Gift for CFI?

SkyHog said:
How about $0/hr. Look up just a bit for Real Estate Agents.

Or how about a CDL Instructor (actually a tougher job due to the fact that you're dealing with much tighter confinements and more precision - think feet vs. tens of feet). Their hourly rate is generally much less, and more importantly, you can get the entire license for less than the CFI's costs alone for a private cost.
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CDL Instructor: "-Think feet vs. tens of feet" ??? Are you kidding? That's a good one.

Think wheels on the ground and can stop & go and with brakes and mirrors vs. twice the speed or more in the mushy air with wind....
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
CDL Instructor: "-Think feet vs. tens of feet" ??? Are you kidding? That's a good one.

Think wheels on the ground and can stop & go and with brakes and mirrors vs. twice the speed or more in the mushy air with wind....
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Two dimensions vs three dimensions - I think the latter requires some greater expertise, and command higher pay.
 
I've been reading this thread the last couple days. At this point it seems like Nick is just sticking to his guns on this, logic be damned.
 
I should be making 7 figures. I've got a family to feed, and dammit, what I do is way more important than those pesky CEOs out there!
 
SkyHog said:
I should be making 7 figures. I've got a family to feed, and dammit, what I do is way more important than those pesky CEOs out there!
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Yes because an instructor trying to make $50k per year while working 7 days a week without benefits is trying to be greedy....

Most of them around here make half of that $50k and are "at the office" more in a day then 95% of most office folks.
 
jesse said:
Yes because an instructor trying to make $50k per year while working 7 days a week without benefits is trying to be greedy....

Most of them around here make half of that $50k and are "at the office" more in a day then 95% of most office folks.
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FWIW, working at McDonalds often requires a significant time commitment, and a lot of very, very hard and demeaning work.

Working hard doesn't always mean you make more money. Its the unfortunate reality in life. If we used "difficulty in work" as the litmus for money earned, then construction workers and store clerks would be the wealthiest citizens in the United States.
 
SkyHog said:
I should be making 7 figures. I've got a family to feed, and dammit, what I do is way more important than those pesky CEOs out there!
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Technically, the CEO is feeding you and your family via a portion of his profits... or whatever he got investors to give.

The analogy works a little better with single proprietorships vs the companies who've figured out how to game the legalized gambling system down on Wall St. ;)
 
SkyHog said:
FWIW, working at McDonalds often requires a significant time commitment, and a lot of very, very hard and demeaning work.

Working hard doesn't always mean you make more money. Its the unfortunate reality in life. If we used "difficulty in work" as the litmus for money earned, then construction workers and store clerks would be the wealthiest citizens in the United States.
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Barrier of entry to being a flight instructor versus a McDonalds employee or a entry-level-no-education-contruction worker is slightly different. Rather strict medical requirements, at least $35,000 or more in training paid out of pocket, and the fact that not everyone can do it effectively.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore Nick. I think anyone deserves to try and make however much money they want. If that means an instructor wants to make a 50k income or even double that, more power to them. If they're good they'll find the business.

First you were convinced instructors didn't work hard and therefore didn't deserve money. Now that you've lost that battle you just say regardless of how hard they work they don't deserve the money.

Tell me, as one like yourself, that works hard, in IT, why do you deserve the money you're getting paid? There are plenty of fast food workers that work harder than you do.
 
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jesse said:
...Tell me, as one like yourself, that works hard, in IT, why do you deserve the money you're getting paid? There are plenty of fast food workers that work harder than you do.
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From my experience, the words "working hard" and "in IT" are mutually exclusive.

:yes:


Mike
 
jesse said:
Barrier of entry to being a flight instructor versus a McDonalds employee or a entry-level-no-education-contruction worker is slightly different. Rather strict medical requirements, at least $35,000 or more in training paid out of pocket, and the fact that not everyone can do it effectively.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore Nick. I think anyone deserves to try and make however much money they want. If that means an instructor wants to make a 50k income or even double that, more power to them. If they're good they'll find the business.

First you were convinced instructors didn't work hard and therefore didn't deserve money. Now that you've lost that battle you just say regardless of how hard they work they don't deserve the money.

