Glider pilots

VA Aviator

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VA Aviator
Signed up here hoping I would find someone in the know... glider guys don't seem to have much of a web presence. No worries, I should be able to contribute to the powered part of the forum....

Anyway... I've not flown in over five years and I'm considering giving it another shot. For a variety of reasons, I've taken an interest in gliders.


Any glider pilots made the transition from powered to unpowered flight? If so, I'm curious about what the training involves. As an example -

In primary airplane training, you spend many hours banging out landing after landing. What about gliders? Do you do tow after tow in one day?

The natural progression for a prospective airplane pilot starts with basic maneuvers, then landings, then a little of the above three, solo, then things like night and controlled airports, cross country, solo cross country, more landings, checkride. What's it like for a glider student?

This is the sort of stuff I'm wondering about.

Thanks!
 
Welcome back! Where are you?

Did you ever complete your powered training to achieve the rating?

Glider training does depend on tows, we plan an hour with each student. Depending on lift conditions and training objectives, you could get three tows in that hour, or spend the whole hour working on thermal or ridge lift soaring with just one tow to get started.

As you get closer to solo, you could spend the whole hour getting 5 or 6 tows to pattern altitude and landing.

We do need to complete the air work first, basic control of the aircraft and airspeed control, turn control. Cannot transition to landings if you have not mastered direction and speed control. Some early pilots just let the thermal or lift bumps steer the glider. That does not work.

Also need to be able to fly on tow and get yourself out of trouble on your own, recognize that there is a problem and correct it. Before we can let you solo.

Training syllabus is much the same as power, basics first, then solo, solo practice, then polish for the check ride.

There is a web presence for soaring pilots, just not the normal forums such as POA or Purple Board. A popular usenet or newsgroup is recreation.aviation.soaring.
 
Signed up here hoping I would find someone in the know... glider guys don't seem to have much of a web presence. No worries, I should be able to contribute to the powered part of the forum....

Anyway... I've not flown in over five years and I'm considering giving it another shot. For a variety of reasons, I've taken an interest in gliders.


Any glider pilots made the transition from powered to unpowered flight? If so, I'm curious about what the training involves. As an example -

In primary airplane training, you spend many hours banging out landing after landing. What about gliders? Do you do tow after tow in one day?

The natural progression for a prospective airplane pilot starts with basic maneuvers, then landings, then a little of the above three, solo, then things like night and controlled airports, cross country, solo cross country, more landings, checkride. What's it like for a glider student?

This is the sort of stuff I'm wondering about.

Thanks!
Many years ago I joined a sailplane club in the area and got a glider rating. It was a pretty easy transition and I only had a couple hundred hours of powered airplane time then.

There is no xc requirement for a glider checkride. Landing a glider is far easier than any airplane I've flown and if you're reasonably competent landing a 172 or Warrior you'll probably be comfortable landing a sailplane after very few tries (hint: the speed brakes/spoilers make it a cinch).

Probably the toughest thing you have to learn is flying on tow (assuming you're using aero-tow) which involves a simple form of formation flying. Second is judging and managing your energy so as to arrive in the pattern with enough to fly a normal downwind, base, and final.

Glider training flights at the club I joined were conducted in the morning which is usually a time when finding lift (in the flatlands) is pretty much out of the question. A typical flight lasts about 20 minutes and a good portion of that time will be on tow, which is good since as I mentioned that's an area you'll probably want to spend significant time.

IIRC you're required to have 20 flights before your checkride and I found that to be plenty. You'll need to learn a bunch of hand signals and aero signals (wing rocks, tail wags etc) as well as how to assemble and disassemble a glider in addition to the flying but that's also easy compared to studying for the PPL written test (no written test required to transition from airplane to glider).

I do highly recommend you pursue this. It's a lot of fun and will make you a better pilot all around.
 
Add on ratings from power to glider require 10 solo for private or 20 solo for commercial.

