glucosamine

[murphey]

Anyone here taking it? Just in the past week my knees have really started hurting (welcome to getting older...). The solution, of course, is to take off some weight, which will take time, but I've started the process.

Turns out the glucosamine is made from shell fish, of which I'm allergic. But, there's a vegetarian version with no shell fish. Many years ago my father took the glucosamine/chondroitin mix for his knees and it seemed to help. He was diabetic and had high blood pressure, and his doctor didn't have any qualms about it. Panacea, placebo, or does it even work? I'm trying to get some idea if taking it is even worth the effort.

 

[alaskaflyer]

I take it and have for a long time. Anecdotal evidence that it helps with my cartilage-poor elbow and knees (old athletic injuries) - they don't seem to hurt as much anymore :shrug: I have actually pondered going off of it for a while as a control to see if I notice a change for the worse. I'm still pretty active, which helps so long as the 'ole joints don't rub too much on each other in one day.

I think that there is a fair amount of evidence that it works very well in the veterinary world - though the patients cannot talk to you, they usually are very honest in their actions and positive effects in dog mobility are evident soon after they begin taking it.

 

[EppyGA]

Been taking it for years. Has it helped? Not sure I can delineate whether it has or not. While I am a bit overweight at 58 I can still do a lot of things. My knees don't bother me.

 

[wpierce]

I take the supplement every day, triple strength, one pill a day now, but I started with 3 pills a day and slowly weaned down. For a long time I had trouble with my lower back. Debilitating trouble, usually about once a year something would trigger it (like a sneeze, or picking something up wrong, etc.) and it would take 3 months to get back to normal. I have a ruptured disc and a herniated disc in between L3 and L4 and L4 and L5. Excruciating pain for a while then it would SLOWLY start easing off til no pain at all.

Then, probably 8 or 9 years ago now, I started taking the supplement. For the first year or two I would still get an occasional bout of Sciatica but for the last 5 or 6 years I've had no problem. I am right now knocking on the wood block sitting squarely on my shoulders.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Glucosmine Sulphate is for osteoarthritis. It won't do anything for herniated discs or for sciatica caused by pinched nerves or bone spurs. Vets feed glucosamine hydrochloride to racehorses.

Osteoarthritis is the wearing away of the cartilage in the joint, resulting in bone-to-bone grinding and very much pain. Six years ago my right hip had me pretty much crippled, and I started taking glucosamine sulphate with Chondroitin. After about three months (minimum 1600 mg glucosamine per day) I had a noticable improvement, and a year later the hip was well-behaved. It can still give me grief if I abuse it, but it's a whole lot better than using a cane or crutches. I now take 1000 mg per day and often forget that. Nothing much happens if you miss a few days. The process is very slow.

It doesn't help everyone. I've read that studies indicate that it may slow or stop the degeneration, or it might actually rebuild the joint, which is what seemed to happen with me.

If you can't tolerate the shellfish product, there's a much more expensive version available in the form of shark cartilage.

Dan

 

[Cap'n Jack]

It's glucose with the #3 hydroxyl replaced with an amine group. It's made from the shells of shellfish or fermented from corn. At the typical pH of our bodies, the amine is positively charged- it doesn't matter if the compound is a chloride or sulfate salt for this compound.

It may or may not help (YMMV), but it won't do any harm either.

 

[RJM62]

I take it and have been for about two years. I have a bad rotator cuff (old baseball injury -- short guy trying to throw fastballs and not understanding the limitations of physics), bursitis, and mild arthritis (runs in the family). I actually take Glucosamine / Chondroitin / MSM, as well as an herb called Cat's Claw.

The combined shoulder problems were the worst. When I was flying taildraggers (before I started taking the supplements), there were days when I would get in the airplane, get cleared to taxi, and then ground myself and turn back to the FBO before I got to the runway because it hurt so much to hold the stick back. And I have a pretty high pain tolerance.

Regarding effectiveness, I know that if I stop taking it for three or four days, the pain starts to come back. A few days after I start taking it again, the pain starts to go away. Within a week or two, the pain is gone.

