Going back to steam

[flyersfan31]

I shot my first approach on steam instruments (in a Seminole) after almost a year on the G1000 last week. Boy was I surprised. Even little things, like "set the course on your HSI" came as a shock. There was so much more button pressing and synchronizing and manual stuff I was amazed. How could an HSI and 2 G430s require so much work?!!!!!

I think the first transition back to steam has to be the hardest. I'm at least aware of some of the red flags now. Still, a cautionary tale for me. As an owner, I don't see myself switching a lot, but it does bear extra preparation.

 

[tonycondon]

interesting perspective, and not the typical one at the moment. As more students come out of the schools with glass only experience this issue will come up more and more.

 

[TMetzinger]

Talking to instructors around here they indicate it takes more time to transition someone from the G1000 to round dials and a 430 than it does to do it the other way. This makes sense to me as basic attitude flying seems much easier with the G1000 - first, you've got that terrific horizon, and then if you're in steady state everything is flat across that horizon - having the altitude and VSI on "coaxial" (for want of a better word) tapes centered on the horizon means you'll spot any deviation quickly.

 

[KennyFlys]

This is my exact reason why instruments should be learned on needles at least through approaches before transitioning to glass.

 

[tonycondon]

actually you should start out with needle/ball/airspeed and tracking A-N ranges, then you can move up to the fancy ADF approaches if you are good enough. then we'll throw some fancy gyro instruments in there, but that'll be a tough one to master. maybe after more training you can track a VOR. then after a few years of that we can start GPS and finally a glass cockpit. dont just teach, make them learn with history!

 

[TMetzinger]

This is my exact reason why instruments should be learned on needles at least through approaches before transitioning to glass.

I disagree - if a person is going to fly glass, why make them learn steam? No insurance company or operator is gonna let a pilot get into a new-to-them airplane without a checkout, and no CFI giving the checkout should sign off the student as proficient until they ARE.

 

[KennyFlys]

I disagree - if a person is going to fly glass, why make them learn steam? No insurance company or operator is gonna let a pilot get into a new-to-them airplane without a checkout, and no CFI giving the checkout should sign off the student as proficient until they ARE.

I understand what you're saying but I still think there is great benefit from starting on analog gauges. I had attempted to go back in and edit my earlier post but gave up on it letting me back in.

The line I was going to add is:

"Lest he become addicted to the 'magenta' line without clearly understanding what is happening behind the scenes."

I sincerely believe learning to fly accurately on needles will make one a better pilot than one learning to follow the magenta line and the pretty colors in the glideslope indicator on the PFD.

We'll never know for certain but reading some NTSB reports leads me to believe fixation on the magenta line has killed a few of us.

 

[foka4]

actually you should start out with needle/ball/airspeed and tracking A-N ranges, then you can move up to the fancy ADF approaches if you are good enough. then we'll throw some fancy gyro instruments in there, but that'll be a tough one to master. maybe after more training you can track a VOR. then after a few years of that we can start GPS and finally a glass cockpit. dont just teach, make them learn with history!

And to think I've been trying to get this guy to do my instrument training! He'll be able to pay off all his college loans with one student!

 

[tonycondon]

And to think I've been trying to get this guy to do my instrument training! He'll be able to pay off all his college loans with one student!

yea and think how GOOD you'll be!

 

[stingray]

I sincerely believe learning to fly accurately on needles will make one a better pilot than one learning to follow the magenta line and the pretty colors in the glideslope indicator on the PFD.

We'll never know for certain but reading some NTSB reports leads me to believe fixation on the magenta line has killed a few of us.

Why do you think that flying behind glass is just following the magenta line? That is but just one page. I have flown with a GPS most of my flying and I never fly the magenta line, I do not like that page. I get more data out of the other pages. Use the CDI page. or the HSI page on others.

Dan

 

[KennyFlys]

Why do you think that flying behind glass is just following the magenta line? That is but just one page. I have flown with a GPS most of my flying and I never fly the magenta line, I do not like that page. I get more data out of the other pages. Use the CDI page. or the HSI page on others.

Dan

That is not what was intended to happen but it IS what does happen with a great many pilots who have become GPS dependent. The only thing that makes it worse is the autopilot is usually flying the airplane; often right into an approach. Throw in some poor power management during either phase of flight and the rest is history.

I prefer the HSI as well. I can show the GPS "needle" along with both VOR "needles" if both are tuned (whatever is available IS tuned in).

 

[AdamZ]

So Andrew you getting your multi at MCA now?

 

[flyersfan31]

So Andrew you getting your multi at MCA now?