Add on ratings are different than AB-initio. All the information is in the reg, 61.109 or 61.129 as appropriate.

I've had rated transition pilots that could not grasp the air maneuvers required to solo and land a glider safely. Made me nervous to know they were flying powered aircraft.

No, you can't necessarily teach an old dog new tricks.
 
Wow, that was quick... thanks guys.

I guess I need to update my profile, but I'm in central VA (anyone a member of Merlin or Tidewater Soaring Society by chance?)

I'm a private pilot with single engine land, sea and instrument ratings. I'd like to get my commercial and CFI at some point, but need to get back in the game first. I figure I could go throw a bunch of $$$ at a flight school to fart around in the air with no real meaning, or I could pursue something meaningful and make myself a better pilot... why not gliders?
 
There is an outfit in Front Royal, VA. Skyline soaring association iirc. It looks like a really nice area to fly gliders.
 
Bob Wander has a number of small, very nice pamphlets or booklets on various aspects of gliding. He is generally well regarded as an instructor. Take a look at his materials. They are inexpensive.
http://www.bobwander.com/
 
BTW, you can throw a considerable amount of money at gliders, just as you can at power planes.
 
We are out there, and we have a pretty good web presence... on a par, I'd say,with the number of glider certificates issued. A lot of us transitioned from power, too.
Here's my story:
Got my PPASEL when I could barely keep up with my bills, let alone afford to rent or buy and airplane. But I wanted it; wanted it real bad. I made it happen, somehow.
Rented from FBOs for a while, found a club (which was a much better deal overall), club and I both moved farther away from each other, 2001 crushed my hopes of moving up a few notches financially in my career at the time... couldn't afford the club, especially with the commute to that airport. I then stopped flying for 4 years (shudder).
Couldn't stand it anymore, got back into it. Started making more money, got my tailwheel endorsement, looked into getting a loan for a good 2-seat taildragger about the time the latest "depression" started... got discouraged. :rolleyes: Thought about finding a partnership, but then my work situation tanked even deeper. Ugh.

During that period, I discovered there was a little glider club based where I was renting Cessnas. Met and made friends with some of the members, got lured into a ride, and found exactly what I was looking for- not just in terms of cost, but in terms of some flying that would really challenge my passion and whet my appetite for real enjoyable flying (instead of logging another couple hours alone going nowhere special because plans to share expenses with friends had fallen through yet again). The key things, with this particular club, are that instruction is free, and there's no hourly rate for glider flight- once I got a handle on the flying, my hourly cost depended on how much time I could get off a given tow. It's a powerful incentive for a guy on a tight budget.

My experience so far with this club is probably not typical, but it's definitely worth a shot for anyone who is interested in gliders. Most glider pilots, even those who divide their flying time between gliders and power, will tell you it's addictive and very rewarding.

So how does the training compare to ASEL training? Very similar, really. You may very well make a series of short hops on a given day...depends on the number of students, instructors, towplanes and trainers available.
But it's different in that you won't just work on any one aspect on a given day. Every flight (assuming aerotow) involves staging the glider, the launch, the tow, the release, some maneuvers, maximizing performance, learning to use cues other than the instruments for target airspeeds, etc.... planning ahead for the pattern entry, flying the pattern, making a precision landing. Glider training is quite simple in comparison to power, but consistency and precision are vital, because after release, it is an "engine out scenario". And if you want to work thermals or ridge or wave lift, or fly XC, you can't be sloppy, in thinking or handling the aircraft.

