Garmin GNS-250 XLS v. GNS-300 XLS

TeaSea

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TeaSea
Looking for someone who might have an idea on this. I've an Archer II with a GNC-250 coupled to a normal head. This is a nifty piece of kit, but certified only for VFR. I'm perfectly entitled to use this unit for instrument approaches (DME substitute, SA, etc...) as long as I'm operating under VFR, but cannot use it when under IFR.

I'm thinking of upgrading to a GNS-300 XLS, which has the same footprint as the 250, and I'm told uses the same power coupling, rack, and antenna, so my question for the group is has anyone done this, or seen it done, and is it as simple as purchasing the 300, then having an avionics guy slip it in, test, and sign off on it?

Also, if anyone has any experience with the 300 I'd appreciate your opinions.

This would be my first panel change since owning this A/C.
 
It could be that simple. You would have to end up with an installation which a qualified avionics tech would sign off appropriately.

Some shops won't do that without ensuring that you first bleed an adequate quantity of money; do you have an avionics shop you regularly trade with? That would be my first call.
 
As stated, you need an annunciator panel and some switches. In addition, if you don't have a CDI, you will need to add that. Also, your CDI will have to have a resolver interface. So it is going to require adding wires to your existing installation, an annunciator panel and a CDI with a resolver. It is not just a swap out.
 
The Garmin 150/155/250/300 family is far from my favorite due to its comparatively primative user interface and display, and, for the IFR versions, the someone more complicated means of selecting procedures. However, if you're good with the 250, you should be good with the 300 in that regard.

OTOH, if you find you have a fairly significant cost for the installation of the extra stuff needed for IFR certification of the 300, you might find that it isn't that much more expensive to install a 430 instead, and based on my experience training pilots with both types (155/300 vs 430) for IFR operations, I'm quite sure you'd be way happier with a 430 in the long run -- the only question is how many pesos you have in your peso gun.
 
Thanks for the input!

Yes, I do have a CDI and an annunciator panel, so that's not necessarily an extra investment....and yes, I would definitely be happier with a -430, but I hesitate to make the investment at this point....

It's also not so much the cost of the unit, but the modification required to the short Piper panel, the change in antenna's, and all the other stuff that sort of has me concerned.

I still haven't put it totally out of my mind though.

The shop I have been dealing with is pretty reputable, and I've been recommended to another who I haven't spoken to yet.
 
Does the 300 have to be harnessed to the altitude encoder for IFR cert ?
 
I just looked at the pinout diagrams for the 250XL and the 300XL and they are pin-for-pin compatible. Of course, the 300XL has more functions and therefore requires more pin connections but those pins are labeled "reserved" on the 250 diagram.

Ron and I have disagreed on the perceived value of the 300XL and no, it is not a 430 or 530. I fly with a 300XL and I find it to be very easy to operate. I also have a 430 in another aircraft and if you know your way around a 300, you'll have no trouble with a 430. Visually the 430 offers more but I also fly with a 496 on the panel and that gives me my color map, magenta lines, airport diagrams and much more.

The portable is also a much more cost-effective way to view weather and traffic. Query the number of 430 users that have a portable for those features, versus ones that have weather and traffic on their 430, and you will probably find a 50 to 1 ratio in favor of the portable.

The 300 also has a variety of data inputs and outputs that are compatible with other avionics. I am interfacing with an alt encoder, annunciator, CDI, transponder and autopilot (55X).

In the case where a buyer were considering a new 300XL vs a new 430, I'd recommend the 430. But in your case, with a compatible CDI and annunciator in hand, I'd recommend a used 300XL.
 
Does the 300 have to be harnessed to the altitude encoder for IFR cert ?

Yes, but that can come from grey code or RS232. I bought an SD120 with RS232 and grey code outputs. The grey code goes to the 55X, since that is the only way it gets alt info, and the RS232 heads for the 300XL. If I recall correctly, the 300XL then hands off the alt encoder signal to the transponder via an RS232 output.
 
The portable is also a much more cost-effective way to view weather and traffic. Query the number of 430 users that have a portable for those features, versus ones that have weather and traffic on their 430, and you will probably find a 50 to 1 ratio in favor of the portable.

.

I agree. I have 430W in the panel, but have a 496 with XM weather, much more cost effective way to go.
 
I should mention that I too fly with a portable unit.

I think my deciding factor here for me is the cost of the installation. If the installation costs were minimal, and the key factor is the unit, then I believe I'm leaning towards the -300. Based on what I've been told thus far it looks like my overhead is not that significant.

However, should I still need a lot of modification on the panel, and the costs increase in that regard, then in for a penny, in for a pound, I may as well get the larger more capable unit.

My avionics shop also confirmed that the pin-outs are identical, so I'm just not sure what I'm missing.

jimbtv, since you're flying one of these units, can you give me an idea of what you don't have with a -300 vs. a -430?
 
