GM: Chinese made Buicks coming to the US for sale

[Jimmy cooper]

China needs an Edward Deming. So far, China has been satisfied to lower their pricing to the point that the quality of the merchandise is acceptable. The marketing of products from Japan turned around because they wanted to produce US quality materials. I don't see that the Chinese are following that model so far, but it could change. Given that China already has such a large market share in the US with what they are producing now, there's little incentive for them to up their quality standards.

Example from yesterday. I went to Leslie's pool supply because I wanted a good quality pool brush. They have 6 different offerings in the store, but all are from China. I walked away when I noticed that all of them use the same bristle and they all come off the frame after a year or less. It's a classic case of market saturation, and controlled obsolescence.

Deming was popular in Japan long before america listened to him. It shows in Japanese cars and has for years. America was all for planned obsolescence, short term profit. Still is. Detroit was their own worst enemy. Ross Perot even bought in with big money and tried to help GM change their culture. He gave up, they bought him out and he went home with 700 million.

 

[Dav8or]

The Tianjin explosion shut down three of Toyotas assembly plants.

The japanese have a 20% market share.

Shut down plants in China, or elsewhere in the world? There is no doubt and no argument that Toyota uses components made in China just like everybody else.

 

[Dav8or]

Now, if they could stop taking a mediocre vehicle and throwing multiple brands on the grill - think GMC vs Silverado - Tahoe vs Yukon - that would be nice.

Nice for who? The car company, the consumer, or the car geek? Car companies love it because they can actually sell more units. Average consumers love it, because it gives them choices in dealerships, styling, option packages and colors. Car geeks hate it because "they know better".

 

[Dav8or]

I think it had to do with balancing out the dealer networks. Chevy dealers could show you a full line of passenger cars, SUVs and trucks. But the Buick store down the street only had cars to sell, unless they were also a GMC dealer.

This is true for GM. For some weird reason, in America 50% of vehicle sales are light trucks. So if you're just a car dealership, you're losing out on a big piece of the market. Hell, the truck market is so important here, that's why Mercedes forcibly took over Chrysler, just to get in on that action. That's why Toyota, Nissan and to a smaller extent, Honda were forced to make products they pretty much only sell here in North America and nowhere else in the world.

 

[hindsight2020]

Deming was popular in Japan long before america listened to him. It shows in Japanese cars and has for years. America was all for planned obsolescence, short term profit. Still is. Detroit was their own worst enemy. Ross Perot even bought in with big money and tried to help GM change their culture. He gave up, they bought him out and he went home with 700 million.

Could you provide examples that illustrate contemporary American cars are designed with planned obsolescence in mind whereas Japanese cars are not? Serious question. I'm about to jump ship and begrudgingly replace a 16 year old Jeep daily driver with a Mazda cuv (choice that's practically arbitrary at this point to be honest), and all vehicles of 2016 reek of planned obsolescence to me. Electronics, not powertrain components or bodywork, is what is making me replace my vehicle on the cost-economics front. Electronics are the core component of all modern cars, thence all cars manufactured today are planned obsolete IMO. I don't think there's a single manufacturer out there that serves the needs of a consumer who behaves like me (i.e. purchases a vehicle new with the intention of driving it 15 years). But I'm all ears.

 

[Everskyward]

Cars (and airplanes) are becoming more like computers. So I am predicting that their weakness will be in the electronics. You will be replacing PC boards before mechanical components, and, like computers, they will become obsolete faster.

 

[docmirror]

Surely electronic assemblies are the bane of modern cars. All modern cars, there's no exceptions. I have an older Porsche and the Bosch connectors are falling apart under the hood. I've had 7YO VWs with the cable and wires disintegrating in summer. It's outragious that electronic suppliers get away with such shoddy materials.