Tell me, as one like yourself, that works hard, in IT, why do you deserve the money you're getting paid? There are plenty of fast food workers that work harder than you do.
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You're confusing my argument with my supporting facts. The argument is that CFIs don't need to be given tips because they already make a LOT of money per hour.

The discussion around "They work hard for the money," is unrelated, as I illustrated by saying that working hard does not always equate to more money. I also believe you brought that into the discussion.

End of day - its a free society, where one will pay the going price for service, so while I feel that having 170 pounds of ballast in the seat next to me giving me bad advice, lying to me, and repeating falsehoods that his CFI taught him is not worth $50/hr, other people do - and they have the right to do so.

Me - I'll just keep looking for lowest bidder like I do when I buy something at Walmart, because end of day, I'm getting the exact same thing out of the CFI.

Again - this is all moot if its one of the 10 CFIs that are actually good at what they do, like Tony is (and knowing you from your lowly PP/ASEL days, you probably too). There's just so many CFIs that don't know **** and actually make things worse for those of us that do.

All of this, btw, is illustrated by the fact that there are fewer and fewer students today. I think its because flying is so damned expensive. CFIs overvaluing themselves is certainly not helping, but hey, if y'all want to group together and collude your prices out of your customers range, by all means, ruin it for everyone.

edit: And, BTW, I do work hard for my money, evidenced through the hours I work and the effort that I put into what I do - its called work ethic, and it does seem to be lacking in almost every professional job I've had so far. But push comes to shove, I don't think I'm worth what I make either. The market supports my pay, so I suppose its a similar point...but at the end of the day, no one tips me for successfully managing a major software or hardware release though.
 
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'Gave my CFI a very nice, serious, pocket flashlight. Not your auto-parts store counter check-out type, but a serious "flashaholics" light. A perfect tool for carrying all the time, doing pre-flights, etc. A single AA or CR123 with recent LED is sweet, and very useful. Maybe $40 or so.
 
SkyHog said:
...considering that the task set associated with a CFI is only slightly more complex than that of a math tutor, and only more complex because a math tutor doesn't need to show you how to hold the pencil.
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Except most people don't die if they screw up a math problem.
 
SkyHog said:
Neither do pilots or CFIs
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I've sure saved a lot of airplanes from getting bent, and I know I've engrained very deep habits into many of my students that will hopefully serve them well.

The student instructor relationship is not one where you are simply hiring someone to take your garbage out. I explain to people from day one that this is a partnership and we must both treat each other equally for it to be successful. Deviations from that will cause me to walk away in a heartbeat but I have no problems getting students. Way more calling me then I could possibly ever fly with.

I'm not saying that one should tip an instructor but considering how you generally build a strong friendship out of training a gift at the end for getting them to their dream is a nice touch. I certainly don't expect it.
 
I bought one of my CFI's a model (cost about $200 or so...a very nice one..) of his favorite aircraft. An outstanding CFI should make way more than they do and way more than I afford to pay them. Also, I am guessing that they would enjoy a gift certificate to one of the more notable pilot shops...
I worked raft guiding for years and I would often get tips from clients who felt we went above and beyond. And the vast majority of CFI's that I have interacted with have very much gone above and beyond so I have no doubt that I nice tip is very much in line....
 
I had no idea that people were tipping their instructors. I'm not taking a position on whether it is or isn't appropriate or deserved - it just didn't occur to me. I do, however, pay promptly and make sure that my checks don't bounce!
 
MikeELP said:
From my experience, the words "working hard" and "in IT" are mutually exclusive.
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Depends on the shop. I wouldn't call it physically taxing except on big server move days every ten years or so, but the hours blow. Karen doesn't even stop snoring when the cell phone rings at all hours of the night. Been like that for close to 20 years now.

This week was "normal" with multiple nights working after 10 PM, one morning at 01:00 - 03:00 and three pre-05:00 "emergency" call outs for on-call assistance.

Tonight alone it was stop working at 17:00, get called and emailed at 19:00, work until 19:30, drive to Pho place for dinner, get called at 21:00 with a massive outage, fix that from iPad in the restaraunt parking lot, drive home listening to cleanup conference call until 22:30, realize I forgot an errand in town and turn around and drive 15 miles back to the errand, and head back home.

