Gaston's Newbie Needs Some Advice

HighFlyingA380

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
1,035
Location
St. Louis
Display Name

Display name:
Jim F.
Hey ya'll, new here. I was thinkin' about taking some friends down there for lunch, but have never been there before. I was advised by a buddy who has that it would not be a good idea, in case a go-around was required. My worst-case scenario would be a 160-hp C172R about 100lbs below max gross, and in the aft CG range (but still easily within the envelope). Again, that's worst-case; it's very likely that I may get a plane with a higher useful load. depart with less fuel, and have a more forward CG.

I know that by the book, the numbers all work out, and I am absolutely comfortable flying in/out of "normal" airports in this configuration, as I do it often. I began worrying a bit when he said that he would not feel comfortable going in a 160-hp C172R with more than 1 person and half fuel, but he is (by his own admittance) a much lower time and less experienced pilot than myself.

So, what are your thoughts on it? I have seen just about every video on YouTube, and honestly, it doesn't look that bad. That's obviously not a suitable resource, so here I am, thirsty for your knowledge. :)

Also, where does everybody do run-ups? Since it seems pretty congested, I would assume just do it once lined up for departure.

Any other tips/suggestions would be awesome!

Thanks for your help/insight!
 
I'd hesitate to take off out of there only 100 lbs below max gross. It would all depend on the density altitude. It's not just about the takeoff. You also have to clear the terrain (or follow the river to climb).

Overall it's a great strip.

I'd rather do it for my first time really light (just me and/or one passenger) before trying it with an airplane full of people. Most of the accidents that I've seen there seem to be heavy airplanes trying to depart and ending up in the field off the end of the runway.

This is the best video that I've seen showing the approach. Even Jim Gaston left a comment on the video endorsing it.

 
Lots of variables as with any grass strip. When was the last rain? The last mowing? Wind and DA? And getting in won't be a big problem.
 
Sorry, I forgot to answer your other question. It's really a one way in and one way out airport. You land on 24 and you take off on 6. There is a nice parking area at the west end of the runway and you can run up there (off to the side of the runway).

Like this guy...




attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • CIMG2039.JPG
    CIMG2039.JPG
    142.6 KB · Views: 325
Thanks for your input so far. After reading your comments and mulling it over for a while more, I've decided that even with low fuel, 3 people would just be too much, especially for the first time. But it seems that most of my/your concerns are regarding departure, not arrival. Now I'm kickin' around the idea of arriving with all 3, but then departing with two, and ferrying that pax to BPK, then head back to pick up the other.

I know it probably sounds like I'm being too picky about this, but we're all poor college students, so I'm trying to get the most out of our money.

Thanks again for your input!
 
Thanks for your input so far. After reading your comments and mulling it over for a while more, I've decided that even with low fuel, 3 people would just be too much, especially for the first time. But it seems that most of my/your concerns are regarding departure, not arrival. Now I'm kickin' around the idea of arriving with all 3, but then departing with two, and ferrying that pax to BPK, then head back to pick up the other.

I know it probably sounds like I'm being too picky about this, but we're all poor college students, so I'm trying to get the most out of our money.

Thanks again for your input!

Nothing wrong with that plan. That's probably what I'd do if I were in your shoes and was intent on taking three people to lunch in a 160hp 172.
 
Warning! NEGATIVE POST.

Uh. Having watched Dr. Bob dognncats try to get outta dere in a 160 hp Piper, with 3 adults on a hot summer day.....AFTER I offered to airlift his two pax to BPK....I think any more than two up with partial fuel with a newbie pilot is just asking for disaster. That day the runway was dry and firm. He barely got it off. "The ASI just froze at 60...." Well hey no kidding.

I am reminded of the four guys in a Lance about 5 years ago. They all got hurt/killed on departure in the gully at the east end....in ground effect.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20090629X01338&ntsbno=CEN09FA393&akey=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20021016X05326&key=1

You'll save a whole lot of money when somebody gets injured, yeah, that's the ticket.....not.

I think you just don't have enough margin anyplace abouve 2200 lbs in that setup.

If I were doing that near gross, I'd be arriving /departing early in the AM; Take just enough fuel to buy more at BPK, the 5000 ft airport 4 miles away. Both pax would take the bus to BPK.

If you do not get down between the two trees on final approach and the runway is wet, and you are heavy....well, we'll read about you, because go around isn't an easy proposition....not heavy with 160 hp.

