Going for an IA: random questions

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GauzeGuy

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Going for an instrument rating: random questions

I decided to start on my rating, first lesson on Friday...

I have a couple areas of concern at first glance:

1) holding patterns

2) communications

I've found a couple helpful threads here, but I'm also looking for additional resources out there that could prove helpful. I've been going through the Sporty's video series, the FAA books and some other random things. I just bought the ASA Instrument Procedures Tutorial, and am lukewarm on it thus far. LiveATC is somewhat helpful but I still most feel lost listening to IFR comms. Any recommendations on better resources?
 
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First things first, the other stuff will come naturally in due time. Worry about learning your airplane's numbers and read about scans and other fundamentals.

GauzeGuy said:
I decided to start on my rating, first lesson on Friday...

I have a couple areas of concern at first glance:

1) holding patterns

2) communications

I've found a couple helpful threads here, but I'm also looking for additional resources out there that could prove helpful. I've been going through the Sporty's video series, the FAA books and some other random things. I just bought the ASA Instrument Procedures Tutorial, and am lukewarm on it thus far. LiveATC is somewhat helpful but I still most feel lost listening to IFR comms. Any recommendations on better resources?
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I agree with what Wayne said. Holds will come in time and are no big deal. If you fly with me you'll do a lot of them. Communications also comes. There's a standard sequence to clearances (CRAFT) which you'll get used to. It's all a process. Just relax and enjoy it.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I always thought an "IA" rating was Inspection Authorization and an Instrument Rating was just that, an "IR".:dunno:
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Instrument Airplane is what I was thinking of, but if IR is the correct phraseology, I stand corrected.

Thanks to all for the advice to chill out. I guess I'm just a little gun shy after having a private certificate that was 50% longer and twice as difficult as necessary...
 
Not unusual to try to anticipate what's coming, and good for you to be thinking about it. You'll do fine.

GauzeGuy said:
Instrument Airplane is what I was thinking of, but if IR is the correct phraseology, I stand corrected.

Thanks to all for the advice to chill out. I guess I'm just a little gun shy after having a private certificate that was 50% longer and twice as difficult as necessary...
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I felt totally lost when I was on my forst IFR flight plan with my instructor. He took care of most of the radio calls and told me to do whatever I could and look at him if I got lost. I gradually started picking up more and more on the radio and feel quite ready for my practical test.

I also was worried about holding. Turns out there's nothing to it really. As for holding pattern entry, figuring out the 70/110/180 degrees off your heading for entry is nice on the ground or when you have time...but when you need it on the fly, use the hand to the side of turns (right turns, right hand; left turns, left hand), extend your thumb, index, and pinky, and face your palm on your DG/HI/HSI with the index on your heading. Pinky to index is teardrop, index to thumb is parallel, and the rest is direct entry.
 
I've read that the only thing you'll need to have those recommended holding entries down for is the written. Reasons:

1. Your chances of actually being asked to hold in a real life situation are next to zero -- my current CFII says he can recall only ONE (1) time in his entire flying career (decades) that he was given a hold by ATC.

2. The recommended entries are just that, recommended. They aren't regulatory. They make for what is usually but not always the smoothest way to get set up in the holding pattern. As long as you go around the racetrack in the right direction and don't leave the protected airspace, pretty much anything you do is okay with ATC.

3. My current CFII told me that the best entry to any hold is the one that looks easiest and most direct given the pattern and the conditions. That sounds about right to me.

On my checkride, the DPE had me fly the RNAV 18 @ KFNT to the published miss, which has a hold at POLAR with 4 nm legs. As we approached the holding fix, the DPE asked me how I was going to enter the hold. I told him that the recommended entry was parallel (and you don't need any funny diagrams to see that, it's pretty obvious), but that I was going to do a teardrop. The DPE agreed, then said that he absolutely never does parallel entries anyway, always direct or teardrop, because a parallel involves too many turns to get established on the inbound course. My reason was so that I'd be turning INTO the 35 kt wind blowing across the racetrack after going out 4 miles, instead of turning WITH it and getting blown a lot farther from the holding fix. Either way, it was NOT a problem, the DPE wasn't going to fail me because I used a nonrecommended entry.
 
azure said:
1. Your chances of actually being asked to hold in a real life situation are next to zero -- my current CFII says he can recall only ONE (1) time in his entire flying career (decades) that he was given a hold by ATC.
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There are two situations that I can think of where holds happen on occasion. One is going into a busy airport which is being impacted by weather or traffic volume. The other is going into a non-radar airport when the preceding airplane has not canceled IFR. If this does not describe the flying you do then it will be rare to get assigned a hold.
 
