GA, is it dying a slow death?

Chip Sylverne said:
The last, or should I say only, boom in GA manufacturing came in the late 60's early 70's when returning GI's could learn to fly on the GI Bill's dime. There have been a couple of half-hearted industry attempts at GA revitalization, but they've all been advertising and promotional efforts to no result.
Make it cheap to learn to fly, they will come. So will demand for aircraft. Otherwise we'll continue to limp along.
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Bingo

Perhaps GA is contracting to a more sustainable level after artificial expansion due to Government subsidy?
 
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Money. It's the root of all evil. Liability. Ties into insurance. Insurance is a racket. Always has been. Plane, car, home, doesn't matter. And they have a good excuse. People are sue-happy. Money! Money! How much money can I sue the bas****s for? What's the first thing that happens in an airline crash. SUE! SUE! SUE!...the sue-vultures are circling before the last of the passengers are out of the plane. It all gets passed down to us who have to have insurance. I'm not saying that lawsuits are all bogus, I'm saying our society has allowed ourselves to go sue crazy over anything we want, frivolous or valid. I think if our gubmint would tighten up on this thing and curtail all the sue-frenzies, costs would drop considerably.

<depositing my 2c>

:frown2:
 
Agree, and we seem to be especially litigious when it comes to aircraft, I suppose because of their visibility.
 
From my perspective I don't think GA is dying. I remember 15-20 years ago people were forecasting the death of GA because all the airplanes out there were old, or at least old designs. Then Cirrus came along with their new product. Now we have all kinds of new designs, not that all of them will succeed but it seems that people are trying. I'm amazed when I look at all the new and different airplanes and LSAs not to mention all the advanced avionics that are available to GA pilots now. GA and other industries are down right now but that is because of the general state of the economy. That too will pass, eventually.
 
Everskyward said:
From my perspective I don't think GA is dying. I remember 15-20 years ago people were forecasting the death of GA because all the airplanes out there were old, or at least old designs. Then Cirrus came along with their new product. Now we have all kinds of new designs, not that all of them will succeed but it seems that people are trying. I'm amazed when I look at all the new and different airplanes and LSAs not to mention all the advanced avionics that are available to GA pilots now. GA and other industries are down right now but that is because of the general state of the economy. That too will pass, eventually.
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There is certainly innovation... but is the innovation driving expansion, or is it merely churn due to shift from old to new?

There is an upside to move-up, of course -- the guy that buys the Cirrus sells his Cherokee, making a more affordable aircraft available, thus increasing supply (thus holding down price).

But without data to show new entries, it appears that the innovative equipment and airplanes are being supported by a small, relatively static population.

The LSA was supposed to open up GA, but it appears to have backfired, putting demand pressure on what were formerly "entry-level" airplanes -- Cubs and Champs and the like. The only guys I know flying LSAs in 3 airports I prowl are those who lost medicals and used to fly bigger, more expensive airplanes.

Of course that is a small, poor sampling, but I don't see much other data...:dunno:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
One part you guys are missing about new aircraft production cost is the Product Liability Insurance each manufacture pays. It's staggering, but thanks to the United States and runaway lawsuits it's only increasing.
Click to expand...

And the regulatory requirements. It took almost 2 years for Commander to get authority to sell parts for their airplanes - parts that were manufactured by outside companies.
 
Interesting question...

As someone who lives (and tries to fly) in the Middle East, let me give you my own personal perspective.

1. Flying is expensive, but flying in Europe and in Israel is, without a doubt, much more expensive !
An antiquated c-172 can be rented for around $ 260.00/h (wet)...

2. Flying has become more restricted and more regulated - especially since the hysteria caused by the 9/11 attacks.
But flyers in America still enjoy a considerable degree of freedom.
Just for the sake of comparison, there is no such thing as VFR flying in Israel and you must file a flight plan for every flight.
All flying is performed along predefined corridors with specific bearings and altitude.

3. America is a huge (and beautiful) country. The choice of destinations for the adventurous GA pilot are almost endless.
In Israel, there's only a dozen airfields we can fly to...some of them are located in places that do not offer ANY interesting activities.
For example... a while ago, I flew to Eyn Yahav, a small airstrip in the Arava desert. After landing, there was no FBO to go to, nobody to talk to, no restaurant...we had to walk for 2 miles under a scorching sun in order to get some overpriced refreshments before flying back home.
We concluded that this flight was a useless trip from one ****hole to another...