If the grass is wet, do you have the discipline to depart solo and ride the bus to BPK?

Soooooorry to be so negative, but this is a trip you do solo for the first time to get it right. Scout it first. WTH are you doing bring passengers into a landing for which you have on marginal capability (both PILOT and AIRCRAFT). In the Single Pilot CRM matrix it's FAIL FAIL FAIL.

Be a decent human. Don't BRING people if you haven't done it yourself already.....unless you're Joe Taildragger...
 
Last edited:
I like your idea of shuttling a passenger to BPK, then going back for the other. You never regret being safe!

The incident Dr. Bruce describes - I was on my way back from shuttling folks to BPK (for the reasons we are discussing), in a nice, powerful Bonanza, and heard the Cherokee do his departure call, then (a bit later) "Yee Haw!" When I landed, there were people walking around with their heads in their hands. It was a fright.

That fellow went out and bought a Bonanza.
 
Agreed with all of the above.

Other creative ideas for you that turn it into a much more complicated adventure... And you'd need some really good friends to do this...

Fly into BPK. Drop folks off, go scout Gaston's and get your first landing in there.

See what you think. Depart, see how that's going solo. Things good? Things hairy?

Now make decisons. Can you pick up one pax, shuttle them in? Depart, pick up second pax, bring 'em over, same thing?

After all this, if you don't already know if the airplane and runway are both in a condition to get two of you out, Put pax on bus to BPK.

If performance is good, depart and shuttle one pax over to BPK, wash, rinse repeat.

There's always interesting ways to skin a cat. :)

Please... Careful with fuel if you do this... Don't run out of gas having all that fun. And beware of fatigue.

And have a Plan B for ...

A) You arrive at Gaston's and it's really wet and you're not sure you can get out solo. What's the plan? You're there, friends are at BPK... Hmm.

B) You manage to get in and out solo but can't bring anyone else in. Need a plan for a ruined lunch trip at BPK then.

Not exactly economical, either. ;)

You need really adventurous/understanding friends for the above. Very. :)

Just sharing creative thoughts. A way to both "scout solo" and still give her a go if things are working out.

The airports are virtually right on top of each other.

Speaking of that, if you have two Comm radios, use them... Gaston's and BPK aren't on the same CTAF frequency. Monitor both. Things can get busy and the patterns almost overlap.

You've probably seen that comment elsewhere, but it's a good place for a reminder. ;)
 
Thanks for everybody's replies/help/suggestions. (Boy, will it be nice one I finish my multi rating in a couple weeks... No lack of power/climb performance with those two 180-hp's.) I'm just sad I missed the Fly-in a few months back. Would have been great to fly there solo and then have a while to pick your expert brains on all this stuff.

As it stands now, until I get some experience, I'm setting my hard limitations to maximum 1 pax with half fuel, 3,000' DA and dry grass.

It looks like I'll drop pax at BPK and go at it solo once or twice, then shuttle the pax. I don't mind tho, good way to get more practice there without flying the whole trip each time. With that in mind, are the patterns usually pretty full on a typical Saturday where it would be difficult for a newbie there? I have lots of experience in crowded patterns (normal day at the university we'll have 4-6 in the pattern. Often many more). Not worried about the coms or looking for traffic, but just being in a new place super crowded might not be too great.

As for the 'wet grass' issue... I know according to the book on grass there is a 15% increase on takeoff and 45% increase on landing distances. Generally about how much change could I expect with wet grass? (As I said tho, not gonna put that to the test for a while.)

In general, what are the wind patterns like at 3M0? I'm assuming being in the valley and shielded by trees, they would generally be light and in line.

Again, thanks for helping out and putting up with my questions! Just wanna learn all I can, as bush flying is something I really want to get into and learn all about.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for everybody's replies/help/suggestions. (Boy, will it be nice one I finish my multi rating in a couple weeks... No lack of power/climb performance with those two 180-hp's.)

Just remember, it's not the two-engine performance that is your limiting factor in a twin. It's the single-engine performance when one mill quits.

Many light twins up here are just glorified gliders and not climbing on one engine. Down there, you gotta read the numbers in the POH carefully.

Wet grass, on landing the problem is directional control and braking. Light on the brakes and be ready to get off them and roll out. Aggressive rudder if needed.