On my first glider lesson, I didn't fly the launch or tow, but was observing very closely. After release, I made my clumsy effort to make some decent turns, fly at target airspeeds, and fly the lower and closer glider pattern. My first landing was assisted. Barely 20 minutes from launch to landing, and it cost me 40 bucks ($10 for the tow plus $1 for every 100 feet before release- we went to 3000). Made three more flights that day- boxed the wake, more turns, etc... by the last flight of the day, I was doing pretty well. Paid $160 for less than 2 hours total... if it was a bigger club with hourly rates for glider and instructor, it would have been worse. But I was having so much fun I didn't care.
Second day was different- gusty xwind, so the first flight was all about learning to deal with that. But on the next flight,because the thermals were booming, the CFI suggested we try to work some lift. Normally, working thermals comes later, but it was too good a day to pass up. With him demonstrating for a few minutes, then handing the controls over, in a while we'd gained 1000 feet. Then we did some slow flight and stalls, then worked another thermal, etc, etc. We landed after about 1.5... that flight also cost me $40. Next time I flew, we made two flights, each about an hour in length. On the second one that day, we got to 5200 from a 3000-foot tow.
It was definitely looking better now from a cost perspective, but meanwhile I was just enjoying the challenge of dealing with all the little differences, and really getting excited about maximizing performance from an aircraft with no engine. Maximum time aloft requires very consistent coordinated flying, thinking ahead, reading the sky and other lift-producing signs... and from the moment of release, you are committed to an engine-out landing, which really wakes you up, to say the least. It basically adds a whole new dimension to flying, and certainly to flight training.
We don't really get into XC flying, and interestingly, you will find that to get the PPG, even without prior ratings, XC soaring is not a big requirement. You need to understand the basics of navigation and how to make decisions based on altitude, glide ratio, wind and lift or sink, but flying tasks, completing "badge fights" or competitive soaring is another plateau that rated pilots pursue without much scrutiny by the FAA. Nobody goes to that next level without instruction or guidance from those in the know, but the PPG checkride does not stress that part of things. Even working thermals is not a requirement. The practical is usually two or three flights: box the wake on tow, deal with a simulated rope break on climbout, do some stalls, steep turns, turns to headings, fly a good pattern and land within 200 feet of a designated spot. You might have to do all this with the altimeter and ASI covered. That's pretty much it.
In essence, glider flight is not easy, but it's very simple.

Anyway, I started 5 summers ago, and now I have the PP-G and commercial (we give rides to the general public, and the commercial-rated PIC gets a free tow), and if all goes well, this year I will get the FAA's blessing to instruct. I'm pretty proud of these milestones.
I've racked up some time in our single-seater, too... it's silly, I guess, but that's a big deal for me, because nobody can check you out in a single-seater. Heady stuff, flying something like that for the first time.

The social aspect of hanging around with the club on any given gliding day is a big plus, along with the rewarding challenge of making flying a team effort. If flying is only about going high and fast from A to B, it's not for you. But if you like all the other stuff, you'll love glider flying.

The only real problem for me has been making all the pieces (schedules, weather, etc) fall together often enough to make me happy and keep moving forward... but that is no different than with power, except for the fact that you always need at least one other person, for any kind of tow.

I hope you give it a chance. You might also learn more if you look here:


http://www.ssa.org/
 
Some early pilots just let the thermal or lift bumps steer the glider. That does not work.
:no: ...especially in the pattern (and even on the weakest days, there always seems to be lift in the pattern... :mad2: ).
It's true about basic mastery, when it comes to landings... glider pilots have to get to the initial point at the right altitude, fly a good pattern within fairly tight altitude and airspeed limits, and touch down (ideally) within a small area... without power... on every flight. It brings out the "real pilot" in you.
 
BTW, you can throw a considerable amount of money at gliders, just as you can at power planes.

I've told brand new students to plan on spending $3500-$4000 in the course of a year to get their rating. That includes club dues, cost of flying, books etc. we are a weekend only club. a power rating will easily cost twice that.

Add on ratings, about 1/2 that with the DPE fee. Weekends only, plan to fly at least one lesson every weekend, you can do it in 3-4 months if you are proficient in power walking in the door. If its been a few years since your last flight, it will take a little longer to get your air sense back.

We are a club, weekends only.