I've been asked by approach or tower to "hold" when VFR a few times, usually over a VOR with basic instructions. When IFR, never.
 
Everskyward said:
There are two situations that I can think of where holds happen on occasion. One is going into a busy airport which is being impacted by weather or traffic volume. The other is going into a non-radar airport when the preceding airplane has not canceled IFR. If this does not describe the flying you do then it will be rare to get assigned a hold.
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Good to know! Thanks.
 
GauzeGuy said:
Instrument Airplane is what I was thinking of, but if IR is the correct phraseology, I stand corrected.
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My certificate says "Instrument Airplane" on it. IA is appropriate. If it was helicopter you were going for, it'd be IH. IR is apparently for "Instrument Raft"... :)
 
RotorAndWing said:
I always thought an "IA" rating was Inspection Authorization and an Instrument Rating was just that, an "IR".:dunno:
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Well, you are correct...but we've got to cut a few breaks now and then....
everskyward said:
There are two situations that I can think of where holds happen on occasion. One is going into a busy airport which is being impacted by weather or traffic volume. The other is going into a non-radar airport when the preceding airplane has not canceled IFR. If this does not describe the flying you do then it will be rare to get assigned a hold.
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Yup, happend to me at Bozeman, MT. Held at 14,000, then declined the step down to 12,000 as the ATR in front of me, had just encoutered moderate clear ice at that altitude. "I'll continue to hold here at 14, until cleared for the approach - I'll do the worrying about how to get down".

Really rare, but when you need it you need it.
 
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I recently heard ATC give instruction to a commercial airliner to execute a hold. His response was less than confident. Almost as if he was shocked to get the instruction. Not sure if the controller picked up on it but the order was shortly recended. I just don't think it happens very often.
 
andybean said:
I recently heard ATC give instruction to a commercial airliner to execute a hold. His response was less than confident. Almost as if he was shocked to get the instruction. Not sure if the controller picked up on it but the order was shortly recended. I just don't think it happens very often.
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I hear a lot more holds issued to airliners than small airplanes. Especially if they are landing in Denver during thunderstorm season.
 
andybean said:
I recently heard ATC give instruction to a commercial airliner to execute a hold. His response was less than confident. Almost as if he was shocked to get the instruction. Not sure if the controller picked up on it but the order was shortly recended. I just don't think it happens very often.
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FMS - Hold
 
I was issued an IFR-style hold (complete with EFC time) a few hours before my instrument checkride, and we weren't even on an IFR flight plan; just had requested a practice approach. An IFR aircraft was inbound to the same airport.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I've been asked by approach or tower to "hold" when VFR a few times, usually over a VOR with basic instructions. When IFR, never.
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You haven't flown in the northeast when airports are near minimums.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I've been asked by approach or tower to "hold" when VFR a few times, usually over a VOR with basic instructions. When IFR, never.
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I dind't know Holding was in the Private Pilot (VFR) PTS (sarcastic).
 
Jaybird180 said:
I dind't know Holding was in the Private Pilot (VFR) PTS (sarcastic).
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And yet ;)

Being instrument rated and /U I actually flew very nice one minute legs and didn't say anything. I doubt they cared about my precision - on two occasions they wanted me out of the way for an instrument approach inbound in actual. Or in one case I was waiting for visibility to improve for a legal special VFR arrival.

If I had said "unable" or "uhhh-what?!?" they would have probably said "orbit near the VOR at x altitude" instead.
 
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alaskaflyer said:
And yet ;)

Being instrument rated and /U I actually flew very nice one minute legs and didn't say anything. I doubt they cared about my precision - on two occasions they wanted me out of the way for an instrument approach inbound in actual. Or in one case I was waiting for visibility to improve for a legal special VFR arrival.

If I had said "unable" or "uhhh-what?!?" they would have probably said "orbit near the VFR at x altitude" instead.
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Maybe they had you mixed up with IFR traffic? Selfridge Approach once told me to "descend and maintain 5000" when I checked in from Center. I complied -- back then I had no idea that they had "no authority to issue altitude restrictions to VFR aircraft in Class E airspace". A few minutes later they asked me if I was VFR or IFR. Just an innocent mistake.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I always thought an "IA" rating was Inspection Authorization and an Instrument Rating was just that, an "IR".:dunno:
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I thought he was going for an Iowa. :rofl:

My cert says "Instrument Airplane" - And it's not the first time the same abbreviation has been used for multiple things in aviation.
 
