Gliders in Class B approach corridors

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

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Safety alert being sent to glider operators (see below). These gliders are not IN the Class B, but just outside, sometimes without a transponder... and up high, where the jets are. The DEN incident listed below was 40nm SW of KDEN, near an arrival route. Based on the altitudes and flight conditions described, the glider was presumably just below the bases... hopefully not IMC himself.

The "Reno '06" incident Sammy refers to is this one (with pictures).

Be careful out there... and use your transponder!

Since May of this year, there have been 4 close calls reported
between sailplanes and airliners: Dallas, Las Vegas, Tuscon and now
Denver. Only the Denver event involved a transponder equipped
sailplane. In light of Reno '06, (had a transponder but was off), I
think this is a serious trend.

For better or for worse, professional pilots are relying more on TCAS
to help them search and respond to traffic. Working transponders in
sailplanes are now more important than ever.

Sammy Lockwood
ATSAP AAT Analyst
Albuquerque Tower ATC

09/01/2012 1930Z Aprox 40 SW DEN

[ Captain ] We were on the POWDR 7 Arrival flying into DEN leveled at
17,000’. ATC told us we had traffic at our 12 o’clock position and
that it was a glider. They also told us that they are not in
communications with them. I noticed that the glider did have a
transponder and was indicating 500’ below and less than five miles
in front of us. I mentioned to my First Officer to be ready to climb.
I was also waiting for ATC to give us a vector away from the glider.
Once the glider got 400’ below us, I told my First Officer to start
climbing. He reached up and tried to use the Vertical Speed knob. I
told him with urgency to disengage the autopilot and climb
immediately! As I was saying that, we got the RA to climb. When I
looked at the TCAS screen, the glider was 200’ directly below us. We
had to climb to 18,500’ to avoid the traffic. We told ATC we had a
RA and we were in a climb. Once we were away from the traffic, we had
an uneventful approach and landing.

[ First Officer ] On the POWDR Arrival into DEN at 17,000’ MSL, we received a
traffic call from Denver Approach about a glider in our flight path.
We were IMC, but the Captain (PM) saw the TCAS hit and directed a
climb. We were just leveling so I tried to use Vertical Speed to slow
the descent. The MCP went to Altitude Acquire so this didn’t work.
Then we got the TCAS 'Traffic, Traffic' call. I spun the MCP altitude
up and started a Vertical Speed climb. The PM again directed a climb.
We then received the TCAS 'Climb,Climb' call. I finally disconnected
the autopilot and climbed to 18,500’ MSL hoping this would be a safe
altitude. This occurred over the course of about 20 seconds.
Recommended Changes: Anytime you anticipate a traffic conflict, TCAS
warning or not, be prepared to disconnect the autopilot and fly
manually. I was reluctant to disconnect the autopilot in IMC, on an
IFR clearance in busy airspace, but you must react quicker than the
autopilot does.
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well i bet they're glad that the glider had a transponder and obviously wish they had taken action sooner.
 
tonycondon said:
well i bet they're glad that the glider had a transponder and obviously wish they had taken action sooner.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but out of four incidents (5 if you count Reno '06) only the one in Denver did!

Only the Denver event involved a transponder equipped sailplane.
Click to expand...

If you're gonna fly high near Class B, seems prudent!
 
Wouldn't have been SW airlines would it?

I have heard through the grapevine that they have initiated a policy (probably unofficially) to report a near miss anytime they see a glider.

Never did get the FAA to tell me what the official definition of a near miss is?

I had a near miss report with one early this year, I had them visually at 5 miles out and they passed over a 1/2 mile away from me on diverging headings as I maneuvered out of their flight path.

Brian
 
well the plain truth is that transponders are expensive and require a lot of power. i managed to get a deal on mine but probably spent at least two seasons worth of tows on it. the biggest problem is that there is not a portable solution so now i have the transponder in one glider but in the other 2 privately owned gliders or the multiple club gliders i fly i'm still invisible.