Comm/Multi, yup. I'll do the Comm/Single add-on in my plane. Flying multi is fun, but the view outside ain't so great.

As far as glass/steam:
I trained on steam gauges -- I even had an ADF in my Sundowner so I shot a bunch of NDB approaches. No A/N ranges, though. I figured going back to steam would be a piece of cake. Not so much.

 

[stingray]

I understand what you're saying but I still think there is great benefit from starting on analog gauges. I had attempted to go back in and edit my earlier post but gave up on it letting me back in.

The line I was going to add is:

"Lest he become addicted to the 'magenta' line without clearly understanding what is happening behind the scenes."

I sincerely believe learning to fly accurately on needles will make one a better pilot than one learning to follow the magenta line and the pretty colors in the glideslope indicator on the PFD.

We'll never know for certain but reading some NTSB reports leads me to believe fixation on the magenta line has killed a few of us.

I started on steam as you call them but then bought a Six that had a Slaved HSI. It took me time to get used to it becuase I did not understand it. (Century) I did not see the little meter up in the right corner. So I did not know it was slaved. After I got used to it I sold it and bought a Viking. NO slaved HSI I was lost, The DG was never set right. I had trouble looking for the CDI. These are all considered Steam. A glass cockpit is nothing more than a Better HSI and closer analog gauges. Going from Glass to a Good AI over a Good Slaved HSI should not be that big of a problem. Going from Glass to a regular sixpack without a slaved HSI is another story.

I don't know why everyone always relates the magenta line to the GPS. The magenta line is related to the route planner. Turn off the route planner! The GPS is nothing more than a better VOR. If you want to train pilots to use the VOR just don't use the planner. If you want them to fly it by hand turn off the autopilot. Realize also though that if they are going to fly with the auto pilot they need to be comfortable with it also.

Training on steam is more about training on a non slaved DG and a CDI vs a Slaved HSI coupled to a GPS, VOR/LOC/ILS and autopilot.

Dan

 

[Lance F]

I was going to enter this discussion, but then thought better of it. Too much like high wing low wing.

 

[nosehair]

actually you should start out with needle/ball/airspeed and tracking A-N ranges, then you can move up to the fancy ADF approaches if you are good enough. then we'll throw some fancy gyro instruments in there, but that'll be a tough one to master. maybe after more training you can track a VOR. then after a few years of that we can start GPS and finally a glass cockpit. dont just teach, make them learn with history!

Your back-handed tounge-in-cheek comment does not jibe with your signature or your picture.

When we (instructors) talk about doing things the hard way, it is not because "that's the way we have always done it", though Lord knows, there IS plenty of that to go around, but what a good instructor means when we want to do it the hard way is to learn how things work without the fancy toys so that you can survive without these safety enhancers - when you have to.

Young People today come out of High School without the mental ability to do arithmetic. Cashiers cannot make change - I mean simple change - if the "computer" doesn't tell them how much.

Come to think of it - based on your signature and picture - you are probably not aware that there are pilots who are of the exact midframe as the incompetent cashiers who can't - or won't learn to do math.

There are. That's the ones who we are concerned about with all the automation.

There's more to learning math than just learning math - your brain learns to solve problems. It is an exercise in thinking.

There is more to learning ADF than just the technical ADF. Your Brain learns to solve problems - you practice thinking about where you are - your position in space and situational awareness that you have to imagine in your brain and not just look on a screen.

There is a big difference in reading and watching tv.

Good pilots - like yourself - will take all the safety enhancing features of the new toys and still retain the manual skills, but there are "new schoolers" who only want to do it the easy way and really do not know that they need to know more than how to operate "George".

And your comment - whether real or sarcastic - perpetuates the mass movement towards unbridaled gadetry, and the loss of the old technology that got us to be the safest flying country in the world.

 

[TMetzinger]

And your comment - whether real or sarcastic - perpetuates the mass movement towards unbridaled gadetry, and the loss of the old technology that got us to be the safest flying country in the world.

While I don't disagree that it's important to have a grasp of the fundamentals, you must also realize the fundamentals are changing. Eventually the beacons we use the ADF for will be gone, as will the VORs. When RNAV (driven by GPS or DME/DME or IRU or whatever) is all there is, you will always be thinking in terms of your relation to an imaginary point in space, at least while IMC, and there will likely be nothing for you to tune and identify. You may not even be able to see the raw data and why would you need to, if you can have fully redundant computation and display of refined data?

Just trying to point out that the things we need to teach future aviators to thing about, navigation-wise, will be changing. About the only constant is gonna be "don't hit anything".

