MEL AND CPL).I am not rich and I have to cut the expenditures as much as I can.
My idea is to find a flying club where to rent a block of hours and split the time with someone else with a similar need , maybe to find a CFI without going to a flight school.
I need suggestion :is this a good idea ?Is there anyone avalaible for sharing the expense?Is it better going for IFR first ?
Any help/advice is strongly appreciated
 
You should definitely call around to flight schools/FBOs but I think you will find most will not be interested in allowing you to split rental blocks with other people. Many will not allow you to grab a freelance CFI for rental in their aircraft.

Your best bet would be to find a club with decent aircraft and instructor availability. You may be able to find other club members to play safety pilot with you ,etc... that might further decrease your costs.

What sort of Visa are you planning to enter with? You can't enter with a VWP if the purpose of your visit is flight training. You'll need an M-1 or some other student visa which will limit your choices of schools to those who know how to handle this.
 
Lately I have been so focused on the training issue and I forgot to think about the visa.I don't even remember what kind of visa I requested when I started my training the first time in 2011 But ,yes I did it trough a flight school.Do you think I have to do that again ?I definetely have to call the embassy for information , this time I probably need more time.In the worst scenario I will restart from my old school and later on moving to a flying club.Do you think is a good idea anyway ?
 
If your visa isn't still good, you will certainly need another.

You can't move on to a flying club unless they are capable of handling the visa issue (doubtful). That doesn't mean you can't shop around for schools with better rates that can handle your special situation.
 
It's none of their business, as long as you both can act as PIC in the plane, go up and shotgun some hours. That's how smart CPL students do it.
 
James331 said:
It's none of their business, as long as you both can act as PIC in the plane, go up and shotgun some hours. That's how smart CPL students do it.
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What's that, lie in their logbook and rating application? Commit immigration fraud?
 
I am just talking about logging saftey pilot time Ron.

If he can get his papers straight to do flight training, I don't see why he can't find another student to log saftey pilot time with IAW with the FARs.
 
dedalo said:
Hi guys, I just landed to this forum and it looks like the right place for this post.
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Welcome to PoA -- hope you find it helpful.
I'll try to make a long story short : I am italian (it happens) with A FAA PPL and 100 hours ; my intentions are to come back to US in October or November and move on with my training (IFR , MEL AND CPL).I am not rich and I have to cut the expenditures as much as I can.
My idea is to find a flying club where to rent a block of hours and split the time with someone else with a similar need , maybe to find a CFI without going to a flight school.
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There are certainly flying clubs around where that might be done, except for the fact that you are going to have to be here on a student visa to take flight training like that, and flying clubs generally don't have the paperwork to host someone on a student visa for flight training.

Also, since you are not a US citizen, there is a lot of paperwork involved in obtaining approval from the Transportation Security Administration to take training for the instrument and multiengine ratings, and most flight clubs don't have the mechanisms to do that. For more on that part of it, see:
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/afsp2/?acct_type=c&section=WN

Is it better going for IFR first ?
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Yes. You can start the instrument rating training now and use that training time towards the 250 hours you need for the commercial certificate. However, if you wait until after completing the CP to do the instrument rating, you'll receive only limited CP privileges, and they you'll still have to do a lot more flying to complete the IR.

There are a number of flight schools in the US which specialize in making the arrangements for non-US students to come here and do their training. Those schools are wired into both the State Department visa and the TSA non-US citizen approval processes, as well as having ways to buddy up and increase flight hours. Some schools I know which do these are:
Pan Am International Flight Academy
Flight Safety International
Aerosim Flight Academy

You'll note they all have International Student tabs on their home pages. I suggest you contact them for more information about not only what they offer, but the necessary processes for you to come to the US for flight training.
 
Check out angelaviation.com in Glendale, AZ.

They are a smaller operation that seems to have a decent number of intl students. Reasonable prices.
 
Do you want to learn to fly? If so, stop with this crap and spend your time learning to fly. 250 real hours is still not very much. 250 hours that are half fake, even if "legal", are even less.
 
James331 said:
WTF are you talking about Ron?

Two pilots logging PIC time, one as saftey pilot, one as the guy under the hood is completely leagle.
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:sigh: In theory, yes, but in reality, the two yo-yo's I mentioned got emergency revocations that stood up on appeal. If you have over 200 flights where "two logbooks were mirror-images of each other", the FAA is going to hear the duck quacking and investigate. If you want to try this routine, make sure you document it really carefully and you don't have identical flight times for the pilot flying and the safety pilot.
 
thanks for your advice guys : it is not my intention doing anything illegal or unwise.I just need to save some bucks during my time building and training.I will fly as the sole occupant of the aircraft for most of the time .I thought that flying under the hoods could be useful for enhancing my IFR/IMC skills (and saving some money).Splittin time is an advice given to me by my CFI during the PPL training .
Maybe starting with some solo cross country is the first step ,once there I will find a school/flying club that suits me and apply for training as international student.
 