4. Getting a license in America seems difficult ?
Try getting one in Israel. The average cost for a PPL is around $ 20,000.00 (!!!!) - and sometime even more !
There are no less than SEVEN written exams (passing score on some of them must be above 90%).

As you see, everything is relative...we can only dream to fly under the conditions you are used to and take for granted.

P.S. I am contemplating the possibility of doing all my flying in America and I am trying to convince some flying buddies to come along...:yes:
 
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GA is dying because it is cost-prohibitive to most folks, especially in this economy. I am on my second extended non-flying period, currently at 8 months and growing. I am a CFI and can't get work as a CFI nor can I afford to fly even privately with the current non-flying job that I have now.

David
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Interesting question...

As someone who lives (and tries to fly) in the Middle East, let me give you my own personal perspective.

1. Flying is expensive, but flying in Europe and in Israel is, without a doubt, much more expensive !
An antiquated c-172 can be rented for around $ 260.00/h (wet)...

2. Flying has become more restricted and more regulated - especially since the hysteria caused by the 9/11 attacks.
But flyers in America still enjoy a considerable degree of freedom.
Just for the sake of comparison, there is no such thing as VFR flying in Israel and you must file a flight plan for every flight.
All flying is performed along predefined corridors with specific bearings and altitude.

3. America is a huge (and beautiful) country. The choice of destinations for the adventurous GA pilot are almost endless.
In Israel, there's only a dozen airfields we can fly to...some of them are located in places that do not offer ANY interesting activities.
For example... a while ago, I flew to Eyn Yahav, a small airstrip in the Arava desert. After landing, there was no FBO to go to, nobody to talk to, no restaurant...we had to walk for 2 miles under a scorching sun in order to get some overpriced refreshments before flying back home.
We concluded that this flight was a useless trip from one ****hole to another...

4. Getting a license in America seems difficult ?
Try getting one in Israel. The average cost for a PPL is around $ 20,000.00 (!!!!) - and sometime even more !
There are no less than SEVEN written exams (passing score on some of them must be above 90%).

As you see, everything is relative...we can only dream to fly under the conditions you are used to and take for granted.

P.S. I am contemplating the possibility of doing all my flying in America and I am trying to convince some flying buddies to come along...:yes:
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Shalom. We asked if GA was dying in America. We understand that its already dead in other parts of the world.

As an aside, flying should be really, really cheap in Israel. Your country is only about 2 miles across. You should be able to go from one end to the other in about 10 minutes.
 
Someone else here has said this before, GA flying is about what you as a pilot want out of it. We all have different missions and available funds to support our love of flying. I for one have no need to be able to jump in a 4 place XC machine and head 500 nm away for fun. Would it be nice to have that option, well I guess, but that's not me.
Am I going to stop flying because I can't justify owning a certified airplane that cost $500.00 a month just to own it, NO WAY!
If you want to fly, you can find a way to afford it, its just knowing what you are willing to give up to do it.
Fly what you can afford, you can't drink Champagne on a beer drinker's budget, same goes for flying!
 
John Baker said:
I think I posted this on the wrong forum, probably should have been flight following.

What does the FAA charge to certify a new airplane design? Perhaps it's the certification costs of the plane and all thats stuck in or on it that makes things so expensive.

Heck, a new Warrior is a couple hundred thousand, and that's just a four banger trainer. My Warrior is 31 years old with nothing but steam gages and I can barely afford that.

I think aviation is heading in the direction of being for the wealthy only. That is unless government gets it's way and taxes the wealthy into the middle class. Then, I think aviation will be mostly government or government employees that can actually take part. I guess that will get rid of the riff raff that you see around airports now, people much like myself.

John
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As I recall the the certification costs for the first cirrus was on the order of 20 million and that was for a derivative of a already flying kit plane. it's not cheap.
 
Don't have that number, but it's incredibly high. During the tour the guide and I watched a guy building the inner structure of the baggage door on a drop press. It was a very intricate process that required a number of different steps, repositioning the mold and sandbags several times, opening and closing the cage and doing it all partly by feel and partly by dimension. I'd be willing to wager than no two parts are exactly identical. That piece isn't one that readily comes to mind as a major structural part of the airframe, but he worked on it for at least 10 minutes, maybe longer. At an auto plant it would have been done in less than a minute. They are truly built by hand.

