Getting over ascent weirdness

[manlymatt83]

I'm post solo and doing pretty well, in the cross country phase now. But for some reason I'm still having trouble with takeoff. Pattern altitude and landings feel great, and I'm confident in those. But for some reason, takeoff still feels really weird:

• I head down the runway applying right rudder pressure and rotate at 55 - no problem.
• I climb out at 75 which seems to make me feel like I'm pitched up pretty high. I've learned to not stare at the turn coordinator and instead focus on the nose (since I can't really see the horizon) and use my peripheral vision to watch the horizon on both sides of the nose.
• When it's time to turn crosswind, I never seem to know whether to release only a little bit of rudder pressure, all of the right rudder pressure, or apply left rudder pressure: it seems different in every plane. Some of the 172s I fly seem to need right rudder pressure to counteract left turning tendencies while also still in a climb AND turning left. All of this seems like a weird feeling to me, and it causes me to keep my crosswind turns relatively shallow, which my instructor mentions to me quite often.

Does anyone have any advice? Are you supposed to switch to a cruise climb of ~90 knots by the time you turn crosswind so that you aren't pitched up so high? Or is this just a natural weird feeling and I should just stare out of the plane with periodic glances to the turn coordinator and ignore what my body is telling me?

Once I'm wings level and in a cruise climb (1000 feet AGL), it's always smooth sailing from there. Nothing seems weird to me, I trim up and things feel good.

Thanks for any help!

 

[MAKG1]

Raise your seat. It sounds like you're sitting in a hole.

A Vy climb doesn't have a very good forward view, but it isn't as bad as you're describing. I'll generally hold it until pattern altitude, then level out to cruise climb. Note that at high density altitude, you will need to stay at Vy all the time if you want to climb.

I like to adjust my seat so that I can fit two fingers between the tip of the cowling and the glare shield at arms length, in every airplane that can adjust that far. Works pretty well in 172s, not so great in 182s (the glare shield sits higher). With that setup, a Vy climb has the nose pretty close to the horizon.

 

[manlymatt83]

Raise your seat. It sounds like you're sitting in a hole.

A Vy climb doesn't have a very good forward view, but it isn't as bad as you're describing. I'll generally hold it until pattern altitude, then level out to cruise climb. Note that at high density altitude, you will need to stay at Vy all the time if you want to climb.

I like to adjust my seat so that I can fit two fingers between the tip of the cowling and the glare shield at arms length, in every airplane that can adjust that far. Works pretty well in 172s, not so great in 182s (the glare shield sits higher). With that setup, a Vy climb has the nose pretty close to the horizon.

I'm pretty high up.... 5' 9" so not THAT short. I think it's just paranoia about remaining coordinated. I've been trained from the beginning that skid = spin, though I realize airspeed needs to be low enough as well to stall. I guess I'm just having trouble remaining coordinated in a left crosswind turn and always want to lower my nose before turning, which shouldn't be required.

 

[txflyer]

Shallow your climb. 75knots doesn't sound fast enough. That sounds more like a Vx climb.

I like to climb out at 90 to 110 knots and cover some ground if there are no mountains or obstacles.

 

[DesertNomad]

75kts sounds like Vy to me. In the 172 I trained in, Vx was 65kts and Vy was 74kts. Every airplane is going to be rigged a bit differently. How high you are pitching also depends on your elevation. I trained in Reno at 4500' so on a summer day, a Vy climb was pretty shallow.

 

[MAKG1]

I'm pretty high up.... 5' 9" so not THAT short. I think it's just paranoia about remaining coordinated. I've been trained from the beginning that skid = spin, though I realize airspeed needs to be low enough as well to stall. I guess I'm just having trouble remaining coordinated in a left crosswind turn and always want to lower my nose before turning, which shouldn't be required.

Stick a closed fist on the glare shield at arms length and measure it.

You're a full six inches shorter than me. If I had the seat lowered by half that, I'd be making the same complaint.

Also consider getting a pad to sit on.

 

[Brad Z]

I've been trained from the beginning that skid = spin, though I realize airspeed needs to be low enough as well to stall.

