Gaston's Flightops

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Dave Taylor
I thought some notes on flying in out and around Gastons now might preserve some important info others could use next year:

Much of the weekend started each day with calm surface winds and clear skies. At 7am, we had 10-15kts aloft.
As the day progressed the surface wind picked up to I'd guess ranging from 0-15kts out of the SW. By that time, the wind at 100' seemed to be more southerly and 10-20kts; and at altitude even stronger. A lot of people reported the wind as 'squirrelly', meaning it would come and go quickly, and the direction was fickle too. For the most part people used 6 for departure with a tailwind, and always 24 for arrivals. I have extreme respect for pilots of the slower moving airplanes, the taildraggers - they were tossed about a lot more in the valley than the heavier airplanes. The worst part of the weather was a windshear between short final and touchdown - where some reported airspeed losses of 30kts (Spike, comment?). The most challenging part of the operation was concern over departures, downwind on 6, with increasing daytime temps and the constant problem of 'am I overweight?'. Traffic seemed to ebb and flow, many times there was no one around, then you would have a gaggle of 5 in the pattern. Our system of comm in the pattern and over the lake really helped with spacing as did having folks on the ground pointing out pattern arrivals as we departed.


the Pattern
The Dam approach turned out to be most excellent, as it was easily spotted, and provided a good view of the pattern and airstrip on arrival. Most pilots flew over the SE side of the ridge for downwind, a couple of times I flew over, or even beyond the river for spacing. Turning base was mostly over, or inside the river watching altitude for the set of wires with their 'balls' at this point over the river. A SW wind was pushing us so I was turning final a bit early to avoid the desire to overbank (or avoiding the tendancy to overshoot final).

Arrivals
One problem the entire weekend, was that after 10am, the strong winds aloft descended into the river valley making short final a bunch of work. My first landing there was a carrier arrival because I did not catch a 10kt shear at the "goalposts". Many times during short final the asi was swinging wildly. It was tempting to carry excess speed through here but that carries the risk of an overrun for the heavier, faster airplanes. One thing I noticed was I could avoid most of the shear if I brought it down lower, earlier, and passed through the shear further out.....and was lower when going through the goalposts.
In most cases I think it safe to say you should not try to completely avoid the goalposts by overflying them and slamdunking beyond them. A difficult maneuver and too much energy to dissipate in a short distance. The goalposts are plenty wide enough if you track the centerline. Otherwise the rwy length seemed quite adequate for landing into the wind on 24. The runway has a few rolls in it and I would seem to be safely down, then become airborne again. If I felt it could be safely done I would have dumped the flaps after the first bump, but....too risky.


Departures
Departing on 6 has a nice 3/4mi flat treeless overrun so that was usually the preferred t-o runway. SW of 24 are tall trees, wires, the ridge. The big problem here was the tailwind, which meant longer ground runs, lower climb gradients. The wind seemed to strengthen at 10am until 5pm. Aggravating factors were the rising daytime temps, I think I saw 90F....and take off weights, I limited most of my flights to 1 pax and never full fuel. The most runway I used was when I had 2 on board...I think we used 2/3 of the runway and were about 1/2 way up the goalposts on climb out. Some said they thought the best takeoffs were experienced by not yanking it off early, just hold the pitch attitude and allow the a/c to accelerate normally. Often an a/c would become airborne only to sink somewhat, even recontacting the ground, so patience on gear retraction was a must. I was using 1/2 flaps mostly. I would have liked to pop the flaps out as I rolled but the situation was not conducive to that as my flaps are on the floor and I lose complete contact with the outside world when I go for them. Climbing out, most chose to take the first valley to the left, heading NE. There is no where to set an airplane down for a few minutes and a low level turn-around was dicey at best. The ntsb reports has an airplane following the river instead of the valley - sadly, it impacted the ridge - also there are wires to contend with in that direction. I think the folks that shuttled bags and people to kbpk were very happy with their decision as it greatly enhanced their climb out of the valley.

Runway Inspection passes
These were always a big safety concern for me, I suppose we accept/minimize the risks and carry on. I tried to always carry enough energy such that I could zoom up and set it in the river. There are some cleared areas to the west, but pretty small.

Local ops
Departing up the valley and towards the lake seemed ideal, mostly I flew 1000' over the lake. I suppose if the conditions were misty we might chat more and select discrete altitudes.

I was amazed we had no complaints about noise.
 
good notes Dave.