There's really no excuse for it either. Powertrain components will last 300k miles, and 20 years or so. I know for a fact that there are quality materials that can be used because I have a 1950 plane with electrical wires and connectors in it that are still robust! Every mfg, and every supplier is at fault. They can save 0.01 penny per plastic part by using lower grade polyvinyl where polysilicate or a combo polyethelene with hardener would last much longer. It makes me so mad, I can't buy a quality connector anywhere except maybe a comm aviation supplier and the price for those are stratospheric.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

Could you provide examples that illustrate contemporary American cars are designed with planned obsolescence in mind whereas Japanese cars are not? Serious question. I'm about to jump ship and begrudgingly replace a 16 year old Jeep daily driver with a Mazda cuv (choice that's practically arbitrary at this point to be honest), and all vehicles of 2016 reek of planned obsolescence to me. Electronics, not powertrain components or bodywork, is what is making me replace my vehicle on the cost-economics front. Electronics are the core component of all modern cars, thence all cars manufactured today are planned obsolete IMO. I don't think there's a single manufacturer out there that serves the needs of a consumer who behaves like me (i.e. purchases a vehicle new with the intention of driving it 15 years). But I'm all ears.

Planned obsolete? Well I guess so....the EPA wants it this way.

Hence all the electronic emission related components.

Not sure car manufacturers have much say....they are just trying to keep up with the regulations. Some manufacturers do better than others with new technologies.

That is the new reality...well it's really the old reality....been going on for quite sometime now.

example....lets regulate diesels....that soot (which is carbon and plants kinda like) is horrible for the environment....let's make manufacturers make an overly complicated system to deal with a non issue!!!
Ever see a volcano? They produce a lot. And everywhere I've seen a volcano....in the aftermath....plants kinda like it.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

Surely electronic assemblies are the bane of modern cars. All modern cars, there's no exceptions. I have an older Porsche and the Bosch connectors are falling apart under the hood. I've had 7YO VWs with the cable and wires disintegrating in summer. It's outragious that electronic suppliers get away with such shoddy materials.

There's really no excuse for it either. Powertrain components will last 300k miles, and 20 years or so. I know for a fact that there are quality materials that can be used because I have a 1950 plane with electrical wires and connectors in it that are still robust! Every mfg, and every supplier is at fault. They can save 0.01 penny per plastic part by using lower grade polyvinyl where polysilicate or a combo polyethelene with hardener would last much longer. It makes me so mad, I can't buy a quality connector anywhere except maybe a comm aviation supplier and the price for those are stratospheric.

There is an excuse for it.....it's called COST.

They could build components to last forever....but if you could afford it or be willing to pay for it...you would be one of the few. That's not really a good business model.

That's the reality...

 

[hindsight2020]

Surely electronic assemblies are the bane of modern cars. All modern cars, there's no exceptions. I have an older Porsche and the Bosch connectors are falling apart under the hood. I've had 7YO VWs with the cable and wires disintegrating in summer. It's outragious that electronic suppliers get away with such shoddy materials.

There's really no excuse for it either. Powertrain components will last 300k miles, and 20 years or so. I know for a fact that there are quality materials that can be used because I have a 1950 plane with electrical wires and connectors in it that are still robust! Every mfg, and every supplier is at fault. They can save 0.01 penny per plastic part by using lower grade polyvinyl where polysilicate or a combo polyethelene with hardener would last much longer. It makes me so mad, I can't buy a quality connector anywhere except maybe a comm aviation supplier and the price for those are stratospheric.

That's exactly my observation of modern cars. What is more upsetting to me is, if I'm to accept a ground conveyance whose electronic harnesses and connectors are guaranteed to ruin the dispatchability of the vehicle to uneconomic-repair level by year 7, then why the eff would I ever commit to consume it to the tune of 20-40K per vehicle? Lunacy.

This is why paying the proletariat with credit is bad. They've grown so accustomed to paying too much for less and less everyday, they're insensitive to the scam because beer and circus (electronics in cars) distracts them from the fact they don't even have a mechanical linkage to the throttle anymore! If people couldn't replace these things with credit so often, they would demand the car last them 15 years. Bye bye electronics.

Another pet peeve of mine is the fact I can't replace my Jeep Cherokee with a like substitute. That is to say, a wagon circa 3k lbs with a NA engine (turbo 4 bangers? lol talk about preset 7 year time bomb) with more than 200 ft-lb of torque. Cannot be found anywhere. Sedans have more torque than the run of the mill CUV. A Dodge Journey, a 4500 lbs vehicle, mated to a 2.4 4 banger. Mate it to the proper category engine and hello $35K vehicle. Assembled in Mejico no less. No thanks.

 

[weilke]

Shut down plants in China, or elsewhere in the world? There is no doubt and no argument that Toyota uses components made in China just like everybody else.