This concept might have been over simplified for you, but it's not a speed, its an angle of attack. Stall speed changes based on configuration, weight, and g-forces. Not to instill more fear in you but a plane can stall at ANY speed.

You'll gain more confidence doing more air work, such as slow flight and stalls. Once you intuitively know how to detect the onset of a stall, you won't have to worry about a spin. Besides, full power stalls will show you how high of deck angle you have to get before you approach a stall.

 

[manlymatt83]

This concept might have been over simplified for you, but it's not a speed, its an angle of attack. Stall speed changes based on configuration, weight, and g-forces. Not to instill more fear in you but a plane can stall at ANY speed.

You'll gain more confidence doing more air work, such as slow flight and stalls. Once you intuitively know how to detect the onset of a stall, you won't have to worry about a spin. Besides, full power stalls will show you how high of deck angle you have to get before you approach a stall.

I'm actually well past the slow flight stage (I've already solo'd) and surprisingly slow flight/wings level stalls don't make me anxious. However, I haven't done much in the way of stalls in a turn yet, which is perhaps part of the problem. And I definitely understand relative wind and angle of attack... my comment was mostly that at flight such as that in a coordinated, wings level climb, going 65+ knots is going to be a-okay... but for some reason in a climb my confidence is down because it feels a little uncomfortable.

 

[DesertNomad]

I haven't done much in the way of stalls in a turn yet

I am surprised your CFI let you solo without that. My CFI almost never let me do wings-level stalls. We did them at full power in a climbing turn and power-off, full flaps in a descending turn.

 

[manlymatt83]

I am surprised your CFI let you solo without that. My CFI almost never let me do wings-level stalls. We did them at full power in a climbing turn and power-off, full flaps in a descending turn.

Maybe you're onto something.

I've done spin training, but that wasn't the same thing... it wasn't in the 172, anyway. Yeah, the only slow flight I've done is wings level stalls.

 

[Clark1961]

Every airplane is going to be rigged a bit differently. How high you are pitching also depends on your elevation. I trained in Reno at 4500' so on a summer day, a Vy climb was pretty shallow.

The 172 has a "fixed" rudder trim system. "fixed" means it usually needs fixed since the trim tab is just a bent piece of aluminum attached to the rudder. Literally every 172 is a little bit different.

As for seat height, IIRC your eyes should be just a little below the bottom of the wing. It is important to have a consistent eye height. Some aircraft have fixtures such as two balls that are lined up to set eye height. It's pretty important to figure out a system and stick with it. A good CFI will cover it early in training. A forgetful CFI won't cover it until you mention a problem.

 

[ateamer]

Shallow your climb. 75knots doesn't sound fast enough. That sounds more like a Vx climb.

I like to climb out at 90 to 110 knots and cover some ground if there are no mountains or obstacles.

Vx-59
Vy-73

 

[MAKG1]

The 172 has a "fixed" rudder trim system. "fixed" means it usually needs fixed since the trim tab is just a bent piece of aluminum attached to the rudder. Literally every 172 is a little bit different.

As for seat height, IIRC your eyes should be just a little below the bottom of the wing. It is important to have a consistent eye height. Some aircraft have fixtures such as two balls that are lined up to set eye height. It's pretty important to figure out a system and stick with it. A good CFI will cover it early in training. A forgetful CFI won't cover it until you mention a problem.

Quite a few 172s have rudder trim. It was an option. Pretty sucky rudder trim, but you can sort of adjust it in flight.

 

[exncsurfer]

If it makes you feel better, try this when climbing to pattern altitude, lower the nose, turn, then resume climb attitude. My CFI had me use that method. Any other CFI's out there teach that?

 

[Bird Man]

I would definitely get back in with the instructor and work on the power on turning stalls.

When you are turning crosswind, you should have your nose down a bit until you REALLY know the plane intimately.

Maybe you're onto something.

I've done spin training, but that wasn't the same thing... it wasn't in the 172, anyway. Yeah, the only slow flight I've done is wings level stalls.

 

[orange]

I think I felt something similar early on in my training. And my CFI's would yell at me for pitching down before turning crosswind. They kept saying "keep the climb going".