Edit: I should add that a "lesson" is about 1hr of air time. That may be one flight, 2-3 flights or 6 patterns. It depends on where you are in the lesson plan, and the weather.
 
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Bob Wander has a number of small, very nice pamphlets or booklets on various aspects of gliding. He is generally well regarded as an instructor. Take a look at his materials. They are inexpensive.
http://www.bobwander.com/

I did some of my glider training with Bob and used his materials. They're very good.

+1 on the value of the glider add-on. Very worthwhile and enjoyable. If you join a club, your power creds could be helpful by taking a turn at towing, which is also fun.
 
Be aware glider clubs run on indentured servitude and their is a lot of ground pounding involved with getting up in the air. For add-ons spending a week at a well run commercial operation is something to consider. YMMV some clubs are much better at getting folks through then others. With some it is impossible. Personally I say go to a commercial school knock out the rating in a few days then join the local club and get up to speed with the local fleet and conditions.
 
Be aware glider clubs run on indentured servitude and their is a lot of ground pounding involved with getting up in the air.
If by "indentured servitude" you mean nobody gets to just sit on their ass while the others do all the work recovering and preparing the glider for them, I'd have to agree with that description. Everybody has to do their share of recovering, inspecting and laying out the rope, fetching the glider from the LZ and either walking the wing or driving the tug to the staging area, running the wing on launches, etc.
Unless you're paying for these services, that's the way it is. But it's not a big deal.

The trouble with just paying to bang out the add-on is: what do you do with the rating afterwards? If you just want to earn the cert and shelve it, fine. But if you want to keep flying gliders, it's going to get costly unless you join a club.
 
The trouble with just paying to bang out the add-on is: what do you do with the rating afterwards? If you just want to earn the cert and shelve it, fine. But if you want to keep flying gliders, it's going to get costly unless you join a club.

Bang out the rating in a week, then join a club. Yes the club will make you do a bunch of dual to get in tune with their SOPs. When you are up to the club's standard start learning to soar. The learn to soar as you slog along over the years is bunk, get the ticket punched then learn. You could save years. I've seen folks spend a year of weekends trying to get finished up at clubs then go to a commercial operation in the end. I'm sure there are efficient clubs out there I just haven't seen one(out of half a dozen I've flown with.)
 
A club setting is really a labor of love. You have to really want it. Check out a local club, help out for a couple weekends, talk with the CFIs, and get a ride or three. In a club, the club itself, and the social interaction, can take priority over the rating. Know what you want and what you want to get out of it.
 
Thanks again for the info everyone.

Looks like Bob Wander has a book that holds the answers to my exact questions... i'll have to order it.

I don't really mind putting in some work at a club so long as I'm flying. Mandatory "work" days with no flying wouldn't sit really well with me as my time off is somewhat limited. Go fly for a bit and help the rest of the day? I'm more than happy to help.


Seems like the add on would probably cost me $2K... That's not terrible. A bit more than I had expected, but fine with me. The same thing would get me about 15 hours of boring holes in a spam can, and to be honest that's never really been my "thing."
 
I don't really mind putting in some work at a club so long as I'm flying. Mandatory "work" days with no flying wouldn't sit really well with me as my time off is somewhat limited. Go fly for a bit and help the rest of the day? I'm more than happy to help.
I wouldn't go near any club that expects you to come out and help and not get to fly that day! Ridiculous! :no: Maybe some clubs put newbies to work like that, but I wouldn't stand for it.