As to whether it's the Glucosamine or the Cat's Claw that's taking the pain away, I'd say mainly the Glucosamine. It seems to take away about 90 percent of the pain. When I add the Cat's Claw, the remaining 10 percent goes away. But if I just take the Cat's Claw, only about half the pain goes away.

Yeah, all this is purely empirical and highly subjective. Take it for what it's worth. It's hard to rate one's own pain. Compared to, say, my last gall bladder attack (which I would rate as an 11 on a scale of one to ten, with ten being the worst pain I previously could have imagined possible), my shoulder pain was about a three. Now it's a zero most of all the time. I still get the occasional twinge if I sleep with my arm twisted the wrong way; but all in all, I'm considering trying out for the Yankees next year.

By the way -- you mentioned that your father had diabetes and took it. Most research indicates that Glucosamine is safe for diabetics to take. I have Type II diabetes, and the Glucosamine doesn't affect my glucose levels at all. But if you're diabetic or doing a low-carb diet, be cautioned that some formulations contain a lot of sugar as an inactive ingredient, presumably as a binder.

In summary, my advice would be to talk it over with your doc and give it a shot if he/she has no objections. The preponderance of studies suggest that it's safer and more effective than a lot of the prescription alternatives, and it won't ground you. Don't expect overnight results, however. That's not how it works. Don't expect to start feeling results for a couple of weeks to a few months.

-Rich

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Here is a pretty well constructed double-blinded study using controls and statistical analysis, no apparent biases.... for anyone interested in Science's stance on these things:
http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm

"Overall, there were no significant differences between the other* treatments tested and placebo."
*"other" being not celecoxib

My biggest objection to something that is not proven by science is that folks could be wasting Billions of their hard earned dollars on things that really don't work. And that money is going to folks who can't really be called scammers, but they are not exactly truthful either.
However if it seems to work, you feel better and it does not hurt you, I'm all for it*.
*"It" being, how you choose to spend your money, not necessarily that I am for the nutriceutical of the day.

 

[alaskaflyer]

But...

For a subset of participants with moderate-to-severe pain, glucosamine combined with chondroitin sulfate provided statistically significant pain relief compared with placebo—about 79 percent had a 20 percent or greater reduction in pain versus about 54 percent for placebo. According to the researchers, because of the small size of this subgroup these findings should be considered preliminary and need to be confirmed in further studies.
For participants in the mild pain subset, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate together or alone did not provide statistically significant pain relief.

 

[steingar]

There is no earthly reason why glucosamine or condroitin sulfate should do anything to anyone. They'll be broken down into base components in the digestive system and rendered inert. However, never underestimate placebo effects.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Sorry, that is still only clinging to a hope. The main thrust in this study is that there was no measurable improvement with glucosamine alone.

But...
For a subset of participants with moderate-to-severe pain, glucosamine combined with chondroitin sulfate provided statistically significant pain relief compared with placebo—about 79 percent had a 20 percent or greater reduction in pain versus about 54 percent for placebo. According to the researchers, because of the small size of this subgroup these findings should be considered preliminary and need to be confirmed in further studies.
For participants in the mild pain subset, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate together or alone did not provide statistically significant pain relief.

(most joint pain out there is probably considered 'mild')

 

[wabower]

Mixed reviews from this precinct. A good friend with whom I flew G-V's is also an Ind Engr and highly analytical. He says the stuff took him from being almost totally crippled to a relatively normal and pain-free life. The missus said it didn't do squat for her knees.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Here is a pretty well constructed double-blinded study using controls and statistical analysis, no apparent biases.... for anyone interested in Science's stance on these things:
http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm

"Overall, there were no significant differences between the other* treatments tested and placebo."
*"other" being not celecoxib

My biggest objection to something that is not proven by science is that folks could be wasting Billions of their hard earned dollars on things that really don't work. And that money is going to folks who can't really be called scammers, but they are not exactly truthful either.
However if it seems to work, you feel better and it does not hurt you, I'm all for it*.
*"It" being, how you choose to spend your money, not necessarily that I am for the nutriceutical of the day.