Well it's legal, and probably more legit compared to some guy fiddling around in a plane he can't even act as PIC in and logging it (As seen on the other thread).

To the OP, read the FAR, logging PIC time as saftey pilot is 100% legit, not kinda legit, 100 frigin percent legit. Obviously the guy isn't going to be under the good for landings or takeoff, so your logs will never be a mirror of each others, someone will log a little more time, etc (depending on who does what).

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...-Cross-Country-Time/Logging-Time-Safety-Pilot

On a side note I've also noticed it can help build a little CRM.
 
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James331 said:
Well it's legal, and probably more legit compared to some guy fiddle around in a plane he can't even act as PIC in and logging it (As seen on the other thread).
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You just can't get over the fact that that is legal, can you.
 
Lol, yeah Ive always thought that was ridiculous and never logged it, alas it is legal though, JUST AS LOGGING PIC AS A SAFTEY PILOT :yes:
 
James331 said:
Lol, yeah Ive always thought that was ridiculous and never logged it, alas it is legal though, JUST AS LOGGING PIC AS A SAFTEY PILOT :yes:
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Well, that may or may not be legal, depending on whether or not you are acting as PIC as well as safety pilot. OTOH, the described logging under discussion is legal, period, without further conditions.
 
Nope, it's legal, everyday and twice on Sunday.

Just like anything else you need to follow the rules while doing it, I even posted the AOPA snippet on it with the details.
 
James331 said:
Nope, it's legal, everyday and twice on Sunday.
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Logging PIC time when you're acting as safety pilot is not legal unless you're also acting as PIC (and that means being fully PIC-qualified, including flight review, ratings, endorsements, landings, IFR as applicable, etc). To merely say "LOGGING PIC AS A SAFTEY PILOT" is legal is a dangerously incomplete statement without that additional qualification.
 
Find a CFI that wants to build time fast and split a C152. My flight school has them for 86/hr plus tax for the club rate. You fly, he instructs on cross country stuff. 45/hr isn't bad. There are fractional ownership places too I think where you can find planes for 50-70/hr to cut down on costs even more.
 
nimdabew said:
Find a CFI that wants to build time fast and split a C152. My flight school has them for 86/hr plus tax for the club rate. You fly, he instructs on cross country stuff. 45/hr isn't bad. There are fractional ownership places too I think where you can find planes for 50-70/hr to cut down on costs even more.
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That sounds good ,indeed .. could you give me further details on that ?
 
Ron Levy said:
Logging PIC time when you're acting as safety pilot is not legal unless you're also acting as PIC (and that means being fully PIC-qualified, including flight review, ratings, endorsements, landings, IFR as applicable, etc). To merely say "LOGGING PIC AS A SAFTEY PILOT" is legal is a dangerously incomplete statement without that additional qualification.
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Hence why I said its legal if you follow the rules, I even posted the snippet from APOA to be clear.
 
James331 said:
Hence why I said its legal if you follow the rules, I even posted the snippet from APOA to be clear.
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That's not what you said. You first said "logging PIC time as saftey pilot is 100% legit, not kinda legit, 100 frigin percent legit". Then you said, "it is legal though, JUST AS LOGGING PIC AS A SAFTEY PILOT". When I objected to those unconditional statements by saying, "Well, that may or may not be legal, depending on whether or not you are acting as PIC as well as safety pilot," you responded "Nope, it's legal, everyday and twice on Sunday," and that's not correct. It's only legal if you are also acting as PIC, and it doesn't matter which day of the week it is. So please stop saying it's legal without clearly stating the associated restrictions, not just posting a link in which those restrictions are deeply buried.
 
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Sigh..... to the OP read the AOPA link I posted and go forth and log time.

FYI most CPL students use saftey pilot time (IAW the FARs) to build time up economically, I did it when I was working on my CPL, it also helped a bit on my instrument training.

Blue skies
 
James331 said:
Sigh..... to the OP read the AOPA link I posted and go forth and log time.



FYI most CPL students use saftey pilot time (IAW the FARs) to build time up economically, I did it when I was working on my CPL, it also helped a bit on my instrument training.



Blue skies
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Agreed. Do your research, honestly and legally log the safety pilot time and get the hours you need.

I think it's a good thing. Network and teamwork with another pilot of similar experience to tackle a few XC's and build some time is never a bad thing.