Dean said:
How many man hours would you say goes into producing an airplane? Not counting engineering hours, just production.
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wabower said:
Don't have that number, but it's incredibly high. During the tour the guide and I watched a guy building the inner structure of the baggage door on a drop press. It was a very intricate process that required a number of different steps, repositioning the mold and sandbags several times, opening and closing the cage and doing it all partly by feel and partly by dimension. I'd be willing to wager than no two parts are exactly identical. That piece isn't one that readily comes to mind as a major structural part of the airframe, but he worked on it for at least 10 minutes, maybe longer. At an auto plant it would have been done in less than a minute. They are truly built by hand.
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Absolutely true. I know on certain airframes that replacement parts need to be hand-trimmed to fit (unlike a car)... and in some cases the difference is pretty substantial.

Lots and lots of hours.
 
It makes sense that airplanes designed in the 50s and 60s used labor-intensive construction methods as the cost of labor was less in absolute terms then than now.

So...What would be the break-even number for number of aircraft sold to justify high-automation manufacture?
:idea:
 
steingar said:
Shalom. We asked if GA was dying in America. We understand that its already dead in other parts of the world.

As an aside, flying should be really, really cheap in Israel. Your country is only about 2 miles across. You should be able to go from one end to the other in about 10 minutes.
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Hi Steingar


SHOOT !...I didn't know that GA was "already" dead elsewhere...:dunno:

For your information, Israel's narrowest point is 9 miles across ! :D
So it should take less than 6 minutes for a C-172 to cross the country...

A few points to keep in mind:

1. You can fly in circles endlessly...

2. You can fly from the Northern border to the Southern border...in such case you would have to fly 263 miles...(a huge distance by our standards).

3. You can fly to Cyprus or to the Greek Islands - provided you've got enough dough to finance such a trip.
 
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Armageddon Aviator said:
Hi Steingar

I believe the thread's title was "GA, is it dying a slow death?" ...

I didn't know the discussion was limited to GA in America - I also wasn't aware of the fact that GA was "already" dead elsewhere...:dunno:

For your information, Israel's narrowest point is 9 miles across ! :D
So it should take less than 6 minutes to cross for a C-172...

A few points to keep in mind:

1. You can fly in circles endlessly...

2. You can fly from the Northern border to the Southern border...in such case you would have to fly 263 miles...(a huge distance by our standards).

3. You can fly to Cyprus or to the Greek Islands - provided you've got enough dough to finance such a trip.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info that helps put our flying in perspective!

Though I have to ask.. is your logbook filled with "Flew XC, .0225 hours" entries?
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Hi Steingar


SHOOT !...I didn't know that GA was "already" dead elsewhere...:dunno:

For your information, Israel's narrowest point is 9 miles across ! :D
So it should take less than 6 minutes for a C-172 to cross the country...

A few points to keep in mind:

1. You can fly in circles endlessly...

2. You can fly from the Northern border to the Southern border...in such case you would have to fly 263 miles...(a huge distance by our standards).

3. You can fly to Cyprus or to the Greek Islands - provided you've got enough dough to finance such a trip.
Click to expand...

Mah schlomchah,

I was half-joking about Israel being 2 miles wide, although the dimensions of Israel are really small compared to the US. I figured if you wanted to really go cross country you would fly internationally. If we fly in circles here in the US, it is to land repeatedly while remaining in the traffic pattern. Lots of us do that from time to time.

I wasn't joking at all when I said that GA was dead elsewhere, including most of Europe. I figured there wouldn't be that much activity in Eretz Israel due to the small dimensions and troubles with the neighbors. In Europe the gas is outrageous and there are fees for just about everything. I don't think people do touch and goes often because they're charged per landing. As I understand it a sizable number of the aircraft are from the US and many (if not most) of the pilots are trained here. Mind you this is all second hand information, I have not flown GA outside the US.

We live in fear of that here in the US things will become similar. We've seen more and more regulation regarding airspace and where you can and can't go. Successive administrations have tried to implement user fees similar to what they have in Europe. I've read that we loose an airport every two weeks.

Add to all this the aging pilot population, and we see a grim picture. However, I have no doubt that it looks really good from over there. But remember, loose the US and you loose the US GA aircraft manufacturing. That could truly have worldwide repercussions, and make things that much worse where you are.

Damn, its late over there. Don't you dudes ever sleep?
 
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YES!

Let me discuss briefly why I think it is... It is not the money per se - though the current depression is not helping, GA was dieing well before that...