I'm the 90s the leash was a pager, 2000's a cell phone, 2010's a smartphone and email along with cell calls. It hasn't changed in all that time.
 
LJS1993 said:
So let me get this straight. Giving your CFI a big hug after passing a check ride is not an acceptable tip?
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I'd hug Jesse but he might not like it. ;) ;) ;)

Of course, it was cold enough in Nebraska in December 2012, we might just have been trying not to freeze to death. Haha. ;)
 
Haven't read the thread, just the title, but...

Seems to me the best gift you could give your CFI is passing the checkride.
 
Eagle I said:
I'm scheduled to take my checkride soon. I was just wondering, is it appropriate to send my CFI a gift (assuming I pass!) and if so, what kind of gifts do people normally give? I was thinking of a gift certificate to Sporty's or some other pilot-supply store, for instance. I really want to acknowledge my CFI's efforts in helping me obtain my certificate (assuming I get it!:D) and was just looking for some guidance as to what's typical/appropriate.
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I bought my CFI a set of Whelen LED landing/taxi lights for his Aztec. It was much appreciated. =)

He's practically a member of the family now, though. Hurray for Part 61 schools. ^_^
 
It's funny how this thread has turned into more of a battle for CFI worth than the actual intent of a student appreciating his CFI and trying to find a way to say thanks. To him, it is never wrong to say thank you for a service you feel was above your expectations no matter what kind of service it was. I've never gotten tips from students and never expected any. The biggest thanks you could say to me is passing your checkride and coming back for your flight reviews and rental checkouts. I did have a student take me to lunch to say thank you for a challenging solo and I've gotten tips from discovery flights but I've never felt entitled. If you feel like your instructor was worth it to you, which is awesome, what do you think would be a fair/reasonable way to say so? Many students have done simple things like take their instructors out for a beer, lunch, etc although I did hear of a lucky CFI that got an iPad! You don't have to do anything like that, just make it meaningful...and like someone mentioned earlier, useful. It's like christmas shopping for a significant other. When else have you sat in close proximity to another human in a metal tube for 40 hours?! Think back to hobbies or things that he/she likes.


Now to add my .02 to the other argument. I see both sides to this argument from not only a students perspective but also a CFI that worked for a company and having to compete with another company over students. As a student, you have to define what you you want. We have two main flight schools here. I've met many of the instructors with the competition. I would trust my students in a heartbeat with the ones that I know and dont think they would get any less of a quality of instruction as I would. My rate is $54, theirs is usually in between the $30-40 range. Who would a student go for if they didnt have anything else to compare? The $30-40 range of course. Jesse's analysis of the CFI's day breakdown was spot on. I personally think those guys are worth way more than they advertise but the problem is people have a hard time paying for it. Why then did we still have students come through our program? Because we made it worth it to them with established facilities, newer airplanes, insurance, payment programs, etc. It's like buying a car in my opinion, there are many options for you but you have to figure out what you want. Either one will get you from point A to point B. Thats why a smart person will look at all their options and not pick one place just because they're cheap or the other just because they have a shiny plane. Why also did we charge $54 an hour? Because it costs something to rent facilities, pay higher maintenance fees, pay for instructor insurance etc. I'm not a manager and I can't point out every penny but there's a reason.

Now because of all that, my pay was $18 an hour per hobbs and what I felt was appropriate pre/post which was almost twice more than my CFI made at my college and I was in shock at that much when I was hired. Many CFIs lost their jobs every summer when the college kids would go home. Thankfully I didn't have that problem. I am, however, a college graduate. I can brag that I have a bachelor's in Aviation Science from Oklahoma State but with that comes a huge drawback. When I graduated I had over $150k in debt, that is not something I like bragging about but it needs to be stated because I am not the only one. With that came $1,000 college payments every month. My first year of instructing alone, I made about $19k. There was no way I could survive so I got a second job and eventually picked up charter. This is a common thing as we all know. This however, is not the student's fault and an honest CFI will not overcharge for services they did not do. You have to look at the other side though. As a CFI, I'm available 24/7. If a student needs something whether they have just started studying for their written exam or is a private pilot stuck in timbucktoo and need weather advice, I tell them to call me because that is my personality...not just my job. I was required to be at the airport from 8-5 every day but many times earlier and much later and I worked all weekend almost every weekend and still loved what I do. So yes I see how the math is a struggle with students. Do I believe instructors are worth what they are paid? It depends on the instructor but for me and every instructor I've met at Lincoln, yes we are worth every penny for the time, effort, and personal expense we have put into what we do and we still put our hearts and lives into making your learning experience the best we possibly can. You don't need to tip me, just appreciate it and respect what it entails.
 