And for me it works. The doctors were talking hip replacement for me, not something I wanted since I'm too young and those things don't last all that long. A friend also started taking it for an arthritic hip and it's worked for him, too. I've read some other reputable studies that indicated some effectiveness, though it's not on the same level as Vioxx (sure worked for me but now off the market) or Celebrex (which, curiously, did nothing for me). My aviation doc won't prescribe Celebrex for any pilot, either, since it's in the same class as Vioxx, which caused heart failures in a few folks, mostly those who took far too much of it.

There are foods I avoid, too. Tomatoes once in a while, but never tomato juice (V-8 and Clamato); they'll make it flare up for sure. Pork seems to bother some folks but I don't eat much of it so can't say. Citrus fruits and juices are another group that get my inflammation going. Interestingly, citrus and tomatoes are both fairly acidic, and an old book I read on osteoarthritis says that acidic foods are to be avoided. Even apple juice is acidic, and I love apples. And I love tomatoes and lemons and oranges and V-8. Why couldn't it be turnips or broccoli?

Dan

 

[Dan Thomas]

There is no earthly reason why glucosamine or condroitin sulfate should do anything to anyone. They'll be broken down into base components in the digestive system and rendered inert. However, never underestimate placebo effects.

How does one measure placebo effect in racehorses?

Dan

 

[kevin47881]

Was taking the G/C/MSM for about a year (right knee was acting up about a year post-op). In about 2 weeks the locking up stopped. Have been off of it now for about 2.5 months and the knee is locking up again. Anecdotal, yes, but it is my experience. YMMV of course.

 

[steingar]

How does one measure placebo effect in racehorses?

Dan

It might help horses for real for all I know. Their digestive systems are very, very different from those of humans. But the stuff gets broken down to its base components in our digestive systems.

 

[RJM62]

I wonder about studies like this, which seem to disprove something that masses of people swear by. These supplements aren't exactly dirt cheap; and considering the quantity that are sold every year to people who have experienced relief as a result of taking them, it's hard to write all that anecdotal and empirical evidence off as placebo effect.

Instead, I wonder if similar pathologies can result from different causes in different people, and a given supplement's efficacy limited to the subset of patients whose symptoms had a particular cause. Despite advances in medicine and biology, I think it's safe to say that there's still a great deal that we simply don't understand about human physiology.

-Rich

 

[steingar]

Everyone thinking the world was flat didn't make it so.

 

[murphey]

Rich mentions his gall bladder pain as 11 of 10. My last attack was definitely a 15/10! And, of course, my doctor (no longer my doctor) had mis-diagnosed it for 5 years.

I'm not diabetic, but it runs in the family. Need to check the bottle (the non-shell fish version) about the sugar, but that's not an issue for me (at least not right now).

 

[murphey]

There is no earthly reason why glucosamine or condroitin sulfate should do anything to anyone. They'll be broken down into base components in the digestive system and rendered inert. However, never underestimate placebo effects.

If that's true, then it must also be true for most other oral medications and supplements? Hence there's no reason to take any oral medications?

 

[RJM62]

Rich mentions his gall bladder pain as 11 of 10. My last attack was definitely a 15/10! And, of course, my doctor (no longer my doctor) had mis-diagnosed it for 5 years.

I'm not diabetic, but it runs in the family. Need to check the bottle (the non-shell fish version) about the sugar, but that's not an issue for me (at least not right now).

Murph, mine was misdiagnosed as well -- for 15 years. When I finally went to a GREAT gastro guy, he asked, "How in the hell did you endure this pain for all these years?" I guess I have a high pain threshold. But that last attack... I was wishing I could die, and thought I just might.

I could kiss the surgeon who removed it. (In fact, I think I may have... the anesthesia does strange things...) The gall bladder was adhesed to the liver, but the doc still managed to remove it laparoscopically. Apparently he's somewhat of a specialist: He removes four or five gall bags a day. Mine took him two hours of scraping. The anesthesiologist said it looked like a sweat sock full of marbles.

Glad to be rid of that thing, let me tell ya.

-Rich

 

[wabower]

But that belief saved countless thousands of lives nonetheless; nobody sailed close to the edge.

Everyone thinking the world was flat didn't make it so.