I think that the people who chose to depart light with the tailwind in the middle of the day were glad they did. and the people who went heavyish wish they hadnt. In years past, IIRC, the tailwind has not been so significant.

Its nice going to these events and getting to watch everyones decision making. Things like this really get all of us out and make us decide what we can and cannot safely accomplish. And we all seem to have done pretty good.
 
I was amazed we had no complaints about noise.

Dave,

One couple I spoke with were amazed that it was a "free airshow". "We're used to paying to get in to them" they said.

Guess an airshow is suppose to be noisy.......

marc
 
I thought some notes on flying in out and around Gastons now might preserve some important info others could use next year:
Dave this is a GREAT idea! I have a few more comments after breakfast...Tom said it's almost ready. :)

I was amazed we had no complaints about noise.
Here is the guy (in the yellow shirt) who lives in that nice house on the hill on our downwind for 24. He said he enjoyed watching us. :yes: He seems like a really nice guy. :yes:
 

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Thanks for writing all of this down, Dave.

One thing that Jesse taught me was to cheat to the right half of the runway a little bit when rolling for departure. If you stay just a little right of centerline on your takeoff roll, it drastically decreases the amount of bumps you encounter (allowing you to accelerate much more quickly). Many of the times that I saw somebody take to the air a little bit early they were just left of center and hit one of the bumps that tend to launch you into the air before you're ready.
 
One thing that Jesse taught me was to cheat to the right half of the runway a little bit when rolling for departure.....it drastically decreases the amount of bumps

Good addition, I need to try that.
 
Thanks for writing all of this down, Dave.

One thing that Jesse taught me was to cheat to the right half of the runway a little bit when rolling for departure. If you stay just a little right of centerline on your takeoff roll, it drastically decreases the amount of bumps you encounter (allowing you to accelerate much more quickly). Many of the times that I saw somebody take to the air a little bit early they were just left of center and hit one of the bumps that tend to launch you into the air before you're ready.


Yea that seems to be a perennial good move. Interesting notes on the Wx. I have only been to one Gastons and the Wx was pretty much the opposite so you have to take conditions as you find them. In 06' There was no tail wind and no shear and a lot of folks had no problem getting out full. Some of the higher powered folks hell even Nick in his 180 flew a straight out and over the hill.

Sounds like you all had to really deal with some Wx issues that were not expected and made some good decisions in doing so.
 
yea adam. the year that you were there, Jesse, Leah, and I departed in a 172 with full fuel and had absolutely no problems clearing the ridge. Every year is something different and i really enjoy seeing people successfully deal with the conditions.
 
A lot of people reported the wind as 'squirrelly', meaning it would come and go quickly, and the direction was fickle too.
It was definitely that!

I have extreme respect for pilots of the slower moving airplanes, the taildraggers - they were tossed about a lot more in the valley than the heavier airplanes.
Dave, it really WAS rough in the Citabria and the reason why I didn't want to give rides to those who had never been flying before or had motion sickness. It wasn't a good time to give a calm, pleasant ride.

My comment to Kim was "Yeeeeeeee haaaaaaaaw!!! Ride 'em cowgirl!" It was nice being able to take Kim flying, btw. Maybe someday soon I'll get the chance to go flying with her in the Birddog. :yes:

The worst part of the weather was a wind shear between short final and touchdown - where some reported airspeed losses of 30kts (Spike, comment?).

I had about a 20 KT wind shear on take-off the first time. After that, I always climbed with a higher airspeed for a cushion and came in with more speed, altitude and power in case it happened on short final. I knew I could always slip it if I was too high, or go-around if need be. I always landed still having to taxi awhile. That last landing with Robert was a real fight, even right over the runway as I was trying to level out...it was a LOT of work.

When departing for home, I decided it was safer for me to take off on 24. It was yet another fight to keep control in the swirling winds and turbulence. Tom kept talking to me on the radio about changing frequencies, but I couldn't let go of the stick or the throttle after climbing out of the valley to change frequencies. There wasn't a problem with clearing terrain, but it sure was rough air!

Our system of comm in the pattern and over the lake really helped with spacing as did having folks on the ground pointing out pattern arrivals as we departed.
It was impressive how everyone kept track of each other and how cooperative we all were. The advisories from the ground helped sooooo much.

Departures I think the folks that shuttled bags and people to kbpk were very happy with their decision as it greatly enhanced their climb out of the valley.
We all had a lot less worries when that happened. Every time an airplane would take off for home we would watch the departure with :fcross: that it would be a safe and uneventful departure.