A more likely scenario is this: only three people show up: you, the CFI, and the tow pilot. Wind is light enough to "risk" launching the trainer without a wing runner, so that's enough people. Someone might help the tow pilot pull the towplane out of the hangar, then student and instructor go preflight and stage the glider and rope while the tow pilot does his preflight and maybe gets fuel.
In such a "skeleton crew" situation in our club, when the glider lands, the tow pilot will come over with the ATV (our tug) and drive it back to the staging area while the instructor and student walk the wing. These walks are very useful for the lesson debriefing, so it's not wasted time. And at least the tow pilot doesn't have to walk, even though he'd rather be relaxing in the shade under the EZ-Up. :D

As for sharing the "chores", it's worth noting that the more you learn about all of that stuff, the happier and safer your flights will be. In our club, the helpers are pilots, and vice versa...everyone develops a "big picture" of the whole operation, which enhances safety and efficiency. It's important, when in addition to the training aircraft, you have a tow plane (or winch), the rope, and a number of operations related to staging, launching, and recovering. All of these things have to be dealt with properly, every time, or things can get ugly.

The ratio of "servitude" to flying can vary: on days when more members show up, I might find myself doing a lot of the "chores", or I might get to relax while others do most of the work (but I still get to fly).

It is true that with most clubs (especially a small, loosely-organized outfit like ours), getting to the checkride can take a while. For me, it was very hit-or-miss... some days I'd have a CFI, glider,and towplane all to myself all day; some days I'd be lucky to get a flight in, because two or three other students showed up and only one of the two CFIs. And here in the NE, the weather can screw everything up pretty regularly. But I'm in no hurry, so it works well enough. My only frustrations are my crazy freelancer's schedule, and the weather... especially when wintertime basically shuts our club down. Neither of these factors have anything to do with the club's resources; with a commercial outfit, I'd probably have taken just as long to get to the check ride (although we did lose a couple spring months one season while we were restoring the trainer in an unheated hangar, and sometimes the tow plane was down for repairs or being annualed).
But if you and at least one tow pilot and instructor have normal jobs or are retired, there's no reason you can't bang out the rating in one season, or even less, in a small club such as ours. We typically meet on weekends, but weekday flying can be arranged.
So if you are still considering the club thing, look for the following (basically a list of our club's major selling points):

-A share of aircraft ownership as part of the fee for joining
-Flexible scheduling
-Free or discounted instruction
-No hourly rate for aircraft use
-More than one CFI and tow pilot
-A second ship, preferably another trainer, but maybe a single-seater that you can fly (after you solo) when the trainer is busy.
-Tow plane that is "in the family"... ours is leased back by the club treasurer... who is also our AP/IA
-AP/IA in the club

And here's some things we don't have that would be nice (and worth looking for when shopping around for a club):
-A proper "gliderport" setup, where the towplane can land with the rope and taxi into position ahead of the staged glider
-Enough active members to always have a chase crew ready for landouts... we also only have one trailer, for the single-seater. This inhibits more adventurous XC flying, although going with the towplane to tow the glider out of another airport is not unheard of
-More than one 2-seat glider
 
Bang out the rating in a week, then join a club. Yes the club will make you do a bunch of dual to get in tune with their SOPs. When you are up to the club's standard start learning to soar. The learn to soar as you slog along over the years is bunk, get the ticket punched then learn. You could save years. I've seen folks spend a year of weekends trying to get finished up at clubs then go to a commercial operation in the end. I'm sure there are efficient clubs out there I just haven't seen one(out of half a dozen I've flown with.)

We've had those "bang it out in a week" pilots come to our club and then got upset that we would not let them go solo. These "rated and qualified" pilots could not fly on tow in the bumpy summer thermals, let alone landing with the winds at 20+ knts 45-60 degrees off runway heading. Our solo students were not having problems.

Then those same newly rated pilots get upset when they are back in 15-20 minutes while we have to call the solo students back after an hour or more. No one taught those "bang it out in a week" pilots how to thermal and soar.

You can complete an add-on in our club in 3-4 months, but you best be there ready to fly every weekend. And as a rated airplane pilot, don't show up not having checked NOTAMs or the weather forecast and your homework for your next lesson not read and ready to discuss.

You keep banging on the club life as "servitude" and take forever to complete a rating. Well, you get out what you put in.

