GNS530 upgrade to WAAS

AdamZ

AdamZ

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Adam Zucker
Anyone know if Garmin is still upgrading 530s to WAAS? I seem to recall last year or two they were going to upgrade the 430 but stop upgrading the 530? I know the price has jumped to like 3300 or $3400 from the orginal $1500 upgrade price.
 
I believe you can still get a 530 updated and $3,000.00 was the last price I heard, plus installation. You may or may not have the proper antenna cables, if not they have to be replaced, I think everything else is the same. You might be able to sell your unit and buy a used WAAS unit cheaper. :dunno:

AdamZ said:
Anyone know if Garmin is still upgrading 530s to WAAS? I seem to recall last year or two they were going to upgrade the 430 but stop upgrading the 530? I know the price has jumped to like 3300 or $3400 from the orginal $1500 upgrade price.
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Had my 530 upgraded to WAAS this February. I believe 3K was the amount garmin took.
 
According to what a technician told me recently, even getting an old unit upgraded to WAAS won't get you the ability to do APV approaches since the unit physically lacks the vertical nav output. Thus, no ability to show a glide path on an external indicator. Is this true, N35?
 
eman1200 said:
jeez, did they at least kiss you before they @#$%ed you?
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Oh, it's worse than that. If you just want to replace a board or the display in a non-WAAS unit, they'll refuse unless you also do the WAAS upgrade. That turns a simple $700 repair into a mandatory $3700 repair.
 
Figure, round numbers, 3k to Garmin, 1500 to 2500 to the avionics shop. If antenna cable requires replacement (likely), it adds to cost.

Also, where is radio stack in relation to panel center? In Bonanzas, it is far enough to the right that an additional annunciator had to be added, in front of Mr. Pilot.
 
SCCutler said:
Figure, round numbers, 3k to Garmin, 1500 to 2500 to the avionics shop. If antenna cable requires replacement (likely), it adds to cost.

Also, where is radio stack in relation to panel center? In Bonanzas, it is far enough to the right that an additional annunciator had to be added, in front of Mr. Pilot.
Click to expand...

By the time all the checks cleared the bank, I was in it $7,500. Needed new Coax and annunciator (I had an ancient 530 installed before the annunciator requirement in a Bo). Had to have some filters installed to block interference from the KX155 and move some radios around.

you also have to figure that 1-2 day shipping with $9,000 worth of insurance isn't cheap either... crap adds up.
 
bartmc said:
By the time all the checks cleared the bank, I was in it $7,500. Needed new Coax and annunciator (I had an ancient 530 installed before the annunciator requirement in a Bo). Had to have some filters installed to block interference from the KX155 and move some radios around.

you also have to figure that 1-2 day shipping with $9,000 worth of insurance isn't cheap either... crap adds up.
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Kinda high, but I spent $4600 back when the Garmin slice was only $1500. So certainly believable.

Most planes don't need the separate annunciator, though, and that is real money, both part and labor.
 
When I did mine it was a 430 and a 530, new cables, Garmin charged $1500 each and I think my total bill was around $6K for a 414A. It was at Signature, so I figured I probably paid an extra $3-500.00 but it was cheaper than moving the airplane back and forth to a different shop. :dunno:

SCCutler said:
Kinda high, but I spent $4600 back when the Garmin slice was only $1500. So certainly believable.

Most planes don't need the separate annunciator, though, and that is real money, both part and labor.
Click to expand...
 
write-stuff said:
According to what a technician told me recently, even getting an old unit upgraded to WAAS won't get you the ability to do APV approaches since the unit physically lacks the vertical nav output. Thus, no ability to show a glide path on an external indicator. Is this true, N35?
Click to expand...

I'm scratching my head at this. Both the 430 and 530 have vertical output in the box to accommodate an ILS. The upgrade to either replaces the main board so that the vert. output will come off either the ILS or GPS sections of the unit, depending on what's selected.

So, yes, you will get the glideslope on a nav indicator.
 
I just talked with an avionics shop last week about this. They told me $3500 for the upgrade to WAAS and Garmin will fix everything that is wrong in that dollar figure as well. So he told me to get a broken 430 and upgrade it and it will come back all fixed and WAAS for $3500.
 
wsuffa said:
I'm scratching my head at this. Both the 430 and 530 have vertical output in the box to accommodate an ILS. The upgrade to either replaces the main board so that the vert. output will come off either the ILS or GPS sections of the unit, depending on what's selected.