The first part is the strangling regulations, especially since 9/11, and the threat of being thrown in prison for merely crossing some invisible line in the sky... The second part is the barrier to entry... The third part is hostility by the mass media...

Go to the marina or the launch ramp on the weekend and see the families blasting off in $30K to $300K boats... The payments on those boats would buy a lot of flying, so it is not the money that is the only criteria... The point is that they can jump in the boat and go for the day or the weekend... They are not going to be arrested for crossing some invisible line... Dad did not have to spend a year and a half and $10,000 to get the license to operate the boat before the first trip and spend more money on recurrent training... Some reporter is not going to stick a camera in their face and intone gravely, "And now we will talk to some of those rich people who boat."

The only thing worse in the eyes of the media than being a pilot is being a physician...

So, that constant drum beat of pilots being nutcases who threaten everyone's life is a major factor in the demise of GA - society frowns on GA...
The regulations are so dense, arcane, and unreadable that it is simply not possible to start the engine without breaking them...
Leaving the ground is a gamble that you won't come to the attention of the Homeland Security folks...
The airplane costs a bloody fortune for every hour you fly it...
ANd the local TV station is praying you will crash so they can intone on the 11 Oclock news, And he didn't file a flight plan."

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
ANd the local TV station is praying you will crash so they can intone on the 11 Oclock news, And he didn't file a flight plan."

denny-o
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We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
Comes on at five
She can tell you bout the plane crash with a gleam
In her eye
Its interesting when people die-
Give us dirty laundry

--"Dirty Laundry", Don Henley
 
Dr. O said:
YES!

Let me discuss briefly why I think it is... It is not the money per se - though the current depression is not helping, GA was dieing well before that...

The first part is the strangling regulations, especially since 9/11, and the threat of being thrown in prison for merely crossing some invisible line in the sky... The second part is the barrier to entry... The third part is hostility by the mass media...

Go to the marina or the launch ramp on the weekend and see the families blasting off in $30K to $300K boats... The payments on those boats would buy a lot of flying, so it is not the money that is the only criteria... The point is that they can jump in the boat and go for the day or the weekend... They are not going to be arrested for crossing some invisible line... Dad did not have to spend a year and a half and $10,000 to get the license to operate the boat before the first trip and spend more money on recurrent training... Some reporter is not going to stick a camera in their face and intone gravely, "And now we will talk to some of those rich people who boat."

The only thing worse in the eyes of the media than being a pilot is being a physician...

So, that constant drum beat of pilots being nutcases who threaten everyone's life is a major factor in the demise of GA - society frowns on GA...
The regulations are so dense, arcane, and unreadable that it is simply not possible to start the engine without breaking them...
Leaving the ground is a gamble that you won't come to the attention of the Homeland Security folks...
The airplane costs a bloody fortune for every hour you fly it...
ANd the local TV station is praying you will crash so they can intone on the 11 Oclock news, And he didn't file a flight plan."

denny-o
Click to expand...

Or someone like Julie Banderas, FOX News on Sunday, yammering about how all of us are rich and can certainly afford to have TCAS installed and every other frickin thing that the voice in her earpiece was telling her.
 
Dr. O said:
Go to the marina or the launch ramp on the weekend and see the families blasting off in $30K to $300K boats... The payments on those boats would buy a lot of flying, so it is not the money that is the only criteria... The point is that they can jump in the boat and go for the day or the weekend...
Click to expand...
The other point is that boating is something that can be enjoyed by the whole family in a way that flying usually can't. Sure it's enjoyable for the pilot, but maybe less interesting for the spouse and kids.

Dr. O said:
Dad did not have to spend a year and a half and $10,000 to get the license to operate the boat before the first trip and spend more money on recurrent training...
Click to expand...
That's a valid point, although it could be "mom". ;)

Dr. O said:
Some reporter is not going to stick a camera in their face and intone gravely, "And now we will talk to some of those rich people who boat."

The only thing worse in the eyes of the media than being a pilot is being a physician...
Click to expand...
I don't believe that at all about the way the public views pilots or physicians. Politicians, lawyers, used car salesmen, yes. You could probably add investment bankers to that list these days too. I rarely have gotten a bad reaction when I have told people that I am a pilot. In fact right off hand I can't think of any.
 