3M0 if you land at the approach end in a reasonable distance, you may not have to brake at all. It's not that short.

If you must go around, go around early. Very early.

Otherwise, look on Google Earth. There's a run out past the parking area across the road and into more grass if you can keep it straight and there aren't any humans over there.

I don't think stopping distance will be your problem if you don't fly halfway down the runway before landing. Airspeed control and a nice normal pattern.

Takeoff, it's plowing through puddles and dragging wheels through mud. Takes a lot of energy. And the puddles and bumps all trying to knock you off straight.

And needing to pick an accelerate/stop point beyond which you're going to slide off the end into bad terrain if you have to abort because you don't have enough distance to roll out to stop.

There's a lot of jokes on here about "clearing passes" down that runway, but if it looks wet, go around and look at it real good without getting distracted enough you don't climb up to clear the power lines and ridge.

There's no harm in that, just pay attention to airspeed, clean up and climb first, just like back home... then look.

Winds were low when we were all there this year. If they're generally high in the area, I would expect some wicked mechanical turbulence off of the ridges and treeline. I'd be pretty cautious if the wind in the area is high. Others might have comments if they've been there when it's windy.

I wouldn't really call that strip "backcountry". It's well maintained, and the real limits there are the surrounding terrain. It's kinda more like a little box canyon westbound than anything. Like any box canyon, it's going to ruin your day if you can't out-climb it.

Get a feel coming off of BPK how well a Vy climb is looking. Good climb rate? Plane feeling solid or mushy? Long takeoff roll, or short? Etc. You're probably good to go into that little valley if the airplane is climbing well off the pavement. Get a feel for performance to know you have an "out".

Then your best soft field technique, that first landing there until you know how the runway condition looks and feels.

If it don't look right, bail. Use that nice climb rate and get up and out.

One of the safety nets about the fly-in, is if ya feel like it ain't right, there's either a bunch of other folks sitting at BPK who agreed (ha!), or folks who'll happily come over and fly in with ya that first time.

I think we are over-describing and being a bit more cautious online since we don't know ya and can't get a feel for your sense of self-preservation. Heh.

I don't think Gaston's presents any outrageous challenges for a truly current Private Pilot. There's lots scarier places to land. But a 172 loaded, has its limitations. If you know them well, and leave yourself an "out", it's not so bad. ;) ;) ;)

If your pattern visualization and skills are good, airspeed control is good, and the runway (any grass runway) isn't an unmowed bog, I think you can get in there light. Fully loaded, we saw a few folks depart that chewed up a lot of runway but did fine with slow climbs in virtually no wind, but hot, and an extremely dry runway.

I think the Turbo 210 chewed up the most. He was rolling for a loooooong time. Heavy.

Don't get anxious and pull it off just because it's bumpy. Just wait. You need the airspeed to be right. Keep enough back pressure to lift the nose wheel if it's wet.

All those days of practicing soft field techniques pay off then. How may people have even seen a soft field by the time they've gotten their ticket if they didn't fly from grass?

Windsock is way down by the West end on the South side, by the way. Right across from where the treeline edge that borders the parking area meets the runway.

Difficult to see downwind, impossible to see well on final. Another thing to keep in mind. Look for signs of movement of the trees. You'll know the general direction from seeing it at BPK.

Fatigue at the end of an XC is a factor too. See how you're feeling at BPK.

If you're on your game, you should do fine. Not trying to scare you off of the place. Just be as prepared as you can. Run the numbers on landing and takeoff distances and see what your margins are for the day's temperatures, etc. Don't guess.

I'm throwing all of this out there because I get the feeling that you're going. So, just make sure your brain is switched fully on that day, and you'll be fine.
 
Jim,

I'm thinking about going down either Sat Oct 6 for lunch, or Sun, Oct 7 for brunch. That's the weekend that some others here will be at Gaston's for the wine tasting weekend.

If you haven't caught the thread, see here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50159

If you're interested in going one of those two days then I'd be open to discussing meeting you at BPK and taking two of your pax down to Gaston's and then bringing them back out.

I have a few more ponies.

PM me if this interests you. I'm not 100% sure that weekend is going to work for me but right now it looks like I'll be going.
 
the runway is 3000 feet long. don't try to takeoff until the plane is ready to fly and hit the beginning of the runway on your landing and you shouldn't have any problems.
 