Oh, and since you were complaining about math skills, I'll complain about spelling - it's "unbridled", not "unbridaled" - the latter makes me think of someone left at the altar and stripped of her veil and train. This comment should be interpreted as a nudge-wink and not any sort of insult.

 

[somorris]

Most of the new airplanes I have seen advertised (can't afford one) have backup steam gages. If you are in one of those and get the big red X, then what if you cannot fly steam gages? Seems to me these days we need to know both.

 

[heliocourier]

I started with traditional and learned some Glass, I prefer the traditional for now...

 

[nddons]

This is my exact reason why instruments should be learned on needles at least through approaches before transitioning to glass.

Thanks a lot, Ken! I've spent most of this past year considering whether or not I should get checked out in the G-1000 172 and do my instrument training in it, and finally concluded that I should. Now I'm back to indecision again!

(My motivations were traffic awareness and the fact that all new aircraft are now glass - not that I'm ready to buy yet.)

 

[heliocourier]

Do the DVD tutorial on G1000 from your local DVD pilot shop and learn it there and then do the practical application in your 172. I think this works best IMHO

Cheers and good luck

 

[TMetzinger]

Most of the new airplanes I have seen advertised (can't afford one) have backup steam gages. If you are in one of those and get the big red X, then what if you cannot fly steam gages? Seems to me these days we need to know both.

And if you learn to fly in a glass panel you will learn to fly on the backup gauges.

The issues people have between glass and steam don't seem to relate to basic attitude control - as a horizon is still a horizon. The problems relate more to positional awareness if they have to go back to raw data.

 

[heliocourier]

And if you learn to fly in a glass panel you will learn to fly on the backup gauges.

The issues people have between glass and steam don't seem to relate to basic attitude control - as a horizon is still a horizon. The problems relate more to positional awareness if they have to go back to raw data.

It's called situational awareness and scanning technique, which should be developed early on in the flight training process, yes the horizon is still just that. I was taught from the beginning to always know what the airplane is doing without reference to the panel

 

[TMetzinger]

If you can know what the airplane is doing without reference to the panel in IMC, would you please make me your heir?

Seriously, please rethink what you just said, as it's perfectly valid for visual flight, and perfectly deadly for instrument flight.

 

[Baron 55]

The planes in which I've flown that had glass all had a set of back-up gyro/vacuum/or elec. instruments, the "steam stuff". If bad things happen, and a pilot loses the glass, in IMC, he or she better be real sharp on the steam gauges. Real sharp. In all the planes I've been in, the backups are scattered around, not in a T set-up. Many or most or all of them are stuck over on the rights side of the panel, sometimes WAY right. They are perfectly usable, but the pilot in the left seat is cranking his head right and trying to use a scan. I don't mean it is some incredible tough thing, but it can be a real nerve–wracking additional hassle in the case of using paper charts [perhaps suddenly] and keeping the plane upright in turbulence or approaching a decision height and all the other things one is doing. Someone who learned the basics on steam, and became proficient on them, is going to be ahead of the game, I believe. Also, many of the pilots with whom I fly as a CFI for currency, practice, etc., and who have glass or Garmin GPS or whatever can have a tendency to stare at one screen and become focused on it, that really bothers me as it can go on for some time. Ditto them trying to punch buttons, twist knobs, say, "OOPS," and have to twist back, etc. I've seen this go on during final appch.

 

[heliocourier]

If you can know what the airplane is doing without reference to the panel in IMC, would you please make me your heir?

Seriously, please rethink what you just said, as it's perfectly valid for visual flight, and perfectly deadly for instrument flight.

I was referring to Visual flight, sorry for not making clarification with this and as regards to developing flight habits not related to IMC until later on....

 

[KennyFlys]

Thanks a lot, Ken! I've spent most of this past year considering whether or not I should get checked out in the G-1000 172 and do my instrument training in it, and finally concluded that I should. Now I'm back to indecision again!

(My motivations were traffic awareness and the fact that all new aircraft are now glass - not that I'm ready to buy yet.)

I'm glad to be of service!

Actually, since you will be under the hood your CFI will be your eyes through all training except when in actual during which everyone should be under the watchful eye of ATC. That's the idea, anyway. Keep in mind, even when filed under IFR, if it's VMC you're subject to visual traffic separation which becomes you're instructor's job while you're under the hood.

The other benefit for doing roughly the first two-thirds of instrument training on needles will save some money, usually around $40 per hour. That's assuming an older, 172M-P Skyhawk versus a 2005 or newer Nav III 172S Skyhawk; less savings with a 172S.