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I gave mine a really nice bottle of Tequila the day I got my ticket.
 
Man!
Underpaid or over paid doesn't matter.
I pay my guy $40/ hour. I would have paid him $80 if that was the going rate.

That is a tiny price to pay for something I have dreamed of doing for over 30 years.
What a weird attitude to say "I'm not going to tip (thank you essentially) because I feel you make too much money"

My checkride will likely be in the next couple weeks and I will gladly tip, gift, whatever the person that enabled me to do something I have dreamed of since I was a child.
 
SkyHog said:
For clarifications sake - I am a pilot, I do have my PPL, but I do not have my CFI. The problem is that by adding the word "Airplane" to anything, the cost immediately doubles or triples, which I think is flat out inappropriate, especially when considering that the task set associated with a CFI is only slightly more complex than that of a math tutor, and only more complex because a math tutor doesn't need to show you how to hold the pencil.

Also - the argument of "CFIs need to make a living," is a non-starter. I can't go to my boss and demand a raise on a 6 figure salary because "Its not enough to live on," so why would a CFI get to make a similar argument on a livable wage that far exceeds minimum wage?

Airplanes, being much less complex than cars, should cost less. CFIs, being much less complex than music instructors, should charge less.

But hey - if you want to reinforce in your head that you're worth every penny you make as a CFI (and much, much more because you're "under" paid), then go right ahead - hell, you should make as much as a CEO, because CEOs won't die if their employees make a mistake right?

:rolleyes:
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When I was a full time CFI I worked a minimum of 6 days a week for 22 months from first day of instructing to first day at a job other than instructing. I averaged about 60 hours a week working. During that period of time I logged 500 hours flying...all of which was not teaching(that means paid Nick). I was paid a gross wage of 24320 for the 22 months.

Yes nick your statements are so ignorant I actually looked up my pay stubs to give you real numbers. Not some guess from a guy thats never done the job.

In reference to your further ignorance to it being the instructors fault because they are not capable of negotiating a better wage.. I'll tell you how that goes.

Instructor: I just got my CFII MEI i have a degree in XXX are you hiring?

Chief Pilot: yes. We pay 15 dollars an hour to the instructor for every hour you bill. No benefits and we pay on a 1099. Let me know when you can start.

There is no negotiation Nick...Some smart ones will do it for free..

I'll tell you a little secret about aviation. There has never been nor will there ever be a pilot shortage. The first day of manned powered flight there was one airplane, one seat and two pilots. Not much has changed. Hard to negotiate in that market, especially when you have no real experience and are looking for your first shot at a pay check.

I never complained, nor did I ever expect anyone to kiss my butt because I taught people to fly airplanes. I was not, however, overpaid and I'm pretty confident the industry takes advantage of people starting their career by paying unnecessary low wages. The aviation industry is not the only guilty of it.

Also your argument that driving instructors should be paid more is in my experience a fact. I have two relatives that teach people to drive. One is an independent performance driving instructor that works only on the track.....six figure income. The other one is a driving instructor teaching kids going through drivers education. He makes about 50k a year.

So Nick while I don't want or need your validation of my life and career choices I most certainly will not abide your ignorant drivel about how awesome I had it working as a full time CFI. I am now to the point where my career is returning on my investment. I enjoyed teaching and still do it on a part time basis. I certainly will not do it for anything less than 40 dollars an hour. And that is still less than my uncle charges for driving lessons.
 