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jimbtv, since you're flying one of these units, can you give me an idea of what you don't have with a -300 vs. a -430?
You don't have a larger and color display that is way easier to read especially in daylight, a VOR/LOC/ILS receiver, a simulator for training use, readily available computer-based training programs, depiction of published holds and PT's, or simpler, easy-to-learn operation.
 
It all comes down to the installation cost and the legal requirements for all the extraneous blinkers, switchers, hookups and non-converter equipped CDIs, and signoffs.

I personally find panel mount GPS a false economy, certainly for the VFR flavor. The IFR GPS flavor has to be judged by the individual user and how much they're willing and able to plunk down. Yeah for the money-is-no-object crowd the choice is simple, but for the rest of us mortals, it simply does not make any sense to plunk down 10K+ in installed costs for a system that will see occasional hard-IFR use into the mythical airfield one intends to supposedly fly in and out of in IMC that only has a GPS approach, with no suitable alternate fields in a 1000mile radius with a simple VOR approach, to wait out the weather on for 45 measly minutes :rolleyes:

The reality is that for the majority of the peanut gallery that flies in radar controlled environment, who fly single engine pistons whose operators and passengers can't stand much more than the nominal benign IMC in the first place, and with a cursory knowledge of the ATC system, a garmin 1/2/3/4/96 and dual VOR/COMM setup will get you there pretty much the same as the 430w gizmo dude. And I actually prefer the moving display on my 196 versus the 430, go figure. The fact that it's detached from the panel and therefore redundant, and has a cost delta beyond ludicrous when compared to the panel mounts, is just icing on the cake for me.

So in closing I think you should keep the 250XL and use it in combination with the 496. Keep the dozen of thousands for FLYING baby! Now, before the IFR GPS pharisees come and crucify me for stating such blasphemy, consider we use the 496s with WX in the B-52 and it works like a charm, and we're actually actively dodging weather with it at 450+KTAS across the continent, which is a more complicated go/no-go decision than the decision matrix for the median unpressurized altitude GA piston mission profile and the nominal level of actual IMC one would try to fight through on a recreational flight, mind you. Granted, I'm not shooting GPS approaches to an uncontrolled field of 3000 feet length in OVC200 RA+ in the BUFF, my field lengths are 10K and most are surveillance approach capable, but who the hell is anyways !?!?! That is such a statistical outlying and marginal of a percentage of the IFR use for these piston single demographics, it simply does not add up to a cost delta worthwhile the extra flying hours you could burn, versus a portable GPS combo /A or /U setup. Obviously if you're to run with the 300XL and employ it IFR with an illegal setup (such criminals we are....), then the acquisiton cost would be worthwhile. Legal setup though? Nah, just use the VFR GPS and request direct with it every chance you get. Works just as good as filing /G with a terminal GPS. :D Happy flying bud.
 
The reality is that for the majority of the peanut gallery that flies in radar controlled environment, who fly single engine pistons whose operators and passengers can't stand much more than the nominal benign IMC in the first place, and with a cursory knowledge of the ATC system, a garmin 1/2/3/4/96 and dual VOR/COMM setup will get you there pretty much the same as the 430w gizmo dude.
I just don't see how that can be. My IFR GPS's have made the difference in get cleared where I want or making it possible to get into an airport where there's no VOR/LOC-based approach option many times. Without an IFR GPS, you are limited to VOR/LOC-based approaches and flying the airways and such VOR-VOR direct legs as you can get. I've had ATC give me direct-intersection routes to avoid MOA's, weather, and the like many times, and without that GPS, you're reliant on the controller's willingness to vector you around all the way there, which controllers around here are not often willing to do.
 
Hindsight,

I cannot argue your points but /G does have its advantages. ATC is cozying up to /G and I think we can all agree that the system is moving in that direction.

I fly more GPS approaches than VOR/ILS, but with that said, a VOR receiver will usually get you below the deck 10 or 20 miles out. The decommisioning of VOR's should also provide some support for /G.

I'm not just trying to justify my expenditure for /G but I have found it to be quite adventageous. Current databases, coupled routing, pre-loaded approaches, and many other factors continue to reinforce my investment.

If one had to invest in a second radio, be it VHF Nav or GPS, I'd highly recommend the GPS. It just offers more options.
 
With all the blinkenlights, antenna, CDI and the tray already in place, the swap from a 250 to a 300 shouldn't cost more than the price of the used unit and whatever time it takes the avionics guy to do the paperwork and functional testing. So 3k for the unit and $300 for the techs work should get you there (I don't think 250s have much of a core value).
 
Appreciate everyone's response....

I think my short term answer is to take it to the Avionics shop and get some hard numbers either way, then make my decision.