If you want to be waited on, make a scheduled lesson and not stick around for the ground work as another described. Then pay the commercial operator trying to make a living his due.

There are two sides to soaring, the air side, and the ground side. It only takes one to fly power, it takes a lot of people to soar, push gliders, hook up, run wings, fly tow, track the flights collect the $, and teach the next generation all those things.

It does not sound like that is your cup of tea, or coffee.

Just stop banging on clubs.
 
Clubs are great. For flying. For getting ratings not so much. I'm just being truthful about that part.
 
There is a big social component to nearly every club, and you ignore it at your peril. It can be a lot of fun and it can be exasperating.
 
:no: ...especially in the pattern (and even on the weakest days, there always seems to be lift in the pattern... :mad2: ).
It's true about basic mastery, when it comes to landings... glider pilots have to get to the initial point at the right altitude, fly a good pattern within fairly tight altitude and airspeed limits, and touch down (ideally) within a small area... without power... on every flight. It brings out the "real pilot" in you.

If I had spoilers on my taildragger I could do that every landing without breaking as sweat. But you're right, having an engine does make it marginally easier to arrive on final at the proper height and distance. The mitigating factor is that the viable margin for that is much greater in a glider than it is in most airplanes.
 
Clubs are great. For flying. For getting ratings not so much. I'm just being truthful about that part.
I think that really depends on the club. The Minnesota Soaring club does a great job with training new students, from scratch or transitioning. The club provides good instruction from very experienced and and enthusiastic pilots for free and the price structure for glider time and tows doesn't make it overly expensive for students either (at least that's the way it was when I was a member). Student's are also able to catch rides with certified pilots in the afternoon when soaring conditions are viable before and after they solo. The only downside is that the students (along with everyone else) are expected to spend a fair amount of time and effort helping with operations when they're not flying.
 
Good luck with the glider flying. It's the best kind of flying of all. Hope you get hooked and move on to most challenging aspect of it - cross country. It's all good!

I went the club route and had a great experience until I didn't. In the end, I became an owner so that I could fly cross country and ultimately get into racing.

Bill "always a glider pilot who also drove a Maule and now drives an RV10" Watson
 
I did a bit of glider flying, but never finished the rating. The point that you made and may not be obvious to others is that there is a big difference between flying a glider and being a sailplane pilot. The rating will teach you to get up and down in one piece. Maybe you'll get an introduction to soaring. This is when the real learning and the real fun starts. Finding and staying up in lift is part art and part science. It is the heart and soul of making a sailplane pilot. There is much to learn after you get the rating. A club environment is great to follow on with. Gliders are a group effort to fly. It's the reason why you see so many clubs dedicated to soaring.



We've had those "bang it out in a week" pilots come to our club and then got upset that we would not let them go solo. These "rated and qualified" pilots could not fly on tow in the bumpy summer thermals, let alone landing with the winds at 20+ knts 45-60 degrees off runway heading. Our solo students were not having problems.

Then those same newly rated pilots get upset when they are back in 15-20 minutes while we have to call the solo students back after an hour or more. No one taught those "bang it out in a week" pilots how to thermal and soar.

You can complete an add-on in our club in 3-4 months, but you best be there ready to fly every weekend. And as a rated airplane pilot, don't show up not having checked NOTAMs or the weather forecast and your homework for your next lesson not read and ready to discuss.

You keep banging on the club life as "servitude" and take forever to complete a rating. Well, you get out what you put in.

If you want to be waited on, make a scheduled lesson and not stick around for the ground work as another described. Then pay the commercial operator trying to make a living his due.

There are two sides to soaring, the air side, and the ground side. It only takes one to fly power, it takes a lot of people to soar, push gliders, hook up, run wings, fly tow, track the flights collect the $, and teach the next generation all those things.

It does not sound like that is your cup of tea, or coffee.

Just stop banging on clubs.
 
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