German student seeking help on how to do a license in the us

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Jonas1994

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Jonas1994
Hello to all out there,

I´m a german student, and would like to do a pilot license in the states. So i would either like to do the SPL or the PPL(A) license, depending on the costs for it.

A few background facts:
- I know an american who is living in California who got me interested in flying -> And i freakin loved it
- The american knows a couple of guys who own airplanes
- The american now offered me to do the practical hours which i need for the license with one of his friends planes, including a flight instructor obviously!
--> Is this even possible?
- I still need to do the theoretical part then though -> Do you guys have numbers for me, like needed hours, costs, etc.?
- I want to also be able to fly in european countries including germany -> Are there costs for transfering the license to germany? Is it even possible? Will i need additional hours in germany then?

So this should be enough information to begin with :)

I´m looking forward to hear from you guys!
Thanks so much for your time!

All the best,
Jonas
 
The minimum flight hours required are defined by regulation as 20 hours for sport pilot and 35 hours (part 141) or 40 hours (part 61) for private pilot. There are specific requirements within those hours which get sorted out as part of the training. In practice most folks require more than the minimum hours. I think the national average is around 60 hours for the private pilot certificate.

Costs per flight hour vary considerably but are mostly in the $100 to $150 range. Instruction ranges from about $30 to maybe $80/hour. California will be at the higher end of those ranges.

The 'theoretical' side is straightforward and is frequently accomplished through self-directed study. Materials are available for free from the FAA or from commercial sources. The FAA stuff is mostly texts in pdf format. The commercial stuff ranges from books to videos to online materials.
 
Jonas1994 said:
- I know an american who is living in California who got me interested in flying -> And i freakin loved it
Click to expand...

Great.

- The american knows a couple of guys who own airplanes
- The american now offered me to do the practical hours which i need for the license with one of his friends planes, including a flight instructor obviously!
--> Is this even possible?
Click to expand...

The friend who is a CFI would have to be registered as a 'flight school' under the TSA security program and enroll you as a student. So yes, if the CFI and you follow through with the formalities, this can be done.

There is a little wrinkle though. After 9-11, the the US became really difficult with doing flight training while on a visa that was not issued for flight training. In the old days, you just came on your visitors visa, did your lessons and got everything buttoned up. Now, there is some rule that you have to inform the immigration service at the time you enter the country that you intend to do flight training. If you didn't inform them and you didn't have a visa specifically issued for flight training (e.g. a M1 vocational training visa or a F1 student visa), then you are in violation of your visa conditions if you take up flight training.

- I still need to do the theoretical part then though -> Do you guys have numbers for me, like needed hours, costs, etc.?
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I believe there are testing centers in germany where you can take the FAA written exam. For the certificate itself, you need 40 hrs total, 20hrs of which are with a CFI. Most students take a bit longer, iirc the average is somewhere around 65hrs. The cost is very variable, if you had a borrowed plane and a 'free' CFI it could be very economical. If you have t pay the CFI and rent the plane at full retail value, it'll be a bit more expensive.

- I want to also be able to fly in european countries including germany -> Are there costs for transfering the license to germany? Is it even possible? Will i need additional hours in germany then?
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You would need to check into the process on the side of your state aviation office and JAA. I don't know what hours, if any, can be credited towards a JAA certificate.

Years back there were FAA/JAA accredited flight schools in the US where you could do a combined course that made you eligible for both the FAA and JAA checkride. That was geared towards the candidates for airline jobs and not much of an option for someone just interested in getting his private pilots certificate.
 
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weilke sorta talks close to a point for training. Lufthansa does or at least did have ab initio training in the US. Maybe the OP can go that route if they have interest in an aviation career.
 
Clark1961 said:
weilke sorta talks close to a point for training. Lufthansa does or at least did have ab initio training in the US. Maybe the OP can go that route if they have interest in an aviation career.
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Getting into that program is a highly competitive process and iirc. the total tuition bill is somewhere in the $150k range. If you get picked up by LH or one of its affiliates, they will forgive the note, if you hire on somewhere else (e.g. the gulf carriers or china), then you or your overseas employer has to cover that note. My CFI back in the 80s went through the program on his families dime and turned it into a career with a non-LH european carrier. Going the LH academy route is a career decision, not a way to get your private license.
 