Right now it's off the table again since I backed into my daughter's car yesterday and now have to provision that repair.....

Oh well.......
 
With all the blinkenlights, antenna, CDI and the tray already in place, the swap from a 250 to a 300 shouldn't cost more than the price of the used unit and whatever time it takes the avionics guy to do the paperwork and functional testing. So 3k for the unit and $300 for the techs work should get you there (I don't think 250s have much of a core value).

What are the odds somebody before him went through the troubles of an IFR legal installation just to stop short and put a VFR GPS in it? :rolleyes: The working presumption is that a VFR GPS was favored not for what it can't do (250XL and 300XL are functionally identical, sans the ability to load approaches?¿) but rather for the installation setup savings, which as previously noted, are more than substantial.

I guess getting into an aircraft with an IFR-legal GPS unit that was hastily installed in a "VFR-only" fashion would be the next best thing, as your total cost to make it IFR legal would be the installation cost of the extraneous crap, thence saving the acquisition cost of the GPS unit itself. Either way, neither case seems to be applicable to the OP, which is why I still think his end game would be best served by leaving the 250XL alone and just asking direct with center, and remark 'GPS onboard' on the flight plan. :D


-- break break--

Question for the IFR GPS experts on the forum. Can the 250XL and the 300XL swap datacards? This is to say, will the 250XL take a card (I'm assuming the cards for both units are one in the same?) with an IFR SUA loaded in it? Would there be an advantage in loading an IFR SUA over the VFR database when installed in the 250XL? Just thinking out loud, my only IFR GPS experience is with the KLN units and a couple approaches with the G-430. Also, are LOC-DME now identified as waypoints on all the garmin panel mount databases? (thence allowing the use of GPS in lieu of DME for ILS(LOC)/DME approaches?) Thanks.
 
Also, are LOC-DME now identified as waypoints on all the garmin panel mount databases? (thence allowing the use of GPS in lieu of DME for ILS(LOC)/DME approaches?) Thanks.
You don't have to have the DME antenna as a waypoint in order to fly a LOC/DME approach. All you have to do is be able to determine the distance of the DME fixes from a waypoint in the database, like the FAF or other fix on the approach. Second, at least for the 430/530, LOC/DME approaches are in the database including the necessary fixes as waypoints, obviating the need to have the DME itself in the database. Non-GPS approaches are not, however, in the 155/300 IFR database, so you have to find a fix in the database that is also depicted on the approach so you can determine the distances.
 
What are the odds somebody before him went through the troubles of an IFR legal installation just to stop short and put a VFR GPS in it? :rolleyes:

If I understood him correctly, he has a compliant CDI and annunciator. Those two and the wiring are the big difference between a VFR and IFR installation.

I flew a Cherokee 140 that had a KLN89b with the 'VFR only' placard. It also had the annunciator in the primary view and a King CDI with a nav/gps switch. I had the avionics guy look at it and he told me that all it would take is to replace the encoder and harness it to the 89b and his magic pen to make it IFR legal. So yes, those 'hastily installed' VFR only gps are out there.
 
With all the blinkenlights, antenna, CDI and the tray already in place, the swap from a 250 to a 300 shouldn't cost more than the price of the used unit and whatever time it takes the avionics guy to do the paperwork and functional testing. So 3k for the unit and $300 for the techs work should get you there (I don't think 250s have much of a core value).

Details matter. I would not be surprised if an estimate to update a 250XL to a 300XL was 10 hours of labor or more. Depending on the shop rate, this could be between $750 and $1000.

Although it is pin compatible, the 250XL has pins that are "reserved" that are used for an IFR installation. The panel has to come apart, the connectors on the back have to be removed, wires have to be added to the GPS, the CDI, the annunciator- switch panel, and possibly the encoder. The system has to be tested and paperwork has to be done. For an IFR installation, an AFMS needs to be approved by the local FSDO as the one that is available from Garmin is generic and needs to be modified by the installer. Note that the GNS430W comes with a FAA approved AFMS and an STC with an AML and doesn't need local approval.

Without knowing the specific model of the annunciator and the CDI, I would be reluctant to predict that they would be compatible with an IFR installation.
 
Hmmmm....

I cannot speak to the reason why the previous owner did not put the IFR rig in, as the cost differential between the two units is insignificant compared to the cost of upgrading the panel, the antenna and the other incidentals (CDI and the Annunciator). All I can say is that I know he was not an IFR rated pilot.

When I purchased the aircraft I had to update the annual to include the IFR certification, although that was fairly simple (I purchased during the annual). I would not criticize him too much though, since he took great pains with the aircraft and put in numerous other improvements which I have enjoyed.

My specific concern is the distance measuring capability. Confession time....I've never flown a GPS approach, so I've nothing to compare in terms of experience. NDB, VOR, ILS, DME, no problem, but not having a GPS which allows it, I've just not concerned myself with GPS approaches.