Eagle I said:
I'm scheduled to take my checkride soon. I was just wondering, is it appropriate to send my CFI a gift (assuming I pass!) and if so, what kind of gifts do people normally give? I was thinking of a gift certificate to Sporty's or some other pilot-supply store, for instance. I really want to acknowledge my CFI's efforts in helping me obtain my certificate (assuming I get it!:D) and was just looking for some guidance as to what's typical/appropriate.
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I gave my CFI a bottle of Maker's Mark when I got my ticket. His favorite brand! :goofy:
 
Tarheelpilot said:
When I was a full time CFI I worked a minimum of 6 days a week for 22 months from first day of instructing to first day at a job other than instructing. I averaged about 60 hours a week working. During that period of time I logged 500 hours flying...all of which was not teaching(that means paid Nick). I was paid a gross wage of 24320 for the 22 months.

Yes nick your statements are so ignorant I actually looked up my pay stubs to give you real numbers. Not some guess from a guy thats never done the job.

In reference to your further ignorance to it being the instructors fault because they are not capable of negotiating a better wage.. I'll tell you how that goes.

Instructor: I just got my CFII MEI i have a degree in XXX are you hiring?

Chief Pilot: yes. We pay 15 dollars an hour to the instructor for every hour you bill. No benefits and we pay on a 1099. Let me know when you can start.

There is no negotiation Nick...Some smart ones will do it for free..

I'll tell you a little secret about aviation. There has never been nor will there ever be a pilot shortage. The first day of manned powered flight there was one airplane, one seat and two pilots. Not much has changed. Hard to negotiate in that market, especially when you have no real experience and are looking for your first shot at a pay check.

I never complained, nor did I ever expect anyone to kiss my butt because I taught people to fly airplanes. I was not, however, overpaid and I'm pretty confident the industry takes advantage of people starting their career by paying unnecessary low wages. The aviation industry is not the only guilty of it.

Also your argument that driving instructors should be paid more is in my experience a fact. I have two relatives that teach people to drive. One is an independent performance driving instructor that works only on the track.....six figure income. The other one is a driving instructor teaching kids going through drivers education. He makes about 50k a year.

So Nick while I don't want or need your validation of my life and career choices I most certainly will not abide your ignorant drivel about how awesome I had it working as a full time CFI. I am now to the point where my career is returning on my investment. I enjoyed teaching and still do it on a part time basis. I certainly will not do it for anything less than 40 dollars an hour. And that is still less than my uncle charges for driving lessons.
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It is stories such as yours that makes me reluctant to encourage students to tip instructors. Once flight schools can justify young CFIs in tips only positions, that's where 100% of the compensation will come from.

As a CFI, I do not expect tips, although they are appreciated.
 
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I still use my CFI for transition training for my mooney, and if we do a hamburger run, I pick up the dinner tab.
 
This tread sort of indicates what I think is wrong with tipping CFI's. I am not against taking a CFI to lunch now and again or giving him a thank you gift at the end, I did both with both of my CFI's.

However, Reading this thread there seems to be a great deal of entitlement and expectation despite some saying they do not expect tips. To the point of name calling to those who are in opposition to tipping. It reminds me of a waiter from a fancy NYC restaurant bad mouthing his guests for not tipping 30% in an upscale restaurant like he worked and saying they should stay home if they couldn't afford the tip. I wondered if the resturant owner felt that way. Entitlement is a bad thing and it works its way into our lives in every little way.

If some guy goes out and spends $120k because he got duped into an Embry Riddle or $33k getting a CFI that is on him. Just like all the graduating MBA's waiting tables; lawyers who cannot find work now but have $200k student loans. Not relevant to the situation.

My concern with it is that we go from not being expected/required to tip to occasionally tipping, to some tipping, and then we go from a nice gift after passing the check ride to tipping after certain thresholds like solo, xcountry and the like. Next thing you know we push it a bit further and it be comes tipping after every successful flight. Then you get that one CFI who like the NYC waiter thinks that you owe him a tip and by god he is going to make your life miserable if you can't pony up his tribute.

Well that is not acceptable and approaches a bribe or feeling like you have to do something you might not want to do.

