Getting into Aerobatics

[nnumberorg]

Hey all, I'm just getting started with aerobatics. I have a few questions for the more experienced among us.

I've been flying GA for a while now and recently did a discovery aerobatic flight in a Decathlon. Absolutely loved it — the whole experience of intentionally putting the airplane somewhere "wrong" and then controlling it was eye-opening. Now I'm hooked and planning to get proper training.

A few things I'm trying to figure out:

1. Decathlon vs. Citabria vs. Pitts for a beginner — I keep hearing "start in a Decathlon" but curious if anyone here started in something else and what the tradeoffs were.
2. How many hours of dual before going solo acro? I've seen everything from "10 hours minimum" to "whenever your instructor signs you off." What was your experience?
3. Parachute requirements — I know 91.307 says chutes are required for intentional maneuvers exceeding 60° nose up/down or 30° bank (with exceptions for crew). Is everyone just renting/buying their own rig, or do most training outfits provide them?
4. Practice areas — how did you find yours? Is it basically just "pick uncongested airspace above 3,000 AGL" or is there more to it? Anyone have experience setting up a waivered aerobatic box?
5. The mental game — that first solo spin recovery was apparently a big moment for a lot of people. Any advice on building confidence progressively without getting ahead of yourself?

Appreciate any wisdom. Trying to do this the right way from the start.

 

[Dana]

1. Decathlon vs. Citabria vs. Pitts for a beginner — I keep hearing "start in a Decathlon" but curious if anyone here started in something else and what the tradeoffs were.

That may depend on your reasons for doing acro training. If you plan to get into serious acro or just doing a bucket list thing, starting in a Pitts may be appropriate. If you're doing it primarily to make yourself a safer pilot in ordinary planes, the Decathalon or Citabria may be more appropriate. The lower power planes will teach you more about energy management and flying through the maneuvers than the yank and bank you can get away with in a Pitts.

2. How many hours of dual before going solo acro? I've seen everything from "10 hours minimum" to "whenever your instructor signs you off." What was your experience?

I had 2 hours acro instruction, read some books, and then went off and taught myself. Not smart, and I made a few mistakes that could have killed me if I wasn't lucky. My only excuse is that I was a stupid kid.

3. Parachute requirements — I know 91.307 says chutes are required for intentional maneuvers exceeding 60° nose up/down or 30° bank (with exceptions for crew). Is everyone just renting/buying their own rig, or do most training outfits provide them?

If you're doing dual, they'll usually provide a parachute.

4. Practice areas — how did you find yours? Is it basically just "pick uncongested airspace above 3,000 AGL" or is there more to it? Anyone have experience setting up a waivered aerobatic box?

Not just uncongested airspace, but at least 4 miles from the center of any airway. That can be problematic in many parts of the country. Near where I live there are just two small areas that qualify, and that's where I go to play.

§ 91.303 Aerobatic flight.​

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—​

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(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;​

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(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;​

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(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;​

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(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;​

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(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or​

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(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.​

​

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.​

5. The mental game — that first solo spin recovery was apparently a big moment for a lot of people. Any advice on building confidence progressively without getting ahead of yourself?

Take it easy and listen to your instructor.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I learned in a Decathlon and highly recommend it. A Pitts will make everything easier, which is not the right way to learn in my opinion! A typical aerobatic course is 5 hours, then you'll want 5 more to feel really confident. Then, if you get a Pitts, go to one of the experts and let them put you through your paces!

You only have to wear a pararchute if you have a passenger. I never owned one, they were provided by the owner of the planes I was flying. I couldn't fit in my Little Toot biplane with a parachute on, so I was doomed to die like a man if things went wrong!

Eat, but not too much before a flight. Don't go on an empty stomach.

Tuck your shirt into your pants. Sounds gross, but if you get sick, you'd rather puke down your shirt than clean an airplane! I've always made it to the ground, but did get sick after a long break from aerobatics.

Once you get comfortable and start taking people up, don't do too much. I always did two loops, two rolls, two spins and then headed back to the airport. Some passengers protested that they could do more, but usually once we were on the ground they realized I was right!

 

[Lowflynjack]

Take it easy and listen to your instructor.

This piece of advice is the best you'll ever get! My instructor told me to do no more than a 2-turn spin when out practicing by myself. He said we'd work on doing more later. I was young and invincible and decided I could do as many turns as I wanted. Somewhere around the 4th turn, it tightened up, the ground started spinning faster and faster and I realized I should have listened to my instructor. I still remember that barn on the ground spinning around and around and getting bigger.