Most parts don't come pre-drilled because they know they wouldn't fit anyway. Replacing the nose-gear doors on a Cessna retrac is a long-term project, as are leading edge inboard skins on King Airs. Trying to install a new cabin door is nigh-on impossible.
wsuffa said:
Absolutely true. I know on certain airframes that replacement parts need to be hand-trimmed to fit (unlike a car)... and in some cases the difference is pretty substantial.

Lots and lots of hours.
Click to expand...
 
  • The boat dock is always the same distance from the house
  • The boat can be used if it's a bit windy, a bit cloudy, or a bit stormy
  • The boat's weight limit is somewhat flexible, as is the number of pax.
  • The boat doesn't have to be reserved, it's always there.
  • A higher percentage of wives will ride in boats.
  • Many boats can be stored at home.
  • No medical is required for 4-place boats.
  • Boat accidents don't make front page news.
  • Boats don't require checkouts or operating reviews every two years.
  • Boats don't require annual inspections, have AD's and service bulletins.
  • On most days you go boating, you can get back home without the risk of having to leave the boat at some marina three hours from home and finding an alternate ride back.
  • Boat insurance is affordable, and the owner can immediately drive a bigger boat if he decides to buy one.
  • Boat gas is about the same price as car gas.
  • Boat captains can have a drink or two and still drive the boat.
Dr. O said:
YES!

Let me discuss briefly why I think it is... It is not the money per se - though the current depression is not helping, GA was dieing well before that...

The first part is the strangling regulations, especially since 9/11, and the threat of being thrown in prison for merely crossing some invisible line in the sky... The second part is the barrier to entry... The third part is hostility by the mass media...

Go to the marina or the launch ramp on the weekend and see the families blasting off in $30K to $300K boats... The payments on those boats would buy a lot of flying, so it is not the money that is the only criteria... The point is that they can jump in the boat and go for the day or the weekend... They are not going to be arrested for crossing some invisible line... Dad did not have to spend a year and a half and $10,000 to get the license to operate the boat before the first trip and spend more money on recurrent training... Some reporter is not going to stick a camera in their face and intone gravely, "And now we will talk to some of those rich people who boat."

The only thing worse in the eyes of the media than being a pilot is being a physician...

So, that constant drum beat of pilots being nutcases who threaten everyone's life is a major factor in the demise of GA - society frowns on GA...
The regulations are so dense, arcane, and unreadable that it is simply not possible to start the engine without breaking them...
Leaving the ground is a gamble that you won't come to the attention of the Homeland Security folks...
The airplane costs a bloody fortune for every hour you fly it...
ANd the local TV station is praying you will crash so they can intone on the 11 Oclock news, And he didn't file a flight plan."

denny-o
Click to expand...
 
Dean said:
How many man hours would you say goes into producing an airplane? Not counting engineering hours, just production.
Click to expand...

Cirrus claimed, a few years ago, to have gotten production time down to 2,000 hours for an SR-22. This is down from the original 6,000 hours for the same aircraft. My bet is that Piper and Cessna are floating in the 2,000-3,000 hour range. How much per hour are companies spending on labor (including, wages, pension, unemployment tax, SS tax, etc)? I estimated $40-$50 per hour and imediately someone said that I was WAY too low.

Conversely in back in 1979, the Japanese auto manufacturers were able to build a car in 79 man hours. This is part of the reason why a Toyata Camary costs $20K, but a Cessna Skycatcher costs $120K.

Check out youtube for aircraft manufacturing videos. There are videos for Cirrus, Cessna (skycatcher), and Diamond. Looking at them, other than jigs to hold parts, they had about the same technological advances as the homebuilder building an RV or lancair in his garage. There were no robots, like they have when building cars. It is just a lot of labor doing the same things homebuilders do, composite layups, riveting, sanding, etc.
 
wabower said:
  • The boat dock is always the same distance from the house
  • The boat can be used if it's a bit windy, a bit cloudy, or a bit stormy
  • The boat's weight limit is somewhat flexible, as is the number of pax.
  • The boat doesn't have to be reserved, it's always there.
  • A higher percentage of wives will ride in boats.
  • Many boats can be stored at home.
  • No medical is required for 4-place boats.
  • Boat accidents don't make front page news.
  • Boats don't require checkouts or operating reviews every two years.
  • Boats don't require annual inspections, have AD's and service bulletins.
  • On most days you go boating, you can get back home without the risk of having to leave the boat at some marina three hours from home and finding an alternate ride back.
  • Boat insurance is affordable, and the owner can immediately drive a bigger boat if he decides to buy one.