So, yes, you will get the glideslope on a nav indicator.
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I was upgrading a GPS 400 which has no glideslope so that is likely the difference. I'd get WAAS accuracy, but no WAAS approaches. I declined.
 
Just remember that you may have to replace the coax, the indicator (depending on what you have) and possibly add an annunciator. Those add to the cost, though the avionics shop I used did a great job at finding a used annunciator!
 
write-stuff said:
Oh, it's worse than that. If you just want to replace a board or the display in a non-WAAS unit, they'll refuse unless you also do the WAAS upgrade. That turns a simple $700 repair into a mandatory $3700 repair.
Click to expand...

that's what happened to me. needed a circuit board replaced, so I did the WAAS upgrade. glad I got it, but still hate being "forced" into it.
 
write-stuff said:
According to what a technician told me recently, even getting an old unit upgraded to WAAS won't get you the ability to do APV approaches since the unit physically lacks the vertical nav output. Thus, no ability to show a glide path on an external indicator. Is this true, N35?
Click to expand...

Either your avionics tech did not know what he was talking about or you misinterpreted what he said.
 
rbridges said:
that's what happened to me. needed a circuit board replaced, so I did the WAAS upgrade. glad I got it, but still hate being "forced" into it.
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The only units that Garmin requires the WAAS upgrade to get them fixed are the early 28 volt only versions of the GNS430. This is due to the fact that the current version of the Com board is not FAA approved to be installed in the older GNS430 units. Most of the GNS430 units and all of the GNS530 units have 14/28 volt capability and these units can be repaired without upgrading to the WAAS version.
 
I was under the impression that an additional antenna (for the geostationary WAAS birds) was required as part of a WAAS conversion and maybe a new tray as well to add the extra connection.

Is that not correct or are the comments here about replacing antenna cables just a misunderstanding of what is being done?
 
WAAS is ground based. WAAS does require specific cabling and antenna.
 
ronnieh said:
WAAS is ground based.
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A lot of people, including the guys running the space segment, are going to be surprised to hear that. Perhaps you are thinking of ADS-B?
 
airdale said:
I was under the impression that an additional antenna (for the geostationary WAAS birds) was required as part of a WAAS conversion and maybe a new tray as well to add the extra connection.

Is that not correct or are the comments here about replacing antenna cables just a misunderstanding of what is being done?
Click to expand...

It is a misunderstanding.

There are no changes to the tray, but in many cases an annunciator needs to be wired to the GNS430W/530W and placed in the pilot's primary view. This really depends on whether or not the existing location of the GPS is close enough to the center of the panel. As an example, a 1984 or later A36 does not require the annunciator, whereas one that is of earlier vintage does, the difference being the location of the radio stack. You can measure the distance from the left edge of your GNS and the center of your AI/DG if it is in the standard T configuration. If the distance exceeds 12.1 inches, you will need to add the annunciator. Expect the annunciator to add $700 for the annunciator if you need one and up to 10 hours of labor.

The existing GPS antenna does not have the gain required to support the WAAS satellites and is replaced by one that comes included with the upgrade from Garmin. Depending on how long ago it has been since the GNS430/530 was installed, the old practice of using RG58 cable was prevalent. Avionics installations have migrated to using cable such as RG400 which is double shielded. The RG400 is specified for use with a WAAS installation. So if you have the older RG58 cable, the installer will have to replace it with RG400.
 
John Collins said:
It is a misunderstanding. -snip-
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Thanks, John. I knew that there was another antenna required. I guess that somewhere I got the idea that it was additional or dual-band for the WAAS satellites rather than a straight replacement.
 
WAAS is ground based. The two stationary satellites simply relay the information. I quote in part from Garmin:

"WAAS consists of multiple ground reference stations positioned across the U.S. that monitor GPS satellite data. Two master stations, located on either coast, collect data from the reference stations and create a GPS correction message. This correction accounts for GPS satellite orbit and clock drift plus signal delays caused by the atmosphere and ionosphere."

However as stated the WAAS units need to be able to communicate with the satellites that relay the info.
 
ronnieh said:
WAAS is ground based. The two stationary satellites simply relay the information. I quote in part from Garmin:

"WAAS consists of multiple ground reference stations positioned across the U.S. that monitor GPS satellite data. Two master stations, located on either coast, collect data from the reference stations and create a GPS correction message. This correction accounts for GPS satellite orbit and clock drift plus signal delays caused by the atmosphere and ionosphere."

