Getting established on a GPS Approach

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
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Display name:
Dan Mc
I used to file to the IF at the destination.

But then winds would shift, ATC would ask what I wanted, etc, etc.

So now I file to the destination airport.

I usually have no problem when arriving at FWQ from the west and north, but when approaching from the south and east Cleveland Center keeps me until I'm very close.

When I ask for a particular approach from CLE they tell me to coordinate with Pitt.

My question is this -- I'm cleared direct to the airport, but flight to the IAF/IF/FAF is a different course. If I wait for PIT Approach and remain direct to airport, I'll be flying a circuotous route to the IF or FAF with vectors.

I suppose I should just do my best guess and file to the most likely IAF.

But if coming form the east it's 20 miles to the IAF, 10 to the IF, and 4 to the FAF (with a near 180 to get established) (see http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0905/05624R8.PDF)
 
How about filing direct to the airport, and when you know what the approach is going to be, "request direct ASKAR, direct". Gets you going in the right direction, without requesting the approach from somebody who can't give it to you.
 
dmccormack said:
My question is this -- I'm cleared direct to the airport, but flight to the IAF/IF/FAF is a different course. If I wait for PIT Approach and remain direct to airport, I'll be flying a circuotous route to the IF or FAF with vectors.

I suppose I should just do my best guess and file to the most likely IAF.

But if coming form the east it's 20 miles to the IAF, 10 to the IF, and 4 to the FAF (with a near 180 to get established) (see http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0905/05624R8.PDF)
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Still waiting for the question.
 
MauleSkinner said:
How about filing direct to the airport, and when you know what the approach is going to be, "request direct ASKAR, direct". Gets you going in the right direction, without requesting the approach from somebody who can't give it to you.
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Good idea....

That's what I did last IMC to FWQ. I plugged the FAF into the GPS and requested direct to the FAF. When I was handed off asked for vectors to final from Pitt.

Still required a fairly short time and space to get established (From "Fly Hdg 310" to "Fly Hdg 050" to intercept)
 
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Dan,

I make my best guess at the approach and file to my desired IAF direct airport. If things change as I get close, I can always request vectors or a different waypoint.
 
John Collins said:
Dan,

I make my best guess at the approach and file to my desired IAF direct airport. If things change as I get close, I can always request vectors or a different waypoint.
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John,

That works at every other airport...but for some reason CLE CTR keeps you high until very close to FWQ, when you get handed off to PIT APP.

By then I need to fly up to 20 miles out of the way to get established....
 
dmccormack said:
(I was rambling)....
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...and forgot what the question was? You're too young to be doing that.:smilewinkgrin:
Question is: What is the best way to assure arriving at an IF/IAF when Center won't commit and defers the handoff to Approach --- which is very close to destination?
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About all you can do is ask Center to ask Approach what their plan is and be prepared to be flexible. However, unless the approach is in a nonradar environment, you can pretty much count on VTF unless you request otherwise. If you do want a particular IF/IAF for the approach (say, for training purposes), just tell Center what you want, and they'll normally coordinate with Approach. Beyond that, see the first sentence of this paragraph. In any event, what you file has very little bearing on what you'll get compared to the exigencies of what ATC has going on in the area (unless that's absolutely nothing).
 
dmccormack said:
That works at every other airport...but for some reason CLE CTR keeps you high until very close to FWQ, when you get handed off to PIT APP. By then I need to fly up to 20 miles out of the way to get established....
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When you're dealing with a busy metro area like PIT, they have pretty well-established handshakes with CTR about where folks are handed off, both vertically and horizontally. Those handshakes significantly pre-date GPS approaches, and they're not going to change the flows derived from that just to accomodate someone who wants the full GPS approach from the IAF (or even from the IF). Going into areas like PIT, you are almost certainly going to get VTF along their established routes in trail with the folks flying the ILS -- they just can't keep all the spaghetti on the plate any other way.
 
Dan,

Might I suggest you tour, or at least call, both PIT TRACON and CLE ARTCC? They could tell you what's going on between them in that area, and maybe give you some alternate suggestions that could fix the problem. I learned a lot more than I expected to touring the local tower and TRACON a couple of weeks ago, and now that I understand how they divvy up the airspace, I can adjust where I fly (altitude and track) to get better clearances.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and forgot what the question was? You're too young to be doing that.:smilewinkgrin:).
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I'll blame the kids -- they gave me grey hair, too!