They have one plant in the Tianjin harbor district and one 40km outside of the city.

 

[RogerT]

Yet another in a long line of reasons not to own a Buick, something I never aspire to do.

Me either. First off .. they won't even go the speed limit .. as evidenced by the many I've gotten behind around here. I am intrigued by the fact that most don't even seem to have a driver .. just two hands attached to the steering wheel.

RT

 

[RJM62]

Cars (and airplanes) are becoming more like computers. So I am predicting that their weakness will be in the electronics. You will be replacing PC boards before mechanical components, and, like computers, they will become obsolete faster.

Technology obsolescence in general isn't planned so much as accepted as the natural order of things. But I find it hard to understand your assertion that car electronics in particular increase the rate of obsolescence. I find quite the opposite to be the case,

I've never sold or scrapped a car because of a failed ECM, nor replaced an ECM / PCM, nor had any need to. In fact, in my entire lifetime, I've only replaced three components associated with any of my cars' computer systems: an 02 sensor, an EVAP vent solenoid, and a fuel tank pressure sensor.

On the other hand, I sold a 2001 Saturn SC1 last year because it needed a bunch of chassis and suspension work that I didn't feel like doing. I sold a 2000 Kia Sportage a few months before that for similar reasons. Both cars still ran well, however, and could be restored by people who had more time than I did for body, chassis, and suspension repairs.

Both of the cars' "computers," on the other hand, were fine. They had operated trouble-free for the cars' entire lifetimes and were still doing so when I sold the cars. How many desktop computers can boast similar records?

I remember and have owned cars from before the era of computerization that had carburetors, breaker points, coils, and so forth rather than today's computer-controlled systems. Those cars and components required far more maintenance, far more often than today's cars.

Spark plugs lasted about 10K miles back then, not 100K. They usually were changed as part of an annual "tune-up" that also included, at a bare minimum: cleaning, adjusting, or replacing the breaker points and condenser; cleaning, adjusting, or rebuilding the carburetor and choke; and adjusting the tach, dwell, and timing. Other frequently-needed maintenance included included adjusting the valves, replacing spark plug wires, and replacing the ignition coil.

Back then, warranties maxed out at 50,000 miles at the very most. 36,000 miles was more common, and some manufacturers' warranties were as short as 10,000 miles. The warranties excluded all of the above maintenance chores. They were considered routine and necessary maintenance and were the owners' responsibility. Odometers only went up to 99,999 miles because it was unusual for cars to make it past 75,000 or thereabouts, much less 100,000.

And let's not forget fuel economy. The average fuel economy of a passenger car in 1960 was 14.3 MPG, and in 1970 was 13.5 MPG. Fuel economy didn't top 20 MPG until 1990, by which time the hated electronics had become standard on almost all cars.

Yet a lot of people consider the days of carburetors, breaker points, fuel guzzling, and engines that died by 75,000 miles the "good old days" and hate today's "computerized" cars that require little maintenance, come with 100,000 mile warranties, and frequently top 200,000 miles without fanfare. It's kind of baffling really.

For my part, I'm not going to complain much about car electronics. Neither do I think technology contributes to a car's obsolescence considering the extraordinary increase in their average lifespans. Most cars used to be ready for the junkyard by 75K.

Rich

 

[Everskyward]

Technology obsolescence in general isn't planned so much as accepted as the natural order of things. But I find it hard to understand your assertion that car electronics in particular increase the rate of obsolescence. I find quite the opposite to be the case,

I've never sold or scrapped a car because of a failed ECM, nor replaced an ECM / PCM, nor had any need to. In fact, in my entire lifetime, I've only replaced three components associated with any of my cars' computer systems: an 02 sensor, an EVAP vent solenoid, and a fuel tank pressure sensor.

On the other hand, I sold a 2001 Saturn SC1 last year because it needed a bunch of chassis and suspension work that I didn't feel like doing. I sold a 2000 Kia Sportage a few months before that for similar reasons. Both cars still ran well, however, and could be restored by people who had more time than I did for body, chassis, and suspension repairs.

Both of the cars' "computers," on the other hand, were fine. They had operated trouble-free for the cars' entire lifetimes and were still doing so when I sold the cars. How many desktop computers can boast similar records?