I was coming back into Dulles one day and they were holding airliners over MRB. I didn't know what was going on but I begged approach if they could sneak me in I'd appreciate it.
Turns out there was a major thunderstorm sitting right on top of the airport. We landed at JYO and waited it out for a bit.

The only time I've ever flown a hold for other than "instructional" purposes is the airport I frequently fly the ILS into has a hold-in-loo on it. While ATC will offer vectors to final on that one, it is almost always LONGER than if I just flew to the IAF and did a loop around the pattern. One time when I was coming up to the fix ATC called traffic ahead (beyond the hold) that he was NOT talking to. Since I was in solid IMC I figured another turn in the hold wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
wabower said:
First things first, the other stuff will come naturally in due time. Worry about learning your airplane's numbers and read about scans and other fundamentals.
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This is true. Also, I found that especially when it comes to flying IFR a flight sim such as MSX is a great tool for practicing holds, airways, and approaches. they suck at actual flying practice but instrument procedures can be practiced really well on MSX, with real approach plates along side.
 
Re: Going for an instrument rating: random questions

GauzeGuy said:
I decided to start on my rating, first lesson on Friday...

I have a couple areas of concern at first glance:

1) holding patterns

2) communications

I've found a couple helpful threads here, but I'm also looking for additional resources out there that could prove helpful. I've been going through the Sporty's video series, the FAA books and some other random things. I just bought the ASA Instrument Procedures Tutorial, and am lukewarm on it thus far. LiveATC is somewhat helpful but I still most feel lost listening to IFR comms. Any recommendations on better resources?
Click to expand...

Get the Kirschner book on instrument flying. Read it til you understand the material cold. One other resource I would recommend is go to the Avweb Archives and read Don Brown's columns. All of em. A few of his have rants on them, but his columns gave me a great understanding of the national airspace system. You can be a good instrument pilot without having read them, but if you are a "why" person, these columns give you a lot of then-relevant information.

Learn the power settings for your airplane - what throttle and prop settings (if adjustable pitch) = what airspeed. For the average GA instrument trainer, I think good numbers to know are 90 kts straight and level and 90 kts in a 500 fpm descent. So when you intercept the glideslope you just have to make a single change to go from level to on-slope descent. You might have to fine tune it later, but this will get you close.

Instrument flying isn't just about weather. Its about precision. Its about maintaining your altitude within tolerances. Its about standard rate turns. Its about timing... and communication... and understanding the airspace system. If you dont already, use VFR flight following in all your VFR flying if able - you will get more practice talking to ATC and learning to anticipate what they want and when they want it - making you more efficient.


And remember, the system isn't about radar and vectors and moving maps. The system is designed to work so that when everything takes a giant dump, planes can maintain separation without radar, using altitude and distance for separation cushions.
 
Re: Going for an instrument rating: random questions

Doggtyred said:
One other resource I would recommend is go to the Avweb Archives and read Don Brown's columns. All of em.
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What's his series called? I'm looking for his articles now.
 
Loved that column ... think I've read most every one (of those available online).

Is there anything else that's similar? (I haven't done any regular aviation reading in a loooong time.)
 
azure said:
Your chances of actually being asked to hold in a real life situation are next to zero -- my current CFII says he can recall only ONE (1) time in his entire flying career (decades) that he was given a hold by ATC.
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I heard the same thing as a student. Then ATC had me do a hold a few months after I got my IR. Then again a few months later. Both times at a GA airport.

Once it happened when I wanted to do a VOR approach under the hood, but another IFR plane was inbound to the same airport. To keep us separated, ATC had me hold at the VOR for a long time. After about four times around the hold I got tired of it and cancelled IFR, just so that I could get out of there.

So this "zero chance" story turned out to be a myth for me.
 
NoHeat said:
I heard the same thing as a student. Then ATC had me do a hold a few months after I got my IR. Then again a few months later. Both times at a GA airport.

Once it happened when I wanted to do a VOR approach under the hood, but another IFR plane was inbound to the same airport. To keep us separated, ATC had me hold at the VOR for a long time. After about four times around the hold I got tired of it and cancelled IFR, just so that I could get out of there.

So this "zero chance" story turned out to be a myth for me.
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The DPE I did my Private and Instrument rides with said, "Anyone who says that getting a hold never happens in GA has never tried to go up north on a summer weekend."

Places like KEGV have a TON of planes on the ramp on summer weekends - Gulfstreams all the way down to singles. These are uncontrolled fields that get at least 95% of their annual traffic on summer weekends, and it's one at a time going in/out IFR.
 
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