 

[Barrett50]

I was a weekend warrior not a pro acro by any shot.
1. Citabria is cheaper, use that if want to save bucks. Pitts if you are going for competitive acro flight.
2. Min 5 hours of actual acro. This does not include takeoff, landing, transit to the practice zone. Once you get there, about 45 min to an hour of acro time is going to saturate you. So, plan five minimum lessons of 1 hour acro each and plan for 30 min extra of getting to and from the box. If you aren't sweating after 30 min of acro in the Citabria, you are doing it wrong.
3. Parachutes. Long term acro plans? Buy a good emer unit. Just getting the itch scratched, it'll come with the plane, or you can go to a skydiving place and ask to rent an emer(not a reg canopy) chute.
4. Ask the place where the plane is rented, they will advise you. Some acro boxes are within gliding distance of a small, uncongested airstrip, but it doesn't have to be. Anything with some open fields under you will do.
5. Stay on the reservation with your solo maneuvers. If you watch one, try one, and the inst is ok with it, put it in your solo routine.

The plane is going to handle different once you get solo, without the weight of the inst. If you don't own the plane, realize that some stuff is hard on the plane. Hammerhead turns are tough on the engine, and the tail. Inverted flight you are going to get a bunch of CRAP from the floor or pockets falling in your face and eyes. If it's not bolted down, it's going to wind up on the roof, and will make another trip back down when you turn it upside right. Tuck your shirt in, and wear a belt, take everything out of your pockets and leave in the car. Get the seat belt tight and low.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Hammerhead turns are tough on the engine, and the tail.

Never thought a hammerhead was tough on an engine or tail, but I will say if you do one in a Citabria or Decathlon, you don't have much time on the upline and if you do a tailslide, you get to pay for an inspection... don't ask how I know!

 

[Barrett50]

Never thought a hammerhead was tough on an engine or tail, but I will say if you do one in a Citabria or Decathlon, you don't have much time on the upline and if you do a tailslide, you get to pay for an inspection... don't ask how I know!

Trust me or don't. I owned a Citabria, and I can tell you the exhaust valves I've had to replace, and the tail torque frame I've had to weld. Red line the engine, 4G pull up to vertical at full throttle, wait for speed to decay maintaining full power, and kick full rudder until downline. Pull throttle back to idle, and 4G recovery to level flight. I would say, every 10 hammerhead turns prob cost around $3000 in maint and repair.

 

[Flyhound]

I started acro flight in a rental Citabria without spades. It made me learn to use the rudder and it built my arm strength. Top rudder for slow, or 4 point rolls was absolutely necessary to not fall out of the maneuver. When I bought a share in a Pitts S2A it was MUCH easier to fly and MUCH harder to land. If you start with a Pitts you can get really lazy with the rudder because the roll rate is so high. Most maneuvers are fingertip easy rather than requiring a body brace in the cockpit to get the stick over far enough to complete a roll. The lessons you learn in a less capable airplane will translate to better accuracy if/when you move to a Pitts or another more capable acro mount. I'd recommend starting with a less capable airplane, get good with it and then marvel at the capabilities of a plane like a Pitts. You will have to spend time learning to land the Pitts. Soloing from the back seat and the high angle of attack on final means you have little to no forward visibility. I usually flew a circling approach that turned me into alignment with the runway just before the wheels touched down. That let me see where I was headed until just before touchdown. Acro is a wonderful addition to your skill set, so enjoy the journey. Start practicing new maneuvers with LOTS of air between you and the ground. The first time I tried a double snap roll in the Pitts, I didn't have enough energy when I entered the maneuver and I tumbled into a spin before I completed the second snap. I thought it was an upright spin and I wasted too much time trying to recover before realizing I was in an inverted spin. Since I'm answering your question, it is clear that I survived, but only because I was 6,000' AGL when I started. Lots of good memories of the Pitts and that kind of flying.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Get a few lessons before you get set on buying a plane. Many people like the idea of aerobatics, until they try it. Some love the actual experience, while others hate it.

Most intro courses are 5 hours. That's enough to fly basic aerobatic maneuvers solo in a training aircraft. Part of learning after that will be recognizing you need an extra lesson on something.

Choice of planes depends on what you want to do. If you just want to fly basic acro, many homebuilt biplanes will do, as will the RV family.

The Citabria is a good choice for taildraggery, grass strips, and basic acro. Hard to beat for fun for the money. Not a good choice for competition.

I have a Decathlon. It is probably the best primary acro trainer commonly available. Very tolerant of mistakes and docile to land. Capable of competition at the sportsman level, though you will outgrow it in a few years. Also good for XC, light backcountry, etc. Main drawback is price.

The Pitts is an excellent competition aircraft, but not so good for XC, backcountry, etc. General consensus is you will need 5 to 10 hours of Pitts transition training in addition to your acro training. The single seaters are incredible bang for the buck. My next plane will be a Pitts.

 

[RoscoeT]

Trust me or don't. I owned a Citabria, and I can tell you the exhaust valves I've had to replace, and the tail torque frame I've had to weld. Red line the engine, 4G pull up to vertical at full throttle, wait for speed to decay maintaining full power, and kick full rudder until downline. Pull throttle back to idle, and 4G recovery to level flight. I would say, every 10 hammerhead turns prob cost around $3000 in maint and repair.