The TSA program mentioned earlier costs $130 per application and the first application takes a few months. It's then good for a year, but only for one specific flight school and one training program (so if you change schools or if you complete your PPL and want to transition to more training, you'll have to do the TSA application again. It's another $130 but it goes very fast the second time)

Also, have you looked into the visa requirements? This is one of the things the TSA will check when you apply. If they don't think you have the proper visa, they'll deny you.

Regarding using a US license in Germany: I can't tell you much about Germany specifically, but the EU is in the process of trying to stamp out flying with a non-EU license in Europe. Below is exactly what I was told by the Irish Aviation Authority when I looked into this a couple of years ago. I imagine that the situation is at least this bad in Germany, but likely worse (fyi what he means by "the above automatic validation arrangements" is that up until this point you could use the FAA license with no extra paperwork):

For info, European legislation (EU Regulation 1178/2011 (as amended)) will override the above automatic validation arrangements w.e.f. from 8th April 2017. After this date, you will have to either:-


1) meet the validation requirements set out in Annex III, Section A, para. 5 of Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 (as amended) - view a consolidated PDF version online at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02011R1178-20160408&from=EN – see page 210), or

2) meet the licence conversion requirements set out in Annex III, Section B of Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 (as amended) - – see page 211 of the same PDF)


The requirements for both are broadly the same, but note that a validation can only be issued for a maximum of 12 months. If you are resident in Ireland, or regularly visiting, you should give serious consideration to the licence conversion route. That said, there is a likelihood of a further extension to the opt out period for pilots holding third country licences used in non-commercial operation, to allow additional time to agree changes to the bilateral agreement with the USA. It is probable that a further 12 month extension (to 8th April 2018) will be agreed for EASA States to avail of, if they wish. Ireland will apply the extension if it comes to pass.
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So if you don't have to do a conversion or validation already, you will soon. IIRC, you need a minimum of 100 hours to do the conversion, so that's a big factor for some people. A guy I work with who lives in the US on a work visa and is obsessed with learning to fly decided not to do it because he couldn't be sure he would build up 100 hours by the time he planned to move back to Europe, so the license would have been useless to him.

In summary, here are the things you should be looking at in my opinion, in this order:

1. Visa situation (this is the hardest thing to fix if you're not already set up)
2. Germany's policy on US license - do you need to convert, and can you stay in the US long enough to get the hours you need for a conversion?
3. Medical requirements - you *must* read up on FAA medical requirements. Trust me - your own opinion of your state of health is irrelevant. Do some searches on this site on how to prepare for the medical exam so see what the pitfalls are.
4. The school you would use - you'll need to have this finalized at least 2 months before you want to begin, to allow for the TSA AFSP approval.

Good luck, and keep us informed!
 
Jonas1994 said:
Hello to all out there,
Click to expand...

Hello Back!

Nice to have friends with airplanes, no doubt about it. :) In regards to your question about hours required:

U.S. Private Pilot License Requirements:

nz1A24OjZqCOgZddiFGUgsj4p2zBSG.png



In regards to initial (beginning) reference materials that will be needed:

ACS
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs_6A.pdf

AIM
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIM.pdf

FAR
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl#0



In regards to initial (beginning) Private Pilot Ground School study material that might be needed (just a few):

King Schools Private Pilot Ground Course (online/offline)
http://kingschools.com/ground-school/private-pilot/courses/get-it-all

or

Jeppesen Private Pilot Ground Course (online)
http://ww1.jeppesen.com/personal-solutions/aviation/center-content/online-training-demo.jsp

or

Sporty's Private Ground Course (online)
https://courses2.sportys.com/training/course/rendervideotraining?view=Course/videoTraining.html

or

Gleim Private Pilot Ground Course (online)
https://www.gleimaviation.com/pilot-training/private-pilot/



Regarding online sources of Pilot Supplies, Books, Gear, Cool Tools & Gadgets:

Sporty's
https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/?...d1bd37bf1f15df070ba37dc0243165cc_t-1523297176

Aircraft Spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/

Pilot Shop
http://www.pilotshop.com/



Regarding online Flight Planning resources:

ForeFlight (connects to Garmin EFIS via BlueTooth)
https://www.foreflight.com/solutions/personal/

Garmin Pilot & Connext (connects to Garmin EFIS natively)
https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/garmin-pilot/


SkyVector
https://skyvector.com/

Rocket Route
https://www.rocketroute.com/



Practice 'Live' cockpit radio communications with Air Traffic Control (educational tool):

Practice Live Real-Time ATC Communications
https://www.pilotedge.net/


Hope this helps.
 
weilke said:
Great.

...