You're a college student. Stay home and study. In fact, stop goofing off on the internet and get back to work!
 
Jim,

I'm thinking about going down either Sat Oct 6 for lunch, or Sun, Oct 7 for brunch. That's the weekend that some others here will be at Gaston's for the wine tasting weekend.

If you haven't caught the thread, see here: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50159

If you're interested in going one of those two days then I'd be open to discussing meeting you at BPK and taking two of your pax down to Gaston's and then bringing them back out.

I have a few more ponies.

PM me if this interests you. I'm not 100% sure that weekend is going to work for me but right now it looks like I'll be going.
That's incredibly generous. I'm in no hurry to do the flight (except from excitement), so I have no problem putting it off 'till then. There's also the obvious advantage of going then so I can meet more people. (Honestly, I'm sick of most of the folks at my school. None of the more experienced guys want to even talk to you unless they can charge for a ground lesson. Seems like a great group of folks on here.) I'll talk to my potential pax about this option; I'm sure they'd be fine with it.

You're a college student. Stay home and study. In fact, stop goofing off on the internet and get back to work!
lol. I consider this studying! Considering I'm a pilot major, anything to further my knowledge is studying (even if it does "just so happen" to be fun and awesome as well).
 
My preference would be Sunday brunch but, really, either day is fine.
 
I flew in and out with a 150 with a 150 hp engine with me and a passenger. There is a fuel stop available almost as soon as you climb out, so I flew down from Sullivan, MO and didn't refuel until I flew out.

Once you take off and get above the trees you can then head to the right and follow the river a short ways to gain altitude and not need to climb above the bluff.

In my case, I felt confident enough that I could climb out that I didn't follow the river. Here is a Youtube of my take off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDyozdzRHo4&feature=plcp
 
Here's mine, with about 40 gallons of gas on board and me, and I threw everything not bolted down out in the grass, even the towbar. And I started as far back to the road as I could.

The 150 in the video is further forward than where I started by at least 100'.

But I've got 70 horsepower and a Robertson STOL kit on your 172. ;)


Also note, after liftoff, I wasn't climbing. That was planned. The STOL capability gets you off of terra firma sooner, but actually hurts distance over a 50' obstacle.

I couldn't pull it off at the Robertson recommended speed either, due to the bumps. I would have had a tail strike.

I was at least 7 knots or so faster than they say it'll come off the ground, but I've only done that off of pavement.

It took another 500' or so to get cleaned up and climb out.

(Thanks again to David, who shot this video. I'd never seen it from the outside. :) )
 
Thanks for the videos! Nice to see a good departure video for a change; most are of the approach/landing.

My preference would be Sunday brunch but, really, either day is fine.
I talked to the two main people who I was originally talking this over to. If they do go, it would be Sunday. (It's kind of aggravating that I can't ever get an earlier commitment out of people for these types of trips.) In talking it over with them tonight, we might even have 2 planes coming (but honestly some will probably back out, so it probably wouldn't be that many people). It sounds like some form of ferrying would be fine with them. As I said, I probably won't know until much closer, but I'll try to get a commitment ASAP and let you know. Even if you're unable, it sounds like there's many great people on here that might be willing to help out too. If not, it sounds like there is always a bus/shuttle option.

On a side note, what else is there to do at Gaston's besides the obvious eat, fly, and fish? Are there hiking trails that would make a good little hike? Any other little activities like that would be awesome. Since it's a bit of a trip, we'd like to make the most out of our time there.

Thanks ya'll!
 
Last edited:
Best advice I can give you is, if you order a Scotch on the Rocks, Don't. Instead, order a Scotch, and have the waitress bring you a cup of ice cubes.

scheckg.jpg

scheckg.jpg
 
No, it was pretty nasty too. Gaston's restaurant doesn't have a good reputation locally, but I knew that going in *. Had some unexpected company on Thanksgiving so instead of jumping through hoops, I just took them all to Gaston's. But after getting the bill, I was really dissapointed when I saw the $2 for the "rocks", and told the staff that I would be embarrassed to present a customer with a bill like that. They apologized, empathized, and said it was "policy".

* Actually, the breakfast buffet is pretty good (pricey though at $10). I occasionally fly in to treat myself to some pancakes, bacon, hash browns, etc. Always a fun landing and takeoff, and breakfast is a good excuse to drop in.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top