I trained in a Cherokee (Vy= 79) so I would try to stay around that speed climbing out until I hit TPA, but instinctively, I felt uneasy turning in that high AOA configuration. I would always drop the nose just a little before starting the turn, but it would lower my climb rate and pick up speed and I would be told to keep the back pressure in.

 

[petrolero]

Yeah I remember something like that. You don't have great forward visibility in a climb, especially the initial climb. It's a phase of flight where your normal forward visual references are removed and you have to look elsewhere. Look out the side windows at the angle the wing makes with the horizon for your visual pitch references - but there's no need to fixate there. Look to either side of the nose to see where you're going and to scan for birds or traffic. You can also look to the sides of the nose to see where the horizon "meets" the cowling to get an idea of pitch. You can also take a look at the AI for pitch info. But your primary instrument for pitch info in an already-established climb, of course, is the ASI. Maintain heading with the DG.

When I roll left or right in a climb, I use some rudder - enough to at least keep the nose going straight ahead and preferably yaw into the direction of the turn a little. I establish the bank then check the quality of my work against the inclinometer.

A good exercise might be to practice dutch rolls in a climb in the practice area. Well that's what my instructor called them (doesn't seem to match the wiki definition). You practice rolling from 30 deg left then 30 deg right over and over without allowing adverse yaw. Kinda makes the feet wake up... and rolling the airplane is fun.

 

[Bob Noel]

fwiw (I'm not a CFI) - in my cherokee 140 I would generally fly best angle of climb until past the end of the runway (or thereabouts) and then lower the nose for better forward visibility. In my 140 climbing at a higher airspeed was also better for engine cooling.

 

[manlymatt83]

If it makes you feel better, try this when climbing to pattern altitude, lower the nose, turn, then resume climb attitude. My CFI had me use that method. Any other CFI's out there teach that?

I think that would make me a feel a lot more comfortable actually. Even just lowering the nose a little bit, turning, then resuming the climb. Is there anything actually wrong with that approach?

 

[manlymatt83]

I would definitely get back in with the instructor and work on the power on turning stalls.

When you are turning crosswind, you should have your nose down a bit until you REALLY know the plane intimately.

So, you wouldn't adjust the trim at all in this case, right? Just a forward push to lower the nose, left bank, level onto crosswind, and relieve the forward pressure to continue climb?

 

[Bird Man]

You wouldn't have to adjust the trim, assuming you are trimming a bit on climbing the departure leg.

A little forward pressure to gain a few knots in the turn is not going to kill your climb. As you start to level your bank angle, release the forward pressure and you will start climbing again.

You should only have a few hundred more feet to climb on the crosswind anyway, depending on your TPA that is...

You will find when you are doing turning stalls in the 172, it really isn't easy.

So, you wouldn't adjust the trim at all in this case, right? Just a forward push to lower the nose, left bank, level onto crosswind, and relieve the forward pressure to continue climb?

 

[petrolero]

I think that would make me a feel a lot more comfortable actually. Even just lowering the nose a little bit, turning, then resuming the climb. Is there anything actually wrong with that approach?

So, you wouldn't adjust the trim at all in this case, right? Just a forward push to lower the nose, left bank, level onto crosswind, and relieve the forward pressure to continue climb?

I'm not a fan of lowering/raising the nose each time you need to make a climbing turn in the pattern because it will take longer to reach pattern altitude and it trains you to fly the pattern in an unstabilized manner. It could become a crutch that prevents you learning to do constant-speed climbing turns on takeoff. It's not good technique and it might not even pass the check ride if the DPE doesn't like the fact that your air- and vertical speeds fluctuate a lot.

Now you could climb at a faster speed than 75 probably - not sure what type you're flying. And that might alleviate some of the visual problems while also maintaining a good rate of climb and also keeping it stabilized. In summer, your plane may demand higher airspeeds in climb just for cooling anyway. I'm just saying raise, lower, turn, raise, lower, turn, raise isn't what they want you to learn.

 

[noahfong]

Yes, it is normal for you to be holding right rudder during a climb. (Something about P-factor and torque and all that stuff). And yes, you can be holding some right rudder into a climbing left turn. Also, yes, the amount of rudder needed vs. aileron can vary (density of the air and cg, for example).

