Getting ready to line up and wait?

Matthew said:
I wonder how long until I get a real live "line up and wait"?
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I got one the day before yesterday... OK, so it was in Canada. The first couple times you hear it it will sound weird but after that it will be second nature, that is unless you are determined to resist. But resistance is futile. :D
 
I actually got "position and hold" recently at... I think it was KDET.
 
Makes no never you mind to me how they word it, either way, I DON'T...
I make a 45 degree roll forward and stop so I can hopefully see the guy that is coming in no radio with oil streaming off his windscreen...
I like controllers and all that, but they are not the one sitting directly between two tinfoil cans loaded with a hundred gallons of the finest fire accelerant known to man, while someone is barreling down on me from my blind side

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
Makes no never you mind to me how they word it, either way, I DON'T...
I make a 45 degree roll forward and stop so I can hopefully see the guy that is coming in no radio with oil streaming off his windscreen...
I like controllers and all that, but they are not the one sitting directly between two tinfoil cans loaded with a hundred gallons of the finest fire accelerant known to man, while someone is barreling down on me from my blind side

denny-o
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Agreed. The FAA training I linked to above actually recommends that smaller aircraft turn on ALL your lights and position the aircraft on the runway in such a way that all your lights are directed AT THE TOWER when possible, while off-center on the runway centerline (so as to be more visible and not blend in to runway centerline markings/lighting for approaching / landing aircraft). They also say to pay close attention to ALL radio transmissions, not just those directed at you, and watch the time--call the tower if you don't hear from them in two minutes (I don't think I could wait longer than 60 seconds, but two minutes is what the FAA says).

Here's the picture they post in that training, of what happened to one airplane that got hit from behind while holding in position. Graphic reminder of Denny's point:

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It's four syllables instead of nine, too. > 50% reduction

(Line up and wait vs. Taxi into position and hold)
 
TangoWhiskey said:
It's four syllables instead of nine, too. > 50% reduction

(Line up and wait vs. Taxi into position and hold)
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Actually, it's four syllables instead of five. 20% reduction

(Line up and wait vs. position and hold)
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, it's four syllables instead of five. 20% reduction

(Line up and wait vs. position and hold)
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Sorry, I was using the FAA's term for it in the written materials, not the controller's phraseology. LUAW vs TIPH. "Position and Hold" is just the "PH" part of TIPH:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7c8f32f65b860aba

P.S.--A little research showed that controller phraseology was originally phrased "taxi into position and hold" (thus the TIPH acronym), but it was changed with a January 2003 revision (reference) to the shorter "position and hold" to reduce frequency congestion and to reduce confusion for foreign pilots between the FAA phrase "taxi into position and hold" and the ICAO phrase "Taxi into holding position".

Does the ICAO phrase "Taxi into holding position" still exist? If so, how does it differ in meaning to "line up and wait"? Or did the latter come about after January 2003?
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
Sorry, I was using the FAA's term for it in the written materials, not the controller's phraseology. LUAW vs TIPH. "Position and Hold" is just the "PH" part of TIPH:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7c8f32f65b860aba

P.S.--A little research showed that controller phraseology was originally phrased "taxi into position and hold" (thus the TIPH acronym), but it was changed with a January 2003 revision (reference) to the shorter "position and hold" to reduce frequency congestion and to reduce confusion for foreign pilots between the FAA phrase "taxi into position and hold" and the ICAO phrase "Taxi into holding position".

Does the ICAO phrase "Taxi into holding position" still exist? If so, how does it differ in meaning to "line up and wait"? Or did the latter come about after January 2003?
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It's "Taxi to holding position".
 
I lined up and waited today. No big deal!! KHPN even had "Line up and Wait terminology is now in effect" on the ATIS.

-Skip
 
Ditto on both. Well, in the US anyway.

Skip Miller said:
I lined up and waited today. No big deal!! KHPN even had "Line up and Wait terminology is now in effect" on the ATIS.

-Skip
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I executed LUaW today at KABQ, lined up behind a landing Frontier A320, cleared for takeoff when jet exited the runway. Walls were plastered with LUaW warnings in FBO for some reason but no AWOS time-waster thank heavens.
-- Pete
 
I got "line up and wait" yesterday. When reporting ready for takeoff I had asked the busy controller whether he would have enough time for me to pause on the runway for a moment before takeoff. It was my intention to begin my IFR training flight by taking off with foggles on and needed to get lined up very well and centering the heading indicator on the runway ID, before donning the device. He gave me the "line up and wait", allowed a few seconds, then "cleared for take off". BTW, instructor said I rolled straight down the centerline.

There was another instance at the same airport where a pilot called that he was "position and hold" waiting for clearance when the controller told him the correct terminology, then said that he had already been cleared for takeoff.
 
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SCCutler said:
Unlike "line up and wait," the metric system makes complete and compelling sense.
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And if you work in healthcare, its pretty much the law of the land. You may tell the staff what your weight is in pounds, but we convert it to Kilo's.. we dose meds in grams, and we deal with flows and volumes in liters...

I suspect much of the engineering/physics world is similar.
 
Think about it.

"Taxi into position and Hold" shares several keywords with other types of clearances or instructions (like taxi clearances, hold short instructions, and others).
It seems readily apparent that two diametrically opposed instructions ("HOLD short or Runway 24" and "Taxi into position and HOLD") share keywords. Plus, taxi clearances share keywords with position and hold instructions, add a tail number confusion and you have a runway incursion.