  • Boat gas is about the same price as car gas.
  • Boat captains can have a drink or two and still drive the boat.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you've written except the insurance part. My boat insurance is much higher than my airplane. ( I live and dock my boat in Florida)
 
I was remembering my last fresh-water boat here, premiums were almost nothing for comparable hull cost.
Rotor&Wing said:
I agree with what you've written except the insurance part. My boat insurance is much higher than my airplane. ( I live and dock my boat in Florida)
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I just had a chat with our cleaning woman at the lab about the Hudson river tragedy. She was unaware that there were hundreds of aircraft in that space that day. She was unaware that there hadn't been such a collision in that space in decades. She was flabbergasted when I told her the level of traffic I saw at Oshkosh. And she has no clue that the two most recent airline tragedies in the US were due to rank incompetence.

With the level of misinformation out there it's a wonder we're still around.
 
steingar said:
I just had a chat with our cleaning woman at the lab about the Hudson river tragedy. She was unaware that there were hundreds of aircraft in that space that day. She was unaware that there hadn't been such a collision in that space in decades. She was flabbergasted when I told her the level of traffic I saw at Oshkosh. And she has no clue that the two most recent airline tragedies in the US were due to rank incompetence.

With the level of misinformation out there it's a wonder we're still around.
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I'm sure that I don't know much about other people's hobbies such as scuba diving or skeet shooting so I wouldn't expect someone who is not interested in aviation to know much about the Hudson River corridor or Oshkosh. I also couldn't tell you what caused the last two train accidents although it seems like texting was involved. But that could be misinformation on my part too. I should also add that I don't know what caused the last two airline accidents, or even which ones you are referring to.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
I agree with what you've written except the insurance part. My boat insurance is much higher than my airplane. ( I live and dock my boat in Florida)
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  • Airplanes usually can't disappear when standing still.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm sure that I don't know much about other people's hobbies such as scuba diving or skeet shooting so I wouldn't expect someone who is not interested in aviation to know much about the Hudson River corridor or Oshkosh. I also couldn't tell you what caused the last two train accidents although it seems like texting was involved. But that could be misinformation on my part too. I should also add that I don't know what caused the last two airline accidents, or even which ones you are referring to.
Click to expand...

Understood. I don't know anything about train safety, skeet shooting, or stamp collecting. I also have no opinion whatsoever about their safety or level of fun.

This person thought aircraft like ours were inherently dangerous, and used the Hudson river tragedy as proof. Most people with whom I have discussed the topic thought GA was extraordinarily dangerous. Their main source of information was obviously the media, which shows naught but airplane crashes. Again, if that is the level and context of information available to the public, it is amazing that there are any pilots at all.
 
I sometimes find myself asking the same questions about acro and sky-diving.
steingar said:
Understood. I don't know anything about train safety, skeet shooting, or stamp collecting. I also have no opinion whatsoever about their safety or level of fun.

This person thought aircraft like ours were inherently dangerous, and used the Hudson river tragedy as proof. Most people with whom I have discussed the topic thought GA was extraordinarily dangerous. Their main source of information was obviously the media, which shows naught but airplane crashes. Again, if that is the level and context of information available to the public, it is amazing that there are any pilots at all.
Click to expand...
 
steingar said:
Again, if that is the level and context of information available to the public, it is amazing that there are any pilots at all.
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I don't know why some people worry so much about what other people think of their hobbies. Bungee jumping and recreational skydiving are both seen as risky activities but they still attract participants. Riding a motorcycle is seen by a lot of people as risky but that sure hasn't slowed down sales.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't know why some people worry so much about what other people think of their hobbies. Bungee jumping and recreational skydiving are both seen as risky activities but they still attract participants. Riding a motorcycle is seen by a lot of people as risky but that sure hasn't slowed down sales.
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Because those "other people" actively try to keep us from participating in our hobbies because of what they perceive to be dangers. I'm not aware of anyone attempting to preclude motorcycles from driving on public roads because they're "dangerous."
 
gprellwitz said:
Because those "other people" actively try to keep us from participating in our hobbies because of what they perceive to be dangers. I'm not aware of anyone attempting to preclude motorcycles from driving on public roads because they're "dangerous."
Click to expand...

And who are these "other people"???
 
There are these folks: http://www.stopthenoise.org/
Apparently their poop doesn't stink. Society as a whole has a problem when you can be charged with careless and reckless for putting yourself(and no one else) in danger.
 
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