I also went ahead and bought a portable PowerFLARM which shows me range rings and relative altitudes of mode C transponders as well as ADS-B targets. That was probably 3 or 4 seasons worth of tows. It has come in handy a few times this season though.
 
by the way do you have any info on the other reported misses this year?
 
Captain said that they "had an RA." I'm probably being dense, but could someone remind me what that is? Is that the notification from the TCAS system? If so, what does "RA" stand for?
 
tonycondon said:
by the way do you have any info on the other reported misses this year?
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You mean the referenced Dallas / Las Vegas / Tuscon events? No, but I've asked back up the chain from which I received the report above... will let you know what I find out.
 
based on my observations at the 1-26/13.5 meter contest at TSA i'd bet the Dallas one was a southwest jet on a north flow day. They come right over TSA (outside the class B) at 4000 MSL in that case...I was very happy to have my PowerFLARM with me then.
 
tonycondon said:
based on my observations at the 1-26/13.5 meter contest at TSA i'd bet the Dallas one was a southwest jet on a north flow day. They come right over TSA (outside the class B) at 4000 MSL in that case...I was very happy to have my PowerFLARM with me then.
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That would make sense...
 
I'm not aware of any reported near miss between gliders and airliners in the LAS Class B area this summer. The local FSDO would be visiting us if there was, although they were looking for the local commercial glider operator last month.

Our glider pilots have reported visual sightings of airliners well below the ceiling of Class B airspace within the Mode C Veil. The LAS Class B is being redesigned to help aliviate part of the problems.

I did spend some time this summer chasing down a near miss report for the local FAASTeam Manager between an airliner on climbout with a pair of motorized parasail ultralights over the top of Class B above 11K MSL.
 
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brcase said:
Never did get the FAA to tell me what the official definition of a near miss is?
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AIM 7-6-3
b. Definition. A near midair collision is defined as an incident associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft.


I recall reading a scale of severity of events that goes along with this, but it's not listed in the AIM.
 
tonycondon said:
resolution advisory i think
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Yes, and if they get an RA, they have to follow it and advise ATC, regardless of what ATC clearance they may have.

RA only works with transponders, not with non transponder equipped or FLARM or other items that warn you of transponder equipped aircraft are nearby.
 
We got very close to a glider on the arrival into Teterboro a number if years ago. I got a glimpse of the sun off its wings or I probably would not have seen it.
 
"I was reluctant to disconnect the autopilot in IMC, on an IFR clearance in busy airspace" WTF???? WTF???

And this from the PF!!!! This is the scariest thing I have ever heard a "professional" pilot say. I sure hope I'm not riding behind this idiot if they have a systems issue.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
"I was reluctant to disconnect the autopilot in IMC, on an IFR clearance in busy airspace" WTF???? WTF???

And this from the PF!!!! This is the scariest thing I have ever heard a "professional" pilot say. I sure hope I'm not riding behind this idiot if they have a systems issue.
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How many pilots did it take to stall the Air France 'bus into the Atlantic?
 
Clark1961 said:
How many pilots did it take to stall the Air France 'bus into the Atlantic?
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From the transcripts I read there was only one pilot on board...and he was in the head. He walked into the middle of that mess, diagnosed the problem, and began directing the two "employees" at the controls on how to fix it. They just ran out of time.

Bottom line is if you don't have the self-confidence to hand fly your airplane when the stuff hits the fan, you have no business on the flight deck.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
From the transcripts I read there was only one pilot on board...and he was in the head. He walked into the middle of that mess, diagnosed the problem, and began directing the two "employees" at the controls on how to fix it. They just ran out of time.

Bottom line is if you don't have the self-confidence to hand fly your airplane when the stuff hits the fan, you have no business on the flight deck.
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We share a similar point-of-view: they needed one more than they had at the controls...and we (the self-loading freight) ride behind them every day.
 
\__[Ô]__/;989260 said:
AIM 7-6-3
b. Definition. A near midair collision is defined as an incident associated with the operation of an aircraft in which a possibility of collision occurs as a result of proximity of less than 500 feet to another aircraft, or a report is received from a pilot or a flight crew member stating that a collision hazard existed between two or more aircraft.