"Line up and Wait" shares no common keywords with other clearances or instructions. That seems to be self-evidently a good thing.
 
Doggtyred said:
And if you work in healthcare, its pretty much the law of the land. You may tell the staff what your weight is in pounds, but we convert it to Kilo's.. we dose meds in grams, and we deal with flows and volumes in liters...

I suspect much of the engineering/physics world is similar.
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I like the metric system. My weight in kilograms is awesome.
 
line:
a number of persons standing one behind the other and waiting their turns at or for something; queue.

So who am I lining up behind?

Again, the rest of the world is full of idiots.
 
I did hear of an incident that "line up and wait" will correct.

A US pilot in Europe, taxiing to the active runway, was told "hold your position". He had a brain-fart and thought the instruction was "position and hold" and turned onto the runway in front of landing traffic (which successfully went around with nothing more than fresh underwear required).

"Line up and Wait" eliminates that possible ambiguity.
 
EdFred said:
line:
a number of persons standing one behind the other and waiting their turns at or for something; queue.

So who am I lining up behind?

Again, the rest of the world is full of idiots.
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The rest of the world is full of people whose first language is NOT English. I don't know how "Line up and wait" became the ICAO standard, but if it keeps the rest of the world from being confused about the clearance I am for it.

In the mean time, just get over it already.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
In the mean time, just get over it already.
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Ummmmm.......no. ;)

I thought we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago because we didn't like the way the rest of the world did things. Now look at us. It's like we're married and can't stand up to our wives and say no.
 
EdFred said:
Ummmmm.......no. ;)
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Your choice, I guess. But the complaining about it does tend to get old. ;)

I thought we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago because we didn't like the way the rest of the world did things. Now look at us. It's like we're married and can't stand up to our wives and say no.
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That is fine if you want to be an isolationist, but we do have to live in and with the rest of the world.
 
It isn't line up behind someone as in queue - it's line up in the center ready to go when it's your turn - Not a big deal as far as I can see and if the difference between the words used is such that it avoids confusion w/ other instructions then well, ICAO and compliance... going along or whatever it is then actually, maybe it's just a good choice to make the clearances stand out for each different need.
 
We're lucky we're not saying, "Mettez-vous en rang et attendre". That's probably mangled because it came from an on-line English-French translator but I you get the idea. Aviation was and is not a strictly English-speaking endeavor. I'm not sure how the official language became English.
 
Everskyward said:
We're lucky we're not saying, "Mettez-vous en rang et attendre". That's probably mangled because it came from an on-line English-French translator but I you get the idea. Aviation was and is not a strictly English-speaking endeavor. I'm not sure how the official language became English.
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The only way that would ever happen is if the French actually fought back. :D
 
Everskyward said:
We're lucky we're not saying, "Mettez-vous en rang et attendre". That's probably mangled because it came from an on-line English-French translator but I you get the idea. Aviation was and is not a strictly English-speaking endeavor. I'm not sure how the official language became English.
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English is taught as a second language in most schools around the world. In the US, we're lucky we can pass English, let alone a second language. More people probably speak English than any other language.
My second language is ASSEMBLER. I'm not fluent in it, but I can read it well enough. If asked to build a phrase, I might be able to without crashing the machine.
 
I think it's dumb. Line up?? Where? Wait?? At the hold line? I'm already doing that. Line up makes me think, hmm, I need to get in line. Position makes me think about being active, get into position.

Nobody asked me though. As usual.:incazzato:

That being said, tonight on the D-ATIS at TF Green I heard something that made me chuckle -- "Line up and wait radio-ology in use." Radio-ology??? Isn't that a medical specialty?????

Maybe they should have typed in "terminology?":rolleyes2::idea::thumbsup:
 
silver-eagle said:
English is taught as a second language in most schools around the world. In the US, we're lucky we can pass English, let alone a second language. More people probably speak English than any other language.
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I don't think learning a language in school prepares you to converse in any more than the simplest phrases. I took 3 years (I think) of French and I could not hold a conversation. I remember that "attendre" is "wait", though. When I hear French on the radio in Quebec I can only make out the numbers... sometimes. I went to Japan recently where I hear they take quite a bit of English in school but I found that while the people in the hotel and the handlers knew English most people didn't understand much at all. That was actually surprising to me.
 
Everskyward said:
We're lucky we're not saying, "Mettez-vous en rang et attendre". That's probably mangled because it came from an on-line English-French translator but I you get the idea. Aviation was and is not a strictly English-speaking endeavor. I'm not sure how the official language became English.
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But thankfully there are no French terms or names in aviation any longer. :D
 
PilotAlan said:
Think about it.

"Taxi into position and Hold" shares several keywords with other types of clearances or instructions (like taxi clearances, hold short instructions, and others).
It seems readily apparent that two diametrically opposed instructions ("HOLD short or Runway 24" and "Taxi into position and HOLD") share keywords. Plus, taxi clearances share keywords with position and hold instructions, add a tail number confusion and you have a runway incursion.

"Line up and Wait" shares no common keywords with other clearances or instructions. That seems to be self-evidently a good thing.
Click to expand...

"Taxi into position and Hold" was replaced with "Position and Hold" years ago, there's nothing shared with taxi clearances.
 
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