So many questions...

What do exhaust valves have to do with hammerheads? I've only done a few thousand hammers in all my airplanes over the years and never had exhaust valve problems. Never even heard anyone try to correlate valve issues with hammers.

Been around tons of Citabria and Decathlon owners too and never heard of anyone getting rudder cracks attributable to hammers.

And why the heck would you pull the power to idle on the downline?

 

[RoscoeT]

I started acro flight in a rental Citabria without spades. It made me learn to use the rudder and it built my arm strength. Top rudder for slow, or 4 point rolls was absolutely necessary to not fall out of the maneuver. When I bought a share in a Pitts S2A it was MUCH easier to fly and MUCH harder to land. If you start with a Pitts you can get really lazy with the rudder because the roll rate is so high. Most maneuvers are fingertip easy rather than requiring a body brace in the cockpit to get the stick over far enough to complete a roll.

I agree that Citabrias are great for learning rudder skills, and that the Decathlon is about the best primary acro trainer there is. However, you really can't be lazy at all with rudder use in a Pitts unless you're just flying for the peanut gallery at the pancake breakfast run. To do a perfect level (competition) roll in a Pitts takes the exact same finesse and well timed rudder inputs as a Citabria, but the Pitts just requires less rudder and elevator DEFLECTION and is physically easier. You can fool your buddies who don't know what they're looking at, but you cannot fool the judges at a contest for anyone who ends up competing.

Most Pitts' roll in the 180 deg/sec or so range which is not blindingly fast by any stretch and is plenty slow to have to learn proper rudder skills. Now a Giles 200 that rolls over 400 deg/sec is another matter. Thing is, either you care about the art of acro or you don't. Those who do will get training and study, read books, and learn the finest points possible and then go practice and critique, rinse and repeat until it's as perfect as possible. It's much more about the mentality than the airplane.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Been around tons of Citabria and Decathlon owners too and never heard of anyone getting rudder cracks attributable to hammers.

I've done several hundred hammers in my Decathlon. It's one of my favorites. No rudder cracks or engine issues.

Maybe if you do bad hammers, by holding too long so they are all tailslides?

 

[RoscoeT]

I've done several hundred hammers in my Decathlon. It's one of my favorites. No rudder cracks or engine issues.

Maybe if you do bad hammers, by holding too long so they are all tailslides?

Beats me. Repeated snaps are about the only basic acro maneuver I don't hold it against folks for not doing in these airplanes, but as you know it's not because of rudder issues...and snaps are much harder on the rudder than hammers.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Word of caution for anyone wanting to pursue aerobatic training: Vet your instructor and aircraft carefully.

There are people holding themselves out as "experts" that are far from it. Don't take the word of their advertising.

This from 1994 is a perfect example. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/35524

 

[RoscoeT]

Word of caution for anyone wanting to pursue aerobatic training: Vet your instructor and aircraft carefully.

There are people holding themselves out as "experts" that are far from it. Don't take the word of their advertising.

This from 1994 is a perfect example. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/35524

Not too much of an issue these days since anyone advertising training usually has some sort of social media presence, and the acro world is a small community. Those who are unqualified are ID'd and will not last. Still it's a good idea to ask around and get instructor recommendations even from the internet.

 

[Barrett50]

Done my share of acro including hammerheads too. Never broke a rudder either. Not sure why that was brought up, or why I was tagged about rudders breaking.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Not too much of an issue these days since anyone advertising training usually has some sort of social media presence, and the acro world is a small community. Those who are unqualified are ID'd and will not last. Still it's a good idea to ask around and get instructor recommendations even from the internet.

Competition history is a good indicator. You don't have to be unlimited world champion, but a few contest trophies at intermediate or higher is objective evidence you have put in the hours to master the foundations.

 

[RoscoeT]

Done my share of acro including hammerheads too. Never broke a rudder either. Not sure why that was brought up, or why I was tagged about rudders breaking.

You brought it up and were not tagged. ???

 

[RoscoeT]

Competition history is a good indicator. You don't have to be unlimited world champion, but a few contest trophies at intermediate or higher is objective evidence you have put in the hours to master the foundations.

Yep that at least indicates some level of outside critique such that it's likely some proper fundamentals have been learned and can be passed along to students. Bad technique/habits are a terrible thing to pass along to those who might actually end up caring about the sport. That being said, there is also too much worship of "famous" names in the business of the most basic aerobatic instruction being given to pilots who have never been upside down in an airplane. This level of instruction doesn't require the highest level of aerobatic credentials, just solid fundamentals and an ability to instruct. There's no correlation between fame and teaching ability. Again, ask around.

 

[Pinecone]

I am in the camp of start off in a Decathlon or Citabria. Then move to Pitts, or other serious aerobatic aircraft, if you plan on taking it further