I don't recall ever experiencing such winds and erratic turbulence at Gaston's before. And it wasn't just one day of it.

I regret not being able to give more aerobatic rides, but, both days when the clouds lifted high enough to do aerobatics I either couldn't get above them with a good enough view of the ground, or it was just too danged rough. I really prefer not to do aerobatics in turbulence.
 
One thing that Jesse taught me was to cheat to the right half of the runway a little bit when rolling for departure. If you stay just a little right of centerline on your takeoff roll, it drastically decreases the amount of bumps you encounter (allowing you to accelerate much more quickly). Many of the times that I saw somebody take to the air a little bit early they were just left of center and hit one of the bumps that tend to launch you into the air before you're ready.
I should have done that. The Citabria hit the take-off bumps every danged time. None of my take-offs or landings were pretty last weekend. At least they were all safe. :)
 
I did 17 landings at Gastons over the weekend and never once encountered any sort of 'wind-shear'. I flew the approach at my normal approach power with full flaps and paid no attention to the indicated airspeed. I did not add any additional speed.

The ride into the valley was rough. So I did that as early as I could which meant that I had a shallow approach to final which kept me out of all that turbulent air. This is why it seemed like I came out of nowhere on final.

I've generally found that if there are enough gusts to justify adding airspeed the airspeed indicator will be so wild you won't even be able to do it. Just be ready with the power and if the weight on the controls starts to tell you something is wrong pour on the coals and push the yoke forward. Works fine on the light stuff I fly--probably not as well on the real big stuff.
 
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It was rough, but I encountered what I would call "wind shear" on landing only once- but it was significant.

I did observe wind shear on departure on the occasion Dave referenced above. It was interesting.
 
It was rough, but I encountered what I would call "wind shear" on landing only once- but it was significant.

I remember what that Yak looked like after he landed short of the runway last year. I don't remember if winds had anything to do with that one, or just power/energy management or what. I'd rather land a touch long or go around than land too short on that runway.

I did observe wind shear on departure on the occasion Dave referenced above. It was interesting.
Sounds interesting. What was it like?
 
Not sure what thread to put this in but I was quite concerned about toddlers running back and forth across the runway. I would like to see more parental restraint of children. Arriving airplanes make little sound and are not noticed...but sometimes pass through the area at high speed!
 
Not sure what thread to put this in but I was quite concerned about toddlers running back and forth across the runway. I would like to see more parental restraint of children. Arriving airplanes make little sound and are not noticed...but sometimes pass through the area at high speed!

Dave that is always a concern of mine at the FlyBQ. We give out info sheets with printed saftey tips about spinning props and walking on the ramp.
 
For the most part people used 6 for departure with a tailwind, and always 24 for arrivals.

6/24 was the runway direction :hairraise: No wonder it was such a short strip for me :goofy:

In the Baron, my pattern had to be a bit wider, the turn to final put me behind the hill off the end of 24. Had to descend into a little draw, then turn right on final to come in at a normal angle---whooo ha!

Best,

Dave
 
My comment to Kim was "Yeeeeeeee haaaaaaaaw!!! Ride 'em cowgirl!"

Funny, that was my comment to Leslie, too! (Oh, we're talking airplanes here!:redface::goofy:)

I too opted not to take newbies for rides, though I did take Andrea, who had 3 hours of PPL training.
 
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I'd like to see better signage next year <g>

Best,

Dave
 

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Good points, Dave.

As Dr. Bruce reiterated to me, the way to land at Gaston's is between the trees, not over them. This gets you near the runway below most of the rough air in gusty conditions and you set up to land much shorter on the runway doing so. I found the new threshold marker made a great target to reference my aiming point. Also, the runway is quite a bit smoother near the east end than halfway down.

I experienced the "stuck ASI" phenomenom on our departure on Sunday. It seemed to stay right at 90 (kph) an interminable amount of time right before liftoff, but regained normal response on climbout. Very interesting to say the least. Stall speed on the IAR is 110 kph dirty.

I'm in the "follow the river" camp on departure unless aircraft performance allows straight ahead ridge clearance. Straight ahead points you at the pattern at BPK, though, so you have to be aware of where you're headed.