I remember and have owned cars from before the era of computerization that had carburetors, breaker points, coils, and so forth rather than today's computer-controlled systems. Those cars and components required far more maintenance, far more often than today's cars.

Spark plugs lasted about 10K miles back then, not 100K. They usually were changed as part of an annual "tune-up" that also included, at a bare minimum: cleaning, adjusting, or replacing the breaker points and condenser; cleaning, adjusting, or rebuilding the carburetor and choke; and adjusting the tach, dwell, and timing. Other frequently-needed maintenance included included adjusting the valves, replacing spark plug wires, and replacing the ignition coil.

Back then, warranties maxed out at 50,000 miles at the very most. 36,000 miles was more common, and some manufacturers' warranties were as short as 10,000 miles. The warranties excluded all of the above maintenance chores. They were considered routine and necessary maintenance and were the owners' responsibility. Odometers only went up to 99,999 miles because it was unusual for cars to make it past 75,000 or thereabouts, much less 100,000.

And let's not forget fuel economy. The average fuel economy of a passenger car in 1960 was 14.3 MPG, and in 1970 was 13.5 MPG. Fuel economy didn't top 20 MPG until 1990, by which time the hated electronics had become standard on almost all cars.

Yet a lot of people consider the days of carburetors, breaker points, fuel guzzling, and engines that died by 75,000 miles the "good old days" and hate today's "computerized" cars that require little maintenance, come with 100,000 mile warranties, and frequently top 200,000 miles without fanfare. It's kind of baffling really.

For my part, I'm not going to complain much about car electronics. Neither do I think technology contributes to a car's obsolescence considering the extraordinary increase in their average lifespans. Most cars used to be ready for the junkyard by 75K.

Rich

I am going by my experience with a fairly new (2008) airplane. Before someone calls that "old" I'll say that these problems have be happening all its life. The majority of things which go wrong with it can be tied to some very expensive PC board or other electronic component such as a switch or solenoid. Mechanically it has been pretty sound.

You are talking about your cars from 2000 and 2001. They may have had computers but new cars have many more computerized components. It will be interesting to see how robust these systems are but I have my doubts.

 

[Dav8or]

I remember and have owned cars from before the era of computerization that had carburetors, breaker points, coils, and so forth rather than today's computer-controlled systems. Those cars and components required far more maintenance, far more often than today's cars.

Spark plugs lasted about 10K miles back then, not 100K. They usually were changed as part of an annual "tune-up" that also included, at a bare minimum: cleaning, adjusting, or replacing the breaker points and condenser; cleaning, adjusting, or rebuilding the carburetor and choke; and adjusting the tach, dwell, and timing. Other frequently-needed maintenance included included adjusting the valves, replacing spark plug wires, and replacing the ignition coil.

Back then, warranties maxed out at 50,000 miles at the very most. 36,000 miles was more common, and some manufacturers' warranties were as short as 10,000 miles. The warranties excluded all of the above maintenance chores. They were considered routine and necessary maintenance and were the owners' responsibility. Odometers only went up to 99,999 miles because it was unusual for cars to make it past 75,000 or thereabouts, much less 100,000.

And let's not forget fuel economy. The average fuel economy of a passenger car in 1960 was 14.3 MPG, and in 1970 was 13.5 MPG. Fuel economy didn't top 20 MPG until 1990, by which time the hated electronics had become standard on almost all cars.

Yet a lot of people consider the days of carburetors, breaker points, fuel guzzling, and engines that died by 75,000 miles the "good old days" and hate today's "computerized" cars that require little maintenance, come with 100,000 mile warranties, and frequently top 200,000 miles without fanfare. It's kind of baffling really.

For my part, I'm not going to complain much about car electronics. Neither do I think technology contributes to a car's obsolescence considering the extraordinary increase in their average lifespans. Most cars used to be ready for the junkyard by 75K.

Rich

Absolutely!! I don't know how anybody could complain about modern car reliability, durability, fit and finish, performance, or content. They completely blow the older cars away in every category except three. Styling and character, and cost. New cars today (with some exceptions) have become fantastic, expensive appliances with all the excitement of a new washing machine. Accordingly, they get replaced on about the same schedule as a washing machine.