Some basics... generally, whenever you move the ailerons from neutral, you will create some adverse yaw. So, you apply some rudder to counteract. Once you neutralize the ailerons, you can neutralize the rudder.

Now, in a climb, you apply right rudder to counteract the other "stuff" we mentioned. When maintaining a climb, that rudder position becomes the neutral position until you level off. So, as you apply ailerons to roll left, you will "undo" some right rudder as needed. The amount of right rudder you undo (and maybe some application of left rudder) depends on the amount of aileron you apply.

Start by moving your feet anytime you move the ailerons. Then learn to coordinate. The best way to get used to this is to practice focusing on visual and physical cues. For example, when you roll into a turn, the nose should start pointing in the direction of the turn. If it doesn't, you need to apply rudder. And focus on whether you have that "I'm not sitting up right" feeling (seat of the pants) and learning how to adjust it with your feet.

Have fun!

 

[Sundancer]

The initial weird feeling is likely the acceleration and pitch up - Mr. Inner Ear tells you you're still rotating, and though Mr. Peripheral Vision might disagree, he may not be getting your full attention.

Heck, I read an account by an X-15 pilot that the sensation was quite creepy; granted, he was accelerating and pitching up a bit more briskly than a 172 pilot, but the sensation is real.

Don't sweat it on initial climb; just fly an airspeed (or AoA) that keeps you among the living, and you'll be fine. You aren't going to stall a 172 climbing out at 75 knots.

Rigging varies on 172s, as does power developed, even with "identical" engines and props. So rudder required varies a bit, and your speed affects it as well.

Again, look at what the nose is doing, then glance down at the TC, add a bit, or take out a bit, to center the ball; don't obsess over it, or over think it; if things feel hinky, go ahead and lower the nose (AoA) for a couple of seconds to sort it out. Nothing happens real fast in a 172, so you have time to be deliberate.

On a flight in a T-41, first time solo in that aircraft, on a cold night with 1/2 fuel, I committed a short field takeoff. That resulted in a deck angle not generally experienced by 172 pilots. The rotation sensation was "remarkable", as was the enormous amount of rudder pressure required. I did need to glance out the side window to confirm I wasn't half-way through a loop, and that the AH and AS were not lying to me.

 

[manlymatt83]

The initial weird feeling is likely the acceleration and pitch up - Mr. Inner Ear tells you you're still rotating, and though Mr. Peripheral Vision might disagree, he may not be getting your full attention.

Heck, I read an account by an X-15 pilot that the sensation was quite creepy; granted, he was accelerating and pitching up a bit more briskly than a 172 pilot, but the sensation is real.

Don't sweat it on initial climb; just fly an airspeed (or AoA) that keeps you among the living, and you'll be fine. You aren't going to stall a 172 climbing out at 75 knots.

Rigging varies on 172s, as does power developed, even with "identical" engines and props. So rudder required varies a bit, and your speed affects it as well.

Again, look at what the nose is doing, then glance down at the TC, add a bit, or take out a bit, to center the ball; don't obsess over it, or over think it; if things feel hinky, go ahead and lower the nose (AoA) for a couple of seconds to sort it out. Nothing happens real fast in a 172, so you have time to be deliberate.

On a flight in a T-41, first time solo in that aircraft, on a cold night with 1/2 fuel, I committed a short field takeoff. That resulted in a deck angle not generally experienced by 172 pilots. The rotation sensation was "remarkable", as was the enormous amount of rudder pressure required. I did need to glance out the side window to confirm I wasn't half-way through a loop, and that the AH and AS were not lying to me.

That's the thing... I've been told that the ball being even slightly off center can potentially cause a spin, but I sometimes forget that even at 65 knots (wings level in an established climb), I'm still safe... and on all my climbs I'm maintaining at least 75. So even though it feels "weird" turning crosswind with the nose high, it isn't dangerous if I'm not keeping the ball exactly in the center, just perhaps a little uncomfortable. I think I just need to get more used to that. Perhaps some more power on stall practice would help.