Now, there is some rule that you have to inform the immigration service at the time you enter the country that you intend to do flight training. If you didn't inform them and you didn't have a visa specifically issued for flight training (e.g. a M1 vocational training visa or a F1 student visa), then you are in violation of your visa conditions if you take up flight training.

...
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That's not true, generally. You don't have to have a visa that's specific to flight training, or even one that specific to students. But there are some vias that disallow it. Here's some general info on what kinds of visas allow you do do full various kinds of courses:

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/sevis/pdf/Nonimmigrant Class Who Can Study.pdf

https://www.tamus.edu/business/budg...rictions-for-different-types-of-visa-holders/
 
Hi guys,

first of all i want to thank you all for helping me out! I really do appreciate it!

To sum up the costs:
TSA - 130 $
minimum of 20 hours with CFI = 1000-1500$ depending on the price per hour for the instructor

Obviously i will have costs for the visa, which i would have anyway if i came to the us so i dont count them here.

To sum up the steps i would have to do:
1) Find out if any of my american friends is a CFI and could potentially enroll me as a student
2) apply for visa / find out which one i´d need for the license
3) apply for tsa
4) Germany's policy on US license - do you need to convert, and can you stay in the US long enough to get the hours you need for a conversion?
3. Medical requirements - you *must* read up on FAA medical requirements
4. The school you would use - you'll need to have this finalized at least 2 months before you want to begin, to allow for the TSA AFSP approval.

And regarding the license that means that i only have to do like 50 hours+- practical + a theoretical test? Could i start with the practical part and do the test in germany afterwards?

I´m letting you guys know my travel plans for the summer in which i wanted to do the license. I´m free from mid/end of july until end of september, so i dont really have that much time, because i was planing to travel a little south after i did the license. Would this be possible at all?

How long does it usually take to do 50 hours of flight training if you are only doing that and nothing else?

Lets first gather the facts (meaning costs, regulations, timeframe) to get an idea if i can realize this or not...

Its best for me if someone could text me the steps like "injb" did earlier, i mean i do understand english quite well, but boy those pdfs are confusing :)
I cant waste much time cause i will be in the states from mid july earliest, so 3 months from now.

Cheers to you all!
 
Don’t forget fuel or a plane rental fee (which may include fuel) in your calculations, unless your friend’s friends will allow flights for free.

It can range $100-150/hr wet (fuel included), or a bit more or less, depending on location and the model/age of plane.

Calculate fuel at 6 or more gallons per hour depending on what you fly, and $4-6/gallon depending on location again.

Your total cost might be $10k +/- $2k
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Don’t forget fuel or a plane rental fee (which may include fuel) in your calculations, unless your friend’s friends will allow flights for free.

It can range $100-150/hr wet (fuel included), or a bit more or less, depending on location and the model/age of plane.

Calculate fuel at 6 or more gallons per hour depending on what you fly, and $4-6/gallon depending on location again.

Your total cost might be $10k +/- $2k
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I´m pretty sure they would let me fly for free and only pay for fuel, as they own the planes and dont need to rent them.
Do the 10k +/- 2k include every fee? Like start-/landing fee, medical requirement tests?

I just need to make sure I dont miss any hidden costs, and end up with like a whole lot more.
 
Most airports you'll fly to and from will not have landing fees; what is a "start fee"?
 
SCCutler said:
Most airports you'll fly to and from will not have landing fees; what is a "start fee"?
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'Starten' is the activity of taking off in an aircraft and many german airports charge a fee not only for landing but also for taking off.
 
I would think any big schools have this process streamlined, my school gets students from all over the world.
 
Yes we do have fees for the take-off too, but i only know that for big passenger planes, i´m not sure if they have it for smaller private planes too..
 
Jonas1994 said:
I´m pretty sure they would let me fly for free and only pay for fuel, as they own the planes and dont need to rent them.
Do the 10k +/- 2k include every fee? Like start-/landing fee, medical requirement tests?

I just need to make sure I dont miss any hidden costs, and end up with like a whole lot more.
Click to expand...

Landing fees will be specific to the airport. I think if the plane is based there, there should not be any fee.

So just account for fuel. Use the hourly burn rate for the plane you will be flying and budgee for 50-60 hours worth at least, to be safe. You may know soon after you start if that will be enough time or not.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Landing fees will be specific to the airport. I think if the plane is based there, there should not be any fee.