:rolleyes:

Ron Levy said:
About all you can do is ask Center to ask Approach what their plan is and be prepared to be flexible. However, unless the approach is in a nonradar environment, you can pretty much count on VTF unless you request otherwise. If you do want a particular IF/IAF for the approach (say, for training purposes), just tell Center what you want, and they'll normally coordinate with Approach. Beyond that, see the first sentence of this paragraph. In any event, what you file has very little bearing on what you'll get compared to the exigencies of what ATC has going on in the area (unless that's absolutely nothing).
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Yep, that seems to be the only option. Since 90% of my IFR flights are est or south of FWQ, this happens frequently.

It's almost amusing how quickly PIT hands you off on takeoff when heading south or east -- thus flying IFR before takeoff CTAF and PIT APP are set on COMM 1. Announce t/o, get to pattern altitude, switch to PIT, announce. Fly clearance heading for about 3 miles. During that time dial CLE in standby...."Turn left heading 120 and contact Cleveland Center on 124.2...."

Approaches are about the same.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Dan,

Might I suggest you tour, or at least call, both PIT TRACON and CLE ARTCC? They could tell you what's going on between them in that area, and maybe give you some alternate suggestions that could fix the problem. I learned a lot more than I expected to touring the local tower and TRACON a couple of weeks ago, and now that I understand how they divvy up the airspace, I can adjust where I fly (altitude and track) to get better clearances.
Click to expand...

Good idea! I have some students that would benefit, as well.
 
dmccormack said:
(I was rambling)....

Question is: What is the best way to assure arriving at an IF/IAF when Center won't commit and defers the handoff to Approach --- which is very close to destination?
Click to expand...
Like you I file to the airport.

When I get handed to the sector of the approach control that will handle the approach I immediately make my request for my desired approach and the IAF I want to use. 99 and 44/100 of the time they come back and give me exactly what I want.
 
smigaldi said:
Like you I file to the airport.

When I get handed to the sector of the approach control that will handle the approach I immediately make my request for my desired approach and the IAF I want to use. 99 and 44/100 of the time they come back and give me exactly what I want.
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Me too -- except in this odd situation when I arriving from south and east of KFWQ.

In that case you are with CLE CTR until very close to the destination.

CLE will defer the approach to PITT. By the time you switch to PIT there's a fair amount of manuevering and flying in store to get established. Vectors to FAF are the normal option unless you want to add 10-15 minutes to a 3 hour flight...
 
dmccormack said:
Me too -- except in this odd situation when I arriving from south and east of KFWQ.

In that case you are with CLE CTR until very close to the destination.

CLE will defer the approach to PITT. By the time you switch to PIT there's a fair amount of manuevering and flying in store to get established. Vectors to FAF are the normal option unless you want to add 10-15 minutes to a 3 hour flight...
Click to expand...
Can you ask earlier and request them to coord? If not I would suggest what was said above about contacting them to better understand how the two facilites deal with each other so that you can set it up better. I have similiar issues with one approach into KVPZ. The hand off happens 1NM from the IAF and Chi-App keeps you almost 2000 feet above the approach so you have to do a real dive in the short amount of time until you get to the FAF.
 
smigaldi said:
Can you ask earlier and request them to coord? If not I would suggest what was said above about contacting them to better understand how the two facilites deal with each other so that you can set it up better. I have similiar issues with one approach into KVPZ. The hand off happens 1NM from the IAF and Chi-App keeps you almost 2000 feet above the approach so you have to do a real dive in the short amount of time until you get to the FAF.
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Then you have a similar situation to mine....

Anytime I query CLE, they defer to PIT -- some more curtly than others.

CLE's MSA/MVA is higher in the area, and that the handoff areas are closer to the south of the PIT Class B due to the ridges that run southwesterly about 1000-2000' above the terrain near PIT.

I've wondered if the handoff and process would be different if we had an ILS rather than RNAV approaches....(there seems to be a bit more laissez faire for those of us shooting a GPS approach vice those on the localizer or ILS 10 miles north at KAGC)
 
File for the worst case IAF, and amend to the best case enroute?
 
smigaldi said:
Like you I file to the airport.

When I get handed to the sector of the approach control that will handle the approach I immediately make my request for my desired approach and the IAF I want to use. 99 and 44/100 of the time they come back and give me exactly what I want.
Click to expand...

At the airports I've flown approaches to, I've never had a problem asking for direct to any IAF once I'm close enough to figure out which approach I'll use if any. Typically this is 25-50 miles away. While one can file to an IAF, I find this practice to be a waste of time since the chances of actually flying a particular approach are not all that good when I'm filing 5-15 hours before the landing.
 
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