However as stated the WAAS units need to be able to communicate with the satellites that relay the info.
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Ronnie, what you state is literally true but of no practical value to a pilot. WAAS is termed an SBAS (Space Based Augmentation System) and a WAAS receiver obtains all of its information, both GPS satellite position data from the GPS constellation and WAAS correction and integrity data from the WAAS geostationary satellites thru the same top mounted GPS antenna. Since all the receivers input come from Space including the augmentation, it is a space based system.

In contrast, GBAS (Ground Based Augmentation system) uses local ground sensors and transmits the correction and integrity data from a ground based transmitter. It requires the aircraft to have both a top and bottom antenna, with the bottom antenna receiving the Augmentation information. The GBAS permits much greater accuracy and can support Category II and III operations. The only GBAS installations I am aware of are located in Newark and Houston.

The information you quoted is now dated. A better description of the ground components can be found at http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/WAAS_Ground_Segment :

The WAAS Ground segment is composed of:

38 widely-spaced Wide-area Reference Stations (WRS), located in North America (Mexico, Canada and USA) and Hawaii: the WRS stations collect GPS data.

3 WAAS Master Station (WMS): the WRS collected data are forwarded to the WAAS Master Station (WMS) via a terrestrial communications network. At the WMS, the WAAS augmentation messages are generated.

6 Ground Uplink Stations (GUS): they are in charge of the transmission of the WAAS messages generated by WMS stations to the navigation payloads on Geostationary communications satellites for rebroadcast to the users.

2 Operational Control Centers (OCC), used to monitor the system performance and to carry out the necessary corrective and periodic maintenance operations.
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There are also three geostationary satellites used to forward the WAAS data to aircraft, two of which also provide a precision GPS timing and ranging signal and are used by the WAAS receiver as additional GPS satellites. The third WAAS geostationary satellite also provides a GPS signal, but because of the figure 8 orbit it flies in, does not provide a signal suitable to be used for the LP/LPV service.
 
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WAAS is no more ground-based than GPS is. Both have a ground segment and a space segment and rely on both for operation.
 
My only point was that the WAAS information is derived by ground based equipment and relayed via satellite. In my OP I stated that a specific antenna was required and updated coax if not already installed. The satellite as I understand it is just a relay. Maybe I am wrong. One of the many times I needed to stay out of a conversation that I had no real interest in. My bad.

Ronnie
 
ronnieh said:
My only point was that the WAAS information is derived by ground based equipment and relayed via satellite. In my OP I stated that a specific antenna was required and updated coax if not already installed. The satellite as I understand it is just a relay. Maybe I am wrong. One of the many times I needed to stay out of a conversation that I had no real interest in. My bad.

Ronnie
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Sheesh! Your original post was a single sentence: "WAAS is ground based." It was only later that you edited to add the sentence about the antenna. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, as I was about the second antenna, but becomes amusing when someone can't simply admit it and instead starts rationalizing.
 
Excellent info John, thanks. One question about WAAS I have...

Back in the days before WAAS, we had Satloc systems for agriculture. These used GPS and as it was explained to me, a subscription based, satellite transmitted, augmentation system that got us down to sub meter accuracy.

Is that system related to what we now know as WAAS?
 
There's a relationship, but not a direct one. WAAS is mostly about integrity monitoring and rapid alerting, and secondarily about increased accuracy via ionospheric and clock corrections. The subscription-based agricultural systems have a greater density of local reference stations for differential corrections and thus typically deliver better accuracy than WAAS within the areas of coverage. They don't have the same low-latency integrity monitoring, not the same system-level redundancy and reliability guarantees, because those things are expensive and not required for farming.
 
Airdale, you win. The WAAS information is not calculated nor does it originate with ground based equipment. Nor is the information that does not originate with ground equipment sent to a satellite for relaying to GPS units. All the WAAS information originates in the satellites. Is that better? Like I said, my bad. My nose should have not been in this conversation.
 
John Collins said:
The only units that Garmin requires the WAAS upgrade to get them fixed are the early 28 volt only versions of the GNS430. This is due to the fact that the current version of the Com board is not FAA approved to be installed in the older GNS430 units. Most of the GNS430 units and all of the GNS530 units have 14/28 volt capability and these units can be repaired without upgrading to the WAAS version.
Click to expand...

you may be right. it may have been a minimum bench fee that made me decide to go ahead with the WAAS.
 
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