So just account for fuel. Use the hourly burn rate for the plane you will be flying and budgee for 50-60 hours worth at least, to be safe. You may know soon after you start if that will be enough time or not.
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So let's assume the following:

TSA - 130 $
minimum of 30 hours with CFI = 2500$(CFI-price) + 30h*6gallon*6$ (=gas) =3580$ depending on the price per hour for the instructor
30 hours of solo flight =1080$ (assuming there won't be landing fees and I'd only pay for the gas)
130+3580+1080= 4790$ - - > am I missing costs here?
 
Jonas1994 said:
So let's assume the following:

TSA - 130 $
minimum of 30 hours with CFI = 2500$(CFI-price) + 30h*6gallon*6$ (=gas) =3580$ depending on the price per hour for the instructor
30 hours of solo flight =1080$ (assuming there won't be landing fees and I'd only pay for the gas)
130+3580+1080= 4790$ - - > am I missing costs here?
Click to expand...
Or is there a fee to do the written theoretical part? Cause it's quite a step from 4,7k to almost 10k ☺️ Or is that because I would never have to rent a plane on my own?
 
Rental is s big part of the costs. It took me about 60 hours and I spent about $100/hr in a 152 (which included fuel). The rest was CFI fees, about $42-44/hr.

The other costs are really inconsequential in comparison (medical, books, headset). You can easily burn that amount by 3-4 extra hours of flying.

I think I paid my examiner $350 or so.
 
The written exam is about $130. The DPE fees are pushing $450-$500 USD
Books, headset,

Most training aircraft around here are on the high side of $150/hr.
Avg time to complete in the US is closer to 70-75 hrs. Hence the $10,000 +/- $2K estimate.
I’ve heard $13K is not uncommon.
 
To answer one of your unanswered questions, you will need to complete the written exam (theoretical) before taking the practical exam.
 
What state are you going to be?
Out here in Cali, CFIs are charging anywhere from $70/h up to $120/h. Aircraft is $156 - $174 (wet). Fuel anywhere from $5 - $6 / ga.
DPE fee is $700. Medical exam fee is $125 - $140.

There is one airport here that charges a landing fee, $13/landing.
You will need to consider the cost of the ground school (I did Gleim online for $200). You will need a proper headset (couple of hundreds to a thousand).
 
Thanks to you all guys!

TSA - 130 $
minimum of 30 hours with CFI = 30*70$(worst scenario =CFI-price~2500$) + 30-40h*6gallon*6$ (gas=1080-1440) =3580-3940$ (depending on the price per hour for the instructor)
30 hours of solo flight =1080$ (assuming there won't be landing fees and I'd only pay for the gas)
130+3940 (worst case=70h)+1440= 5510$ - - > am I missing costs here?
medical stuff+headset+books=800$
5510+800=6310$

@ Hppike : I will be in California as my friend is living there :)
 
Jonas1994 said:
I will be in California as my friend is living there
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Everything is more expensive in CA, but at least you get 360 days of sunshine and perfect flying wx in return.
If you will be in the LA basin, let me know, maybe we can meet.
 
Jonas1994 said:
How long does it usually take to do 50 hours of flight training if you are only doing that and nothing else?
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This is a really good question, some of the CFIs here will have a better answer, but as a former student myself:

Always figure more hours. Estimate 60, I think the national US average is 65-70? But for people that can concentrate on flying only, 50-60 might be average. From what I've heard, the older you are the longer it will take. It isn't because older students learn more slowly, it's that older students generally want to repeat things they think need more work. Younger students generally want to move on to the next thing as quickly as possible.

Depending on where you train you will be interrupted by weather. The airplane will always need some maintenance that might take it out of service for multiple days or longer. Your CFI might be busy, you might have days where you don't feel well. There may be times when the owner of the airplane wants to use it himself and take it on a family trip for several days.

For people that have a full time job, a good piece of advice is usually to plan 3 lessons a week, and expect 2. For someone that is doing this full time you can try more, maybe 4-5 per week? (This is where an experienced CFI can give a better answer.) I found that any flights that lasted longer than about 1.5 hrs, except for flights that were supposed to last longer, made my brain get saturated to where I just wasn't learning anything new and I needed a break.

I hope this works for you, it will be a great adventure.
 