 

[wby0nder]

According to my vet, there is a lot of variation in the quality of glucosamine supplements which may account for the variation in reported effects. She said that she noticed this in treating her patients and herself. Says some work great and others are useless but you cant tell by whats on the label. It just depends on which company it comes from and once you have a good one stick with it.

 

[colohan]

Anyone here taking it? Just in the past week my knees have really started hurting (welcome to getting older...). The solution, of course, is to take off some weight, which will take time, but I've started the process.

I've been taking Glucosamine/MSM for years for my bad knees (and I'm still in my 30's). It seems to work for me -- at least, when I run out and am too lazy to buy more, that tends to be the time when I hurt my knees again.

Then again, it could be purely a dose of Obecalp 150mg. (Aka, placebo.) As I have no double-blind brand sugar pills to compare with, I have no way of knowing... But given that it doesn't hurt, and appears to help, I keep on taking it.

Chris

 

[alaskaflyer]

According to the Wiki, there have been studies subsequent to the NIH stidy referenced above, some with more "proven" positive results, some not

There is no earthly reason why glucosamine or condroitin sulfate should do anything to anyone. They'll be broken down into base components in the digestive system

As I imagine most medications are...

and rendered inert.

Sezwho?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If that's true, then it must also be true for most other oral medications and supplements? Hence there's no reason to take any oral medications?

In this case, it's a compound we can probably get naturally from our food and our cells synthesize ourselves since it is used to glycosolate various proteins (this means add a "sugar" group to them). This is done to control the actions of these proteins.

The body will use whatever glucosamine it needs and break down the rest and/or excrete it.

I'm pretty sure this is where Steingar was going (and he'll correct me if I'm wrong). Keep in mind he's a biologist/biochemist and has probably forgotten more of this stuff than the rest of the POA (with a few exceptions such as Dr. B Chien) know. Ask him nicely and he'll explain where he's coming from in more detail.

Whether excess glucosamine is used by the body in other ways is still an open question.

 

[steingar]

If that's true, then it must also be true for most other oral medications and supplements? Hence there's no reason to take any oral medications?

Most oral medications are simple molecules that can pass through the digestive system without being neutralized.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Anyone here taking it? Just in the past week my knees have really started hurting (welcome to getting older...). The solution, of course, is to take off some weight, which will take time, but I've started the process.

Turns out the glucosamine is made from shell fish, of which I'm allergic. But, there's a vegetarian version with no shell fish. Many years ago my father took the glucosamine/chondroitin mix for his knees and it seemed to help. He was diabetic and had high blood pressure, and his doctor didn't have any qualms about it. Panacea, placebo, or does it even work? I'm trying to get some idea if taking it is even worth the effort.

My sister bought me a bottle of the stuff in September, after I was all messed up with a bad back and other aches and pains. She's taken it for years, and swears by it.

I've taken it daily since then, which means I'm one month into it.

Since then my back is 100% healed. Would it have healed anyway? Probably, although I've had back problems off and one for over 35 years. My aches seem to be much less. I can now rake leaves (for example) for a couple of hours without hurting the next day.

Placebo effect? Actual improvement? I have no clue. All I know is I feel markedly better in just one month.

 

[steingar]

In this case, it's a compound we can probably get naturally from our food and our cells synthesize ourselves since it is used to glycosolate various proteins (this means add a "sugar" group to them). This is done to control the actions of these proteins.

The body will use whatever glucosamine it needs and break down the rest and/or excrete it.

I'm pretty sure this is where Steingar was going (and he'll correct me if I'm wrong). Keep in mind he's a biologist/biochemist and has probably forgotten more of this stuff than the rest of the POA (with a few exceptions such as Dr. B Chien) know. Ask him nicely and he'll explain where he's coming from in more detail.

Whether excess glucosamine is used by the body in other ways is still an open question.

Not quite what I was thinking. If you are a hemophiliac because you lack a blood clotting enzyme, why not just eat some of that enzyme? Drink blood plasma like a vampire, you'll get plenty. But the protein gets broken down as it moves through the digestive system into amino acids. Most of the complex molecules found in connective tissue like cartilage will be treated similarly.

So what if you do boost the level of these building blocks intracellularly? The Cap'n has a very good point, the level of these things is regulated physiologically. There is no reason to think that boosting levels of one or the other will do anything, and clinical trials have failed to uncover any benefit.