 

[bluerooster]

I rotate at 60 and climb out at 80. Unless I'm doing short field. 80 will lower the nose enough for better forward vis. and allow you to cover some ground as well.

 

[manlymatt83]

I rotate at 60 and climb out at 80. Unless I'm doing short field. 80 will lower the nose enough for better forward vis. and allow you to cover some ground as well.

Do you maintain take off trim the whole way up?

 

[Bird Man]

Practice them until you are no longer uncomfortable! :wink2:

Perhaps some more power on stall practice would help.

 

[txflyer]

Vx-59
Vy-73

O.k. thanks. Been a long time since I've flown a 172.

If he had an AOA instrument this entire conversation would be moot.

 

[DoubleD]

It's admirable to keep your head out of the cockpit while in the pattern, but the ball holds the answer to your question. That's what it's for. First time or two in a different plane, keep an eye on it as you start your turn and adjust rudder pressure accordingly.

 

[exncsurfer]

I rotate at 60 and climb out at 80. Unless I'm doing short field. 80 will lower the nose enough for better forward vis. and allow you to cover some ground as well.

Ditto, I climb at 80 in a 172. While I find it tricky to stay on center line in that attitude(with crosswind), its not uncomfortable, you'll get used to it. Try 80 with your CFI see if that helps.

POH in a 172S says Normal Climb: 75-85

So, you should be well away from 65 by the time you're turning crosswind.

 

[exncsurfer]

I rotate at 60 and climb out at 80. Unless I'm doing short field. 80 will lower the nose enough for better forward vis. and allow you to cover some ground as well.

Do you maintain take off trim the whole way up?

I can't answer for Shorty(bluerooster), but I have to tweak trim to try and get 80 dialed in, you won't keep it long though if you're staying in the pattern. I try to trim for a speed and leave it.(till i need a new speed)

takeoff trim on the 172's I train in tends to leave me slow with forward pressure required to get speed built so i have to trim nose down pretty soon after liftoff.

part of your problem might be the jumping around between planes and models and not getting a consistent response.

 

[exncsurfer]

So, you wouldn't adjust the trim at all in this case, right? Just a forward push to lower the nose, left bank, level onto crosswind, and relieve the forward pressure to continue climb?

Yea, its so quick you won't be trimming in the turn. And I wouldn't say level onto the crosswind, not level, just less nose up. I think he initially showed me this for an expedited climbing turn at a low altitude, not as a 'do this every time' kind of thing. You say you make your turns shallow due to this 'weirdness' that you perceive, maybe this method will get your bank fixed and then you can smooth out the attitude as you get comfortable.

??

2 cents from fellow student pilot (not a cfi)

 

[manlymatt83]

I can't answer for Shorty(bluerooster), but I have to tweak trim to try and get 80 dialed in, you won't keep it long though if you're staying in the pattern. I try to trim for a speed and leave it.(till i need a new speed)

takeoff trim on the 172's I train in tends to leave me slow with forward pressure required to get speed built so i have to trim nose down pretty soon after liftoff.

part of your problem might be the jumping around between planes and models and not getting a consistent response.

Potentially. I think it would also help for me to feel more comfortable closer to the ground. In a 172, in an established climb at ~ 75 knots, even a slight uncoordinated turn onto crosswind is not going to make the thing fall out of the sky. Confidence building would help me big time, I think.

 

[petrolero]

That's the thing... I've been told that the ball being even slightly off center can potentially cause a spin, but I sometimes forget that even at 65 knots (wings level in an established climb), I'm still safe... and on all my climbs I'm maintaining at least 75. So even though it feels "weird" turning crosswind with the nose high, it isn't dangerous if I'm not keeping the ball exactly in the center, just perhaps a little uncomfortable. I think I just need to get more used to that. Perhaps some more power on stall practice would help.

You must be in a stall first in order to spin. You will not spin a 172 at 75 or 65... (and unlikely even at 55) unless you are > 20 deg bank. My instructor limited me to 20 deg bank in the pattern. If you don't stall you don't spin. Mind your airspeed and check the ball once in a while but don't fixate on either one.

Slow flight & power on + accelerated stalls would be good practice, as would climbing turns and, if you can swing it, spin training.