I would say 4hrs per day is maximum, you’ll need time to prepare for next lesson. So 2 weeks minimum, but
I think it takes 2 weeks to schedule a check ride. So you’re looking at a month, the 2 weeks you’re waiting you can practice of course and maybe take a few lessons towards your IFR rating. This assumes you have good weather of course.
 
teejayevans said:
I would say 4hrs per day is maximum, you’ll need time to prepare for next lesson. So 2 weeks minimum, but
I think it takes 2 weeks to schedule a check ride. So you’re looking at a month, the 2 weeks you’re waiting you can practice of course and maybe take a few lessons towards your IFR rating. This assumes you have good weather of course.
Click to expand...

Negative on the IR, unless he is just doing hood time. IFR will require another TSA green light


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It is usually more expensive than you think. Add 20% to whatever estimate you end up with.
 
coloradobluesky said:
It is usually more expensive than you think. Add 20% to whatever estimate you end up with.
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Thats true, the thing is if i would estimate the costs being like 8k total and i then end up with 10k its not a big deal, but if the estimated costs are like 10k and i end up with 12 I´m done :D
 
Can someone explain to me how you do the license in general? Like the steps?
For instance, if you do a driver license in germany you directly start with driving and simultaneously learn the theoretic part.
Would this work with flying too? So basically, I arrive at my friends place, I meet my CFI, could i immediately start getting those hours or would i need to do a bit of theory first?
 
Jonas1994 said:
Can someone explain to me how you do the license in general? Like the steps?
For instance, if you do a driver license in germany you directly start with driving and simultaneously learn the theoretic part.
Would this work with flying too? So basically, I arrive at my friends place, I meet my CFI, could i immediately start getting those hours or would i need to do a bit of theory first?
Click to expand...
You can do the written test in advance, online. Much of it won't sink in until you fly.

A lot of CFIs will have a preflight briefing to explain, then a flight to show, then they turn it over to you to do. After the flight you eill probably talk about it and then discuss the next flight and what you are expected to know. Day 1 will probably be a flight.

One CFI recommended reading Stick and Rudder first.

https://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder...d=1523535664&sr=8-1&keywords=stick+and+rudder
 
1. Take a flight lesson,
2. get a medical,
Take flight lessons all through these steps
3. buy the books and/or videos your instructor recommends,
4. take written practice tests until you easily pass,
5. pass written test,
6. learn how to fly,
7. get signed off for practical flying test,
8. receive your pilots certificate.
 
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Jonas1994 said:
Can someone explain to me how you do the license in general? Like the steps?
For instance, if you do a driver license in germany you directly start with driving and simultaneously learn the theoretic part.
Would this work with flying too? So basically, I arrive at my friends place, I meet my CFI, could i immediately start getting those hours or would i need to do a bit of theory first?
Click to expand...

You can do both simultaneously. There are 3 major milestones for the theory side of things:

* pre-solo written test - this has to be done before you can do your first solo flight (typically in between 10 and 20 hours)
* official written test - this just has to be done before your checkride, although most people seem to think the earlier, the better.
* checkride oral test - this is done on the day of your practical test (checkride). You have to pass this component to get to the flying part.

As long as you meet those 3, you can mix theory and flying however you want. As a few people have mentioned, the theory is a lot easier to take in if you're learning it as you fly. Otherwise it's just a lot of words that won't mean much.
 
I'm rusty on this part: The FAA medical needs to be completed before solo, right? It will also serve as your student license.

This should be a simple thing, but it sometimes gets very complicated. If you have ever had any medical procedures, or prescription, or diagnoses of anything to do with mental or behavioral issues you will need to make sure everything is OK with FAA first, before you start the exam. If you have ever had any drunk driving or alcohol related arrests or legal problems, you are in for a long fight. Many other health related things that seem simple, can be a problem, so be prepared to pass rather than not being prepared and failing.
 
Matthew said:
I'm rusty on this part: The FAA medical needs to be completed before solo, right? It will also serve as your student license.

This should be a simple thing, but it sometimes gets very complicated. If you have ever had any medical procedures, or prescription, or diagnoses of anything to do with mental or behavioral issues you will need to make sure everything is OK with FAA first, before you start the exam. If you have ever had any drunk driving or alcohol related arrests or legal problems, you are in for a long fight. Many other health related things that seem simple, can be a problem, so be prepared to pass rather than not being prepared and failing.
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Yes you need the medical before solo. But it doesn't serve as your student license - you have to apply for that separately.
 
Matthew said:
I'm rusty on this part: The FAA medical needs to be completed before solo, right? It will also serve as your student license
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The student pilot license is no longer part of the medical. They are separate things.

You apply for the student pilot license through IACRA, you get your medical certificate from an aviation medical examiner.

But, yes, you do need both before you can solo.
 
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