I flew 20 hours or so toward my instrument rating under the hood while a friend logged the safety pilot time towards his 1500 hours and ATP. We took turns flying left seat and under the hood, flew a lot of approaches and flew all over the southeast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Check your PMs, he should be able to hook you up with everything you're looking for, plus you'll be basing out of Ft Lauderdale FL so not much lost flying time to weather but still able to get good time in actual IMC.
 
dedalo said:
Lately I have been so focused on the training issue and I forgot to think about the visa.I don't even remember what kind of visa I requested when I started my training the first time in 2011 But ,yes I did it trough a flight school.Do you think I have to do that again ?I definetely have to call the embassy for information , this time I probably need more time.In the worst scenario I will restart from my old school and later on moving to a flying club.Do you think is a good idea anyway ?
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You're Italian, that's a visa waiver country, same as me living in Italy. Since you already have a FAA-Airman's Certificate, the rest of the TSA stuff should be straight forward. I'm pretty sure you are fine to take flight training on the visa waiver status, just make sure about the TSA stuff, call the guy I sent you the number of, he'll square you away, he's a good guy.
 
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dedalo said:
That sounds good ,indeed .. could you give me further details on that ?
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There are individuals out there that rent their aircraft to others that go through the whole nine yards to be legal so they can enjoy their plane their one weekend per month that they need and charge people for about 15-20/hr + gas to help pay for their lease/whatever. I know of one off the top of my head right now that does 67/hr wet for a C172. If you had someone that you knew that had a bit of cash and wanted to split time with you, preferable a CFI, then you can do that legally but it can get ito grey areas quick if you aren't careful.
 
Henning said:
You're Italian, that's a visa waiver country, same as me living in Italy.
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That doesn't apply to the M-visa he needs to take an aviation training program.

Since you already have a FAA-Airman's Certificate, the rest of the TSA stuff should be straight forward.
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Only if he's gone through it before. Initial application is otherwise the same.

I'm pretty sure you are fine to take flight training on the visa waiver status,
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The State Department says otherwise.
http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/study-exchange/student.html
This isn't "recreational study as part of a tourist visit".
 
James331 said:
Sigh..... to the OP read the AOPA link I posted and go forth and log time.

FYI most CPL students use saftey pilot time (IAW the FARs) to build time up economically, I did it when I was working on my CPL, it also helped a bit on my instrument training.

Blue skies
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I read the Aopa post. I found this too that may help to understand .https://engineering.purdue.edu/PPI/safetypilot.php
anyway I believe that splitting time cuold be either good or bad.At the and of the day is just a matter of "why you are doing that". If cheating is the goal of course is wrong.
A fresh PPL pilot surely has a need of training ; cheating usually doesn't help up in the air
 
Cheating? If he's flowing the rules it ain't cheating.

Also there is plenty to learn with another pilot
 
Man I'm getting a giggle reading this! LOL. James PM sent...

What PO's me is that I could have logged a lot of hours as safety pilot doing approaches with my buddies. Argh!

Paul
 
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Henning said:
I think it is recreational study since it's non credit, pretty sure that is what they use as the distinguishing factor.
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I think you're wrong because it's a commercial pilot certificate, and thus constitutes "vocational non-academic" training (M-visa rather than the regular student F-visa for college and the like), so I would suggest you confirm this with the State Department before you tell people to just show up here for this training with only a tourist B-visa.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you're wrong because it's a commercial pilot certificate, and thus constitutes "vocational non-academic" training (M-visa rather than the regular student F-visa for college and the like), so I would suggest you confirm this with the State Department before you tell people to just show up here for this training with only a tourist B-visa.
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I agree .For training I need a visa:Buy I think I don't for time building.
 
dedalo said:
"recurrent training "
http://http://www.aopa.org/-/media/...m Content Vol 8 Issue 29/041020tsa_notice.pdf
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What the OP proposes to build time (flying with someone and splitting the time) is not "recurrent training" as TSA defines it unless the other person is a CFI giving the OP training. In fact, it isn't training at all, and thus requires no TSA approval. Also, CP training in an aircraft for which the OP already holds the rating does not require TSA approval. However, the instrument training the OP also proposes, plus ME training (which is necessary if the OP is serious about professional pilot career) both do require that TSA approval since the OP is not a US national.

That said, if the other person is a CFI giving the OP training, the question will be what training is being given, and if it's training which could be used for the IR, I suspect TSA will want the approval process completed.

However, none of that has anything to do with the State Department's visa requirements, and if the OP is planning to get CP training in the US, I'm pretty sure that's going to require an M-visa.
 
So.... Ron..... Are you one of those Feds people talk about?
 
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