My plane is slightly heavier than most of the singles that came in, but not by much. I think that may have helped me make more consistent landings in the gusty conditions. But the workout I got doing the few rides I did offer certainly exercised my airmanship skills that weekend and I noticed I did a much better job of landing back at the home field as a result. You may have noticed I didn't give many rides this year. Down south during the summer it's usually pretty uncomfortable between 10am and 5pm to do a "pleasure" flight considering the normal temperatures and convective activity. Throw in some increased winds on the ground and it becomes downright unpleasant. The IAR greenhouse effect alone is enough to warrant excluding midday excursions. You don't complain about it, you just work around it. I think conditions at Gaston's really give pilots an opportunity to exercise not only their piloting skills, but their judgement as well. And, to me, that is the core value of the fly-in experience.


Maybe we should charge Jesse with developing a grass runway downwind takeoff performance chart/program for all the attending aircraft. ;)
 
The important thing--if you really do miscalculate-is to use every foot of runway you've got. There is no point in trying to pull the airplane in the air before it is ready to fly. You create a lot of drag and slow your acceleration while wasting valuable runway. There isn't anything off the end of the runway, in fact, it is down hill. I wouldn't be trying to force it into the air until my wheels were on the last few feet.

I never had a takeoff that concerned me. I kept the fuel below the tabs (bought fuel 3 times at Gastons) and limited myself to one passenger or two smaller passengers. I don't pull on the yoke until I know I have enough energy to fly away. Make sure to stay on the right side of the runway and you'll have smoother terrain that won't slow your acceleration as much.

I saw several people get tricked into pulling the airplane into the sky before it was ready which always resulted in shaky wings and a negative vertical speed after a few feet. If you encounter this know that you just wasted several hundred feet of runway. Release pressure on the yoke and you'll decrease the drag. Hopefully you'll decrease the drag and generate enough lift to decrease the negative vertical speed before you hit the runway. Don't fly until the airplane is ready to fly.
 
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The important thing--if you really do miscalculate-is to use every foot of runway you've got. There is no point in trying to pull the airplane in the air before it is ready to fly. You create a lot of drag and slow your acceleration while wasting valuable runway. There isn't anything off the end of the runway, in fact, it is down hill. I wouldn't be trying to force it into the air until my wheels were on the last few feet.

true. forcing it off is never the right thing. however, i can understand the psychological urge to get the thing in the air after a particularly long duration and distance on a takeoff roll. That is a mental battle you have to fight with hot/heavy downwind takeoffs.
 
One of the many things Tom taught me during our time in the air together was to begin rolling without flaps and at Vr, put in the first 10 degrees and pull the yoke simultaneously. Upon leaving Gaston's this procedure worked flawlessly, even with the squirrelly (sp?) winds.

While I can't speak to how well it would work in any other type of a/c, it works great in the Cherokee.
 
That's exactly the technique I used several years ago when a friend of mine asked me to fly his Cherokee 140 out of Gaston's with 3 adults on board after he aborted halfway down the runway. There wasn't any wind, but it was a hot day. Works like a charm.

One of the many things Tom taught me during our time in the air together was to begin rolling without flaps and at Vr, put in the first 10 degrees and pull the yoke simultaneously. Upon leaving Gaston's this procedure worked flawlessly, even with the squirrelly (sp?) winds.

While I can't speak to how well it would work in any other type of a/c, it works great in the Cherokee.
 
It was rough, but I encountered what I would call "wind shear" on landing only once- but it was significant.

I did observe wind shear on departure on the occasion Dave referenced above. It was interesting.
I believe the conditions at Gastons could without a doubt generate significant wind shear. I would like to echo that my above comments weren't doubting that it existed as much as saying I found it existed a lot less at the lower heights.

Believe me--I was flying there all day--and I hit some rough air from the start and discovered it was non-existent if you were lower. The higher you were when you approached the trees the worse it was.
 
I'd like to see better signage next year <g>

Best,

Dave

Saturday morning on your first takeoff, It looked close to the end and the trees and I remember Steve Dill and I in unison saying, "oooohhhh ****". That is when I looked at him and said, "now that is a "true hillbilly grass flogger". :) I know you had room.
 
Those that had longer than desired takeoff runs, just for the data-archives sake, actually how much of the runway was left at liftoff, or how much did you use?

Also, I think I saw ref to departing from 6 along the river and not the typical NE valley? Does that mean under the wires??:hairraise:
I did post an accident report before the flyin about someone who chose that route instead of the valley, the report strongly suggests that is a dangerous direction.

Yes Spike did some spectacular flying in his Bo when we came back from some hood work, nearing the trees his ias went from 100kts and stable to stall horn chirping then back up to 100 in like 2 seconds. Not to mention the unexpected 70 degree wing drop. Sweet save Spike.
 