 

[Number7]

Absolutely!! I don't know how anybody could complain about modern car reliability, durability, fit and finish, performance, or content. They completely blow the older cars away in every category except three. Styling and character, and cost. New cars today (with some exceptions) have become fantastic, expensive appliances with all the excitement of a new washing machine. Accordingly, they get replaced on about the same schedule as a washing machine.

You are right about one thing, people do not have love affairs with their cars like in years gone by. The more expensive they get, the more generic they look.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Absolutely!! I don't know how anybody could complain about modern car reliability, durability, fit and finish, performance, or content. They completely blow the older cars away in every category except three. Styling and character, and cost. New cars today (with some exceptions) have become fantastic, expensive appliances with all the excitement of a new washing machine. Accordingly, they get replaced on about the same schedule as a washing machine.

For sure.

I think about my dad's last car -- a giant, 1988 Mercury Grand Marquis, and compare it to my 2011 Lincoln MKs, and about the only thing that compares is that they both have a steering wheel and brake pedal.
.
Everything else -- power, comfort, handling, ergonomics, mileage, features -- there is simply no comparison.

When he died in 1993, his 5 year old, relatively low mileage Mercury was junk. We practically gave it away. Conversely, my 4 year old Lincoln isn't even broken in. I could easily drive it the rest of my life.

Every time I buy a car, I thank the Japanese for shocking Detroit into building good products.

 

[weilke]

I've never sold or scrapped a car because of a failed ECM, nor replaced an ECM / PCM, nor had any need to. In fact, in my entire lifetime, I've only replaced three components associated with any of my cars' computer systems: an 02 sensor, an EVAP vent solenoid, and a fuel tank pressure sensor.

Took a while to get there. In the 90s, if you met another Accord owner conversation would usually get to the number of failed ECUs either of you had replaced recently.

The bigger problem than the ECUs these days are dash electronics. If one of those multi-function displays goes TU, you not only use the navigation, you frequently lose the radio and the ability to control the AC. Same with the instrument cluster. In the old days, you knew that the little bulb that indicated whether the indicators were indicating would go out eventually, nowadays if the cluster fails it goes dark alltogether. If you drive a very common car, there may be a little garage shop that knows how to replace the $0.52 SMD component that is the culprit and sells re-furbished units at a thousand percent markup, if your car isn't as common, you are going to bleed.

But yes, mechanically cars are rock solid. Changed the spark-plugs on my Accord at 110k miles along with the timing belt. The electrodes were burned down to a little nub but it started and ran without a fault up to the 'tune-up'.

 

[docmirror]

Oh no question mechanical reliability has taken leaps and bounds in the past 30 years. I own a bunch of cars, of various ages, and I can see the improvements in the mechanical systems with each decade. But - there's NO WAY that any of the electronics systems have kept up. Just no way. Funny, early Saturns are known for head gasket issues. Not only that, but they have serious issues with the early elec ignition. Same with the GM HEI, same with the early Chrysler 5 pin ign ECU. Crap!

 

[pilot_dude]

I remember in the '70s "Goldstar" was the cheap knockoff brand in consumer electronics. In 1997 the company changed its name to "LG".

I still have the same 13", yes 13" Goldstar color TV from the early 80's. Keep it out in the barn now. Still has a great picture.

 

[pilot_dude]

Deming was popular in Japan long before america listened to him. It shows in Japanese cars and has for years. America was all for planned obsolescence, short term profit. Still is. Detroit was their own worst enemy. Ross Perot even bought in with big money and tried to help GM change their culture. He gave up, they bought him out and he went home with 700 million.

Dr. Deming was turned away by Detroit prior to venturing to Japan. One of the biggest mistakes made to date.

 

[Number7]

Dr. Deming was turned away by Detroit prior to venturing to Japan. One of the biggest mistakes made to date.

That would have been the RED BALL experiment. Remember it well.

 

[wsuffa]

I am going by my experience with a fairly new (2008) airplane. Before someone calls that "old" I'll say that these problems have be happening all its life. The majority of things which go wrong with it can be tied to some very expensive PC board or other electronic component such as a switch or solenoid. Mechanically it has been pretty sound.

You are talking about your cars from 2000 and 2001. They may have had computers but new cars have many more computerized components. It will be interesting to see how robust these systems are but I have my doubts.

More importantly, replacement parts for those electronics will be outright unavailable at some point in the future. Ask the military about dealing with obsolete components.