Tipping is for non professionals like waitresses, taxi drivers and such. I'm not saying not to tip your professional CFI but its a bad idea to let it become expected and it is counter to the concept of professional. I wonder what the FAA thinks on the matter?
 
Eagle I said:
I'm scheduled to take my checkride soon. I was just wondering, is it appropriate to send my CFI a gift (assuming I pass!) and if so, what kind of gifts do people normally give? I was thinking of a gift certificate to Sporty's or some other pilot-supply store, for instance. I really want to acknowledge my CFI's efforts in helping me obtain my certificate (assuming I get it!:D) and was just looking for some guidance as to what's typical/appropriate.
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I think it is absolutely acceptable to provide a gift / cash for service especially if the service/ experience was stellar. For a CFI, I would probably give cash. The amount given is what you feel it's worth and can afford.
 
I have bought my CFI several gifts that he appreciates, over the years. No tips though.
 
I'm going to get my CFI something when I pass the checkride...not sure what yet. I'll definitely take him out to eat - maybe a nice steak or something...
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
This tread sort of indicates what I think is wrong with tipping CFI's. I am not against taking a CFI to lunch now and again or giving him a thank you gift at the end, I did both with both of my CFI's.

However, Reading this thread there seems to be a great deal of entitlement and expectation despite some saying they do not expect tips. To the point of name calling to those who are in opposition to tipping. It reminds me of a waiter from a fancy NYC restaurant bad mouthing his guests for not tipping 30% in an upscale restaurant like he worked and saying they should stay home if they couldn't afford the tip. I wondered if the resturant owner felt that way. Entitlement is a bad thing and it works its way into our lives in every little way.

If some guy goes out and spends $120k because he got duped into an Embry Riddle or $33k getting a CFI that is on him. Just like all the graduating MBA's waiting tables; lawyers who cannot find work now but have $200k student loans. Not relevant to the situation.

My concern with it is that we go from not being expected/required to tip to occasionally tipping, to some tipping, and then we go from a nice gift after passing the check ride to tipping after certain thresholds like solo, xcountry and the like. Next thing you know we push it a bit further and it be comes tipping after every successful flight. Then you get that one CFI who like the NYC waiter thinks that you owe him a tip and by god he is going to make your life miserable if you can't pony up his tribute.

Well that is not acceptable and approaches a bribe or feeling like you have to do something you might not want to do.

Tipping is for non professionals like waitresses, taxi drivers and such. I'm not saying not to tip your professional CFI but its a bad idea to let it become expected and it is counter to the concept of professional. I wonder what the FAA thinks on the matter?
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Couldn't agree more Tony. When working as a pilot, regardless of the role, I do not expect a tip and have in fact turned them down a few times.

What I don't agree with is someone like Mr. Nick telling me I was paid a wonderful hourly wage while teaching full time not to mention he seems to think there are only 10 flight instructors in the whole country that are anything more than ballast. I know without a doubt I was underpaid for the professional (not FAA required ballast) services I was providing.

Barely making more than 1k a month is not a lot of money no matter what you are doing. That said no one ever owed me a tip. I knew what I was going to make as a CFI and I made the choice to take the job. That has nothing to do with my students and I never discussed my pay, nor my opinion of it with my students. I consider discussing compensation with clients to be unprofessional.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Man!
Underpaid or over paid doesn't matter.
I pay my guy $40/ hour. I would have paid him $80 if that was the going rate.

That is a tiny price to pay for something I have dreamed of doing for over 30 years.
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Well said! You can't put a pricetag on achieving a lifelong dream!

Just an update since I first posed my question. I have given my CFI the best gift, as one poster suggested, by passing my checkride. But I also gave him a gift card, good at many restaurants and shops around town, that was not worth a huge amount of money, but enough so that he and his wife could go have a nice dinner, or he could buy himself something that might otherwise seem too frivolous. He seemed touched and appreciative of the gesture, and I had to wonder, based on some of the comments in this thread, how often he receives such gifts. But he seems like the sort of teacher who would consider the joy of helping someone achieve his or her dream its own reward. I wish there were many more like him.
 
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