I recall reading a scale of severity of events that goes along with this, but it's not listed in the AIM.
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This is good info but is there an official reg on reporting one for pilots? I need to check the FARs to see. Its still a little vague in the AIM. I had one called as 'traffic 12 o'clock, 1/4 mile, opposite direction.' I looked (so did a competent ifr instructor in the right seat), didn't see him so initiated a climbing right turn looking for him all the way. He never showed. That's the only near miss i'd say i've had and I still don't know if he was 100 foot below us, or 3000 foot above. I can only speculate he was something like a non-elec piper cub or something not in contact with approach. Does this apply? Do I have to report it? I didn't report it as they called us clear of traffic just after and didn't see him. He was a primary target.
 
TriGear28 said:
This is good info but is there an official reg on reporting one for pilots? I need to check the FARs to see. Its still a little vague in the AIM. I had one called as 'traffic 12 o'clock, 1/4 mile, opposite direction.' I looked (so did a competent ifr instructor in the right seat), didn't see him so initiated a climbing right turn looking for him all the way. He never showed. That's the only near miss i'd say i've had and I still don't know if he was 100 foot below us, or 3000 foot above. I can only speculate he was something like a non-elec piper cub or something not in contact with approach. Does this apply? Do I have to report it? I didn't report it as they called us clear of traffic just after and didn't see him. He was a primary target.
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If you never saw him, and ATC only reported a primary return, altitude unknown. You do not know if it was a near hit hazard or not. He could have been 500ft AGL or 10,000 ft above you.

So what is there to report? NOTHING

Why would you climb? A level turn would be better, you could have climbed into him. He may have seen you and knew he had altitude clearance, and then you climbed into him and he had to threat react. :hairraise:
 
After they clear the skies of those stupid gliders they will come for your stinkpot little airplanes.
 
Well, I have been around a long time.
Some things never change.

One of those is that in VMC you are REQUIRED to see and avoid - it does not matter what class of airspace you are in or at what flight level. Whining that you are on an instrument flight plan, or that the airspace is too busy to disengage the AP simply identifies you as the major problem. I am surprised that the FSDO did not take exception to that ATP pilot's comments and have a talk with him.

Next is, that the commercial airlines absolutely believe they own the national airspace - all of it.
ATC, being in bed with them, does nothing to remind them they do not.

Another is, that increasing technology gives GA the ability to operate at high altitudes previously seldom ventured into. A sailplane, or an UL something or other, or whatever, that is above 10,000 feet and WITHOUT a Mode C transponder is definitely a hazard to fast moving airliners and business/military jets.
While I am against any more regulations on GA, and while I am NOT a fan of either the jets with their head in the panel (or up a dark place) or the military hotdogs (ditto) reality is that we need to require anything flying above 10,000 feet to have a working Mode C.
 
Skydivers and paragliders too? I'll get to work building a mode c suppository.
 
Am I missing something?

14 CFR 91.215(b)(4) requires an operating transponder for all aircraft above 10,000 MSL, and 14 CFR 91.215(b)(3)(ii) and 14 CFR 91.215(b)95)(ii) say the non-electrical exception does NOT apply.

Skydivers are not aircraft, but one would hope they aren't jumping through approach corridors and that ATC is aware of them. Presumably, they jumped from an aircraft.
 
MAKG1 said:
Am I missing something?

14 CFR 91.215(b)(4) requires an operating transponder for all aircraft above 10,000 MSL, and 14 CFR 91.215(b)(3)(ii) and 14 CFR 91.215(b)95)(ii) say the non-electrical exception does NOT apply.

Skydivers are not aircraft, but one would hope they aren't jumping through approach corridors and that ATC is aware of them. Presumably, they jumped from an aircraft.
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ParaJumpers are not aircraft. But I'm sure the plane they jump from is talking to ATC before the jump if that close to Class B and it has a transponder. Most jump operations do not use J-3 Cubs.

I do not understand your reference to 91.215(b)3 and (b)5. Aircraft with no engine driven electrical system ARE exempt from transponder requirements within the Mode C Veil and above 10,000MSL.
 
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