My most memorable was probably my last one. I struggled into the air well before the trees (but after the planes), but should probably have left it in the ground until it actually WANTED to fly! Once I got past the clearing after the departure end, I never had any doubts. I hugged the bluff along the river, but was climbing, and was well above the powerlines. Glad Leslie went with Felix, though!
 
Yes Spike did some spectacular flying in his Bo when we came back from some hood work, nearing the trees his ias went from 100kts and stable to stall horn chirping then back up to 100 in like 2 seconds. Not to mention the unexpected 70 degree wing drop. Sweet save Spike.

Rick (ahquabi) will attribute to this. He was fairly concerned at the time but mentioned that the landing itself was flawless! Spike is GOOD!
 
He flew in with a friend to Mountain Home. Later in the day when the winds calmed down they brought their rental mooney into Gastons. they left fairly early saturday morning but did join us for saturday supper.
 
He flew in with a friend to Mountain Home. Later in the day when the winds calmed down they brought their rental mooney into Gastons. they left fairly early saturday morning but did join us for saturday supper.
Ahhhh, the mysterious 5th Mooney. Wish I would have had a chance to visit with them.
 
My most memorable was probably my last one. I struggled into the air well before the trees (but after the planes), but should probably have left it in the ground until it actually WANTED to fly! Once I got past the clearing after the departure end, I never had any doubts. I hugged the bluff along the river, but was climbing, and was well above the powerlines. Glad Leslie went with Felix, though!

Grant,

It looked from the other end like you retracted the gear maybe 50 feet in the air, and sank some while it was going up! :hairraise: Isn't the 210 one of the planes where you're supposed to leave it down until you're clear? (Like the Bo)

Dave,

I don't think I ever lifted off with less than 1/3rd of the runway remaining. The two times I had two pax aboard took the longest, but while it was exciting, it wasn't scary. The last takeoff, with the odd gusty quartering tailwind, I was very light (no pax/bags, less than 1/2 fuel) and started all the way over on the road. That turned out to be the easiest takeoff of the weekend.

The option to shuttle pax and bags via other airplanes or ground-pounding is a good one - I hope if the conditions are similar next year, more people take advantage of it. :yes:
 
I always try to maintain some ground speed and make sure to never actually stop on the runway. Coming to a complete stop will take some effort to get moving again and will waste runway. I've played with this in the past at 6Y9 and it is amazing how much faster your lift of will be if you just turn onto the runway with some momentum and speed already built up.
 
Grant,

It looked from the other end like you retracted the gear maybe 50 feet in the air, and sank some while it was going up! :hairraise: Isn't the 210 one of the planes where you're supposed to leave it down until you're clear? (Like the Bo)

The option to shuttle pax and bags via other airplanes or ground-pounding is a good one - I hope if the conditions are similar next year, more people take advantage of it. :yes:
Per the POH,
Landing gear retraction normally is started after reaching the point over the runway where a wheels-down, forced landing on that runway would become impractical. Since the landing gear swings downward approximately two feet as it starts the retraction cycle, damage can result by retracting it before obtaining at least that much ground clearance.
But I know what you're talking about. I had intended to do a runway inspection pass where I cycled the gear so someone could record the process, but we never did.
 
I always try to maintain some ground speed and make sure to never actually stop on the runway. Coming to a complete stop will take some effort to get moving again and will waste runway. I've played with this in the past at 6Y9 and it is amazing how much faster your lift of will be if you just turn onto the runway with some momentum and speed already built up.

Yep. I learned that on my first flight as a pilot to Washington Island (which is also uphill). You see this every time you taxi from a dead stop. You need subtantially more power to get moving than to keep moving.
 
But I know what you're talking about. I had intended to do a runway inspection pass where I cycled the gear so someone could record the process, but we never did.

I have pics of my old club's 210 gear retract cycle coming out of OSH several years ago. I knew they were departing, and I stood at the edge of the runway and used the 'burst' shutter on my camera. I'll try to dig them up and SCAN THEM IN :hairraise::hairraise:

IIRC, the 210 is much like the 177RG (if not identical) in that the wheels actually pivot perpendicular to the direction of travel during retraction. This causes some MAJOR drag in the few seconds that it moves through that section of the retraction process. I got to the point with the 177RG of waiting until I was a couple hundred ft AGL before retracting when loaded, simply because the extra drag made things too interesting that low to the ground. YMMV.
 
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