Transition to the Nav III won't be that difficult. Whatever you do, find another source than the Garmin G-1000 training package put out by King. It's WAY overpriced for what you get. They were around $225. I've got one to get rid of.

 

[nosehair]

Just trying to point out that the things we need to teach future aviators to thing about, navigation-wise, will be changing.

Absolutely! Thanks for your gentle nudge. I am not trying to play down learning new ways and systems - that was one of the reasons why I chose to live this life; there will never be a point where I feel I know it all - or even close. There will always be changing technology to learn.

I am just trying to point out that learning the surface material, or which buttons to push to get the desired screen/info, is not really enough - and it is very easy to become "enslaved" (addicted) to the very good, very safe technology that is presented to us today.

And I know that the ADF will eventually disappear, as well as the vor.
But not for many more years. As we gain experience in the glass panels and map screens, we will also have to develop new techniques to maintain situational awareness and nav ability by some kind of raw data.

 

[stingray]

And if you learn to fly in a glass panel you will learn to fly on the backup gauges.

The issues people have between glass and steam don't seem to relate to basic attitude control - as a horizon is still a horizon. The problems relate more to positional awareness if they have to go back to raw data.

That's right, the difference is having to fly on just a VOR or ADF. with or without a HSI. To pass your checkride you will have to do a VOR type approach. It is not going to be any different doing it in a glass cockpit or a steam. The problem is more than likely that becasue the equipment GPS is there (Glass) that's what gets used the most. Letting the VOR get left behind with not much use. Then when you go back to not having a big GPS to look at your lost. A better solution would be to use the VOR only in the Glass cockpit every so often to stay sharp VMC if you can.

Dan

 

[tonycondon]

When we (instructors) talk about doing things the hard way, it is not because "that's the way we have always done it", though Lord knows, there IS plenty of that to go around, but what a good instructor means when we want to do it the hard way is to learn how things work without the fancy toys so that you can survive without these safety enhancers - when you have to.

This Instructor couldnt agree more.

Come to think of it - based on your signature and picture - you are probably not aware that there are pilots who are of the exact midframe as the incompetent cashiers who can't - or won't learn to do math.

There are. That's the ones who we are concerned about with all the automation.

There's more to learning math than just learning math - your brain learns to solve problems. It is an exercise in thinking.

There is more to learning ADF than just the technical ADF. Your Brain learns to solve problems - you practice thinking about where you are - your position in space and situational awareness that you have to imagine in your brain and not just look on a screen.

There is a big difference in reading and watching tv.

Im well aware of the masses who cant do mental (or any other kind) of math. I take great enjoyment in watching the E6B spin when im on dual cross countries (ask any of my students), but i take even greater enjoyment in the fact that most of the time I have already figured out at least a decent approximation, if not the answer in my head. Its almost always a fairly simple ratio and if you can multiply its just not that hard.

Good pilots - like yourself - will take all the safety enhancing features of the new toys and still retain the manual skills, but there are "new schoolers" who only want to do it the easy way and really do not know that they need to know more than how to operate "George".

And your comment - whether real or sarcastic - perpetuates the mass movement towards unbridaled gadetry, and the loss of the old technology that got us to be the safest flying country in the world.

I agree that the manual and problem solving skills have to be maintained in a Direct To environment. And the comment was riddled with sarcasm (we need a smilie for that), but not without a point. When I said "Don't just teach, make them learn with history" I meant Teach and Learn. Actual teaching and learning where the student had more than just the technical skills but developed the problems solving skills as well.

 

[nddons]

I'm glad to be of service!

Actually, since you will be under the hood your CFI will be your eyes through all training except when in actual during which everyone should be under the watchful eye of ATC. That's the idea, anyway. Keep in mind, even when filed under IFR, if it's VMC you're subject to visual traffic separation which becomes you're instructor's job while you're under the hood.

The other benefit for doing roughly the first two-thirds of instrument training on needles will save some money, usually around $40 per hour. That's assuming an older, 172M-P Skyhawk versus a 2005 or newer Nav III 172S Skyhawk; less savings with a 172S.

Transition to the Nav III won't be that difficult. Whatever you do, find another source than the Garmin G-1000 training package put out by King. It's WAY overpriced for what you get. They were around $225. I've got one to get rid of.

Good points. My cost differential is $25/hr between a 2001 172SP and a 2006 G-1000 172SP.

I have Max Trescott's CD course for $99, and that got me a free hour of instruction in the G-1000. (As if anything in flying is ever free )