That said, there is no harm either, except to your wallet, and people spend more money on far more foolish things. And I wasn't being facetious, if you think something will make you feel better it often will. Prior to WWII that was the basis of most medicines.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Most oral medications are simple molecules that can pass through the digestive system without being neutralized.

Could you please expand on this?

Do you mean that most of the medicine passes through the digestive system, and a small amount that does get adsorbed provides the therapeutic effect?

I'm fairly sure there's a number of medicinal chemists that would disagree with the statement I quoted as it's written.

 

[bstratt]

I am allergic to shellfish (mollusks, bi-valves, crustaceans, etc) and I have been taking it for years without ill effect. Most allergies (95% I heard) to shellfish are allergies to iodine. If this is the case with you you may want to eliminate iodized salt depending on severity of the allergy.

As to whether or not it works? Who knows. How do you prove you'd be worse without it. But as long as at worst its neutral I'll keep taking it.

 

[steingar]

Could you please expand on this?

Do you mean that most of the medicine passes through the digestive system, and a small amount that does get adsorbed provides the therapeutic effect?

I'm fairly sure there's a number of medicinal chemists that would disagree with the statement I quoted as it's written.

You of course point out a misstatement on my part. I just got back from teaching genetics, give me a break. Most oral medications are simple compounds that are not destroyed by the digestive system and can be absorbed into the bloodstream in an active form.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Not quite what I was thinking. If you are a hemophiliac because you lack a blood clotting enzyme, why not just eat some of that enzyme? Drink blood plasma like a vampire, you'll get plenty. But the protein gets broken down as it moves through the digestive system into amino acids. Most of the complex molecules found in connective tissue like cartilage will be treated similarly.

<SNIP>

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your statement above.

I'm trying to take a fairly complex subject and simplify it for those without the biochem background... unfortunately, the simplification does allow one to make a statement like the one you used as an illustration or draw other incorrect conclusions.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

<SNIP> I just got back from teaching genetics, give me a break. <SNIP>

Could have been worse...you could have come back from quantum mechanics. My prof didn't appreciate my attempted conversion of "complete neglect of differential overlap" to "complete neglect of everything" on an assignment many years ago...


CNDO is a calculation used to approximate determine chemical bonds (bond length, bond strength, etc). To most people, the equations look like poorly spelled Greek.

 

[steingar]

If I were better at math I'd probably wound up a Physicist.

 

[gprellwitz]

If I were better at math I'd probably wound up a Physicist.

If I were better at boxing I'd probably wound a Physicist.

It'll be interesting to see if people stop seeing positive benefits from glucosamine after reading this thread. If so, that would seem to prove the placebo effect!

Personally, I find that my joint pain is directly related to my weight. Losing just a few pounds can make a big difference, which is what murphey said in the first post too.

 

[steingar]

It'll be interesting to see if people stop seeing positive benefits from glucosamine after reading this thread. If so, that would seem to prove the placebo effect!

Depends if anyone actually believes me, which no one will in all probability.

Personally, I find that my joint pain is directly related to my weight. Losing just a few pounds can make a big difference, which is what murphey said in the first post too.

A rather large number of medical ailments can be treated with weight loss. heck, even my gout responded to it.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Depends if anyone actually believes me, which no one will in all probability.

It's funny how many of the same people here complain about how the media get aviation stories wrong, but happily believe them on other stuff while ignoring a true expert.

Personally, I find that my joint pain is directly related to my weight. Losing just a few pounds can make a big difference, which is what murphey said in the first post too.

A rather large number of medical ailments can be treated with weight loss. heck, even my gout responded to it.

I don't have the gout, but I see the same thing. A little excercise seems to reduce a variety of aches too (especially in my back), but it could be my version of a placebo effect.

 

[steingar]

No, exercise helps in more ways than I can name. It has assisted my spouse as well. More flexibility (she even rode on the back of my race bike this summer), more endurance, and fewer illnesses.

 

[wsuffa]

A family member was put on glucosamine by their doc. Seemed to make a difference, according to them. Then again, it was a medicare doc on a 3 minute exam, so what do they know?