I have confirmed that these units both use the same datacard, which uses the same USB device for updating....not so much of a concern.
 
Details matter. I would not be surprised if an estimate to update a 250XL to a 300XL was 10 hours of labor or more. Depending on the shop rate, this could be between $750 and $1000.

Although it is pin compatible, the 250XL has pins that are "reserved" that are used for an IFR installation. The panel has to come apart, the connectors on the back have to be removed, wires have to be added to the GPS, the CDI, the annunciator- switch panel, and possibly the encoder. The system has to be tested and paperwork has to be done. For an IFR installation, an AFMS needs to be approved by the local FSDO as the one that is available from Garmin is generic and needs to be modified by the installer. Note that the GNS430W comes with a FAA approved AFMS and an STC with an AML and doesn't need local approval.

Without knowing the specific model of the annunciator and the CDI, I would be reluctant to predict that they would be compatible with an IFR installation.

These are good points, and obviously I'm asking for an opinion...I would never ask for anyone's word on this. Clearly I'm going to have to haul it in to get a more realistic assessment.
 
These are good points, and obviously I'm asking for an opinion...I would never ask for anyone's word on this. Clearly I'm going to have to haul it in to get a more realistic assessment.

You are going about it the right way. The reason for my post was that others were advising that it was a slam dunk and should not cost much more than the price of the unit. Having operated an avionics shop in my past, I wanted to make sure you had realistic expectations.
 
I am going to glom on here not to steal the thread, but to get some sage advice. I just gave up my plane with a 430W and GTX330. I will miss them...the plane I am buying has a Garmin 400 slaved to an indicator / two King 155's, for nav-comms one with a glideslope one without the glideslope, a separate DME, and an ADF with its indicator. The instruments all checked out and are working properly. I guess the previous owner did not want to go with the 430 and pull one of the 155's out. I am going to finish up my IR in this plane, and am looking for confirmation that this set up is enough right now to get me through that and keep me going IFR for a while. I just do not have the $$$ to invest in the 430W..but I will really miss the traffic capability of the previous setup. What about a remote mounted GPS with traffic and WX? Thanks all!
 
I just gave up my plane with a 430W and GTX330. I will miss them...the plane I am buying has a Garmin 400 slaved to an indicator / two King 155's, for nav-comms one with a glideslope one without the glideslope, a separate DME, and an ADF with its indicator. The instruments all checked out and are working properly. I guess the previous owner did not want to go with the 430 and pull one of the 155's out. I am going to finish up my IR in this plane, and am looking for confirmation that this set up is enough right now to get me through that and keep me going IFR for a while.
More than enough for that as long as you don't mind not being able to fly LPV approaches, and even then, you can get a WAAS upgrade for the 400 (at a price). Personally, I'd dump the DME and ADF as your Garmin 400 can provide all the utility those would provide other than flying an approach with a DME arc for the final segment (like this one: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1005/05222VDTZ15.PDF) and get the weight back in useful load, but that's just a convenience issue.

I just do not have the $$$ to invest in the 430W..but I will really miss the traffic capability of the previous setup. What about a remote mounted GPS with traffic and WX?
Not sure what sort of traffic options exist for it, but I've got a Garmin 510 just for weather and backup, and after six months with it, I'm very happy with that choice. Its portability has paid of handsomely, like yesterday in my buddy's Luscombe coming back from dropping my plane at the shop for annual -- watching the weather and determining that we really did need to stop at Ridgely for fuel on the way home.
 
Personally, I'd dump the DME and ADF as your Garmin 400 can provide all the utility those would provide other than flying an approach with a DME arc for the final segment (like this one: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1005/05222VDTZ15.PDF)

Ron,

Interesting approach, I assume you need a DME for the final approach segment to be legal. Have you flown this approach with a 430W, is it even in the approach database, and if so does it provide an advisory glidepath? Of course you will be monitoring your DME on the final approach.
 
Interesting approach, I assume you need a DME for the final approach segment to be legal.
That's correct, according to the Flight Procedures Standards Branch (AFS-410).

Have you flown this approach with a 430W,
No, and it wouldn't be legal under IFR, either, since I don't have a DME.

is it even in the approach database,
Dunno -- have to check after my plane comes out of annual next week.

and if so does it provide an advisory glidepath?
It shouldn't, as it's not an RNAV approach, but again, I'll have to check next week.

Of course you will be monitoring your DME on the final approach.
As stated above, since my DME went out when the 530 went in, that's not an option for me in my plane.

BTW, someone showed me a second approach somewhere with a DME arc final segment, so it appears the MTN one isn't unique, but I forgot where the other one was. In any event, I do enjoy having folks fly this one in the sim when doing IFR training with someone with a DME in their plane.
 
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