GA guys: Could you land an Airliner?

Henning said:
As for navigation, as soon as I go off the programmed AP, I'm pretty much committed to hand flying unless there is an obvious or at least easy to find a simple 'heading' mode switch for the A/P, that's fine by me.
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So how are you going to land it? How are you going to program the FMS for the landing runway? How are you going to sequence the approach phase in the FMS? Unless you deselect the autopilot as well as the autothrust the airplane won't land. Also, without proper sequencing of the FMS where are your landing speeds as well as green dot, "S" and "F" speed and Vapp gonna come from?



Henning said:
I'm also going to need ground ref or vector nav, I wouldn't waste a whole lot of time and effort studying the FMS section of the manual, but if I had a long leg on A/P I may give setting up on it a try.
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Everything goes through the MCDU. Turn everything off including autothrust and you will have your hands very full.
 
RotorAndWing said:
So how are you going to land it? How are you going to program the FMS for the landing runway? How are you going to sequence the approach phase in the FMS? Unless you deselect the autopilot as well as the autothrust the airplane won't land. Also, without proper sequencing of the FMS where are your landing speeds as well as green dot, "S" and "F" speed and Vapp gonna come from?





Everything goes through the MCDU. Turn everything off including autothrust and you will have your hands very full.
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I'm not, I'm counting on the thing being programmed to get me on final or to a circle to land. As far as switchology for landing, that is exactly where I would be spending my time reading rather than learning to reprogram the FMS. I will find a way to get throttle throttle function, the book is not that complex.
 
Henning said:
I'm not, I'm counting on the thing being programmed to get me on final or to a circle to land. As far as switchology for landing, that is exactly where I would be spending my time reading rather than learning to reprogram the FMS. I will find a way to get throttle throttle function, the book is not that complex.
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The MCDU has to have the landing runway in the program, otherwise it will not sequence to the landing phase, hence no speeds or autothrust.

If you are "counting on the thing being programmed to get me on final" what if another runway is in use? Or better yet, how about in my previous example you are having to divert to a different field?

How would you go from managed flight to selected flight?
 
RotorAndWing said:
The MCDU has to have the landing runway in the program, otherwise it will not sequence to the landing phase, hence no speeds or autothrust.

If you are "counting on the thing being programmed to get me on final" what if another runway is in use? Or better yet, how about in my previous example you are having to divert to a different field?

How would you go from managed flight to selected flight?
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The other runway scenario I suspect I could get around allowing the plane to sequence itself down to a circle to land altitude, it should have a simple push button function to take it over by then.

Diverting, especially a major divert yeah, that would be the real bastard of a scenario. At that point, probably it would require me finding a cheat sheet in one of the guys' flight cases, or hopefully they have someone rated on the radio by then to talk me through it.
 
Henning said:
The other runway scenario I suspect I could get around allowing the plane to sequence itself down to a circle to land altitude,
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OK, so you are down to a circle to land attitude (btw, where did you enter that altitude at?) Now, on what page do you sequence the landing runway so you will have autothrust and approach speeds?

Henning said:
it should have a simple push button function to take it over by then.
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Really? Go look at an Airbus 320 or 330 cockpit picture and get back to us where that "simple push button function" is located.


Henning said:
Diverting, especially a major divert yeah, that would be the real bastard of a scenario. At that point, probably it would require me finding a cheat sheet in one of the guys' flight cases,
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LOL, ya think? :rofl: Good luck on that!


Henning said:
or hopefully they have someone rated on the radio by then to talk me through it.
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Better have someone with a lot of time and patience.

Bottom line, it's not as easy as you're attempting to make it appear, not even for you. :no:
 
RotorAndWing said:
OK, so you are down to a circle to land attitude (btw, where did you enter that altitude at?) Now, on what page do you sequence the landing runway so you will have autothrust and approach speeds?



Really? Go look at an Airbus 320 or 330 cockpit picture and get back to us where that "simple push button function" is located.




LOL, ya think? :rofl: Good luck on that!




Better have someone with a lot of time and patience.

Bottom line, it's not as easy as you're attempting to make it appear, not even for you. :no:
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Never said it would be easy, but I would find a way to do it even if I had to start pulling some breakers to get the plane into its basic law level so I can hand fly it in the same law the 447 guys had going in. They had full manual control just by the autopilot that was online going offline. Thing is, you can't quit trying.

BTW, I would think a rated and current pilot could talk me through the button pushing in 300% of the time it would take him to do it. He tells me which buttons to push and I push them, not that freaking complex, not like I need to learn a programming language.
 
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Henning said:
Never said it would be easy, but I would find a way to do it even if I had to start pulling some breakers to get the plane into its basic law level so I can hand fly it in the same law the 447 guys had going in.
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Why? :dunno:


Henning said:
They had full manual control just by the autopilot that was online going offline. Thing is, you can't quit trying.
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Really? Full manual control?

We're talking about landing a functional airplane, so please stay on topic. AF447 is an entirely different scenario.


Henning said:
BTW, I would think a rated and current pilot could talk me through the button pushing in 300% of the time it would take him to do it. He tells me which buttons to push and I push them, not that freaking complex, not like I need to learn a programming language.
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For someone who's never operated a MCDU you are awful confident. :rolleyes2:

Given a LOT of time and patience perhaps someone could talk you through it. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, I'm sure I could if the conditions weren't overly difficult, weather-wise. The plane might get banged up a little though.

EDIT: I am assuming an experienced pilot in type on the radio!
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Why? :dunno:




Really? Full manual control?

We're talking about landing a functional airplane, so please stay on topic. AF447 is an entirely different scenario.




For someone who's never operated a MCDU you are awful confident. :rolleyes2:

Given a LOT of time and patience perhaps someone could talk you through it. :rolleyes:
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Well, if I can't get to where I need to be, I'm not landing a fully functional aircraft, same as if I get it somewhere and can't reduce power. Full manual control will allow me either. Not an optimum choice, but if no other was available, I'd try it over a certain augering in.
 
Henning said:
Well, if I can't get to where I need to be, I'm not landing a fully functional aircraft, same as if I get it somewhere and can't reduce power. Full manual control will allow me either. Not an optimum choice, but if no other was available, I'd try it over a certain augering in.
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So how would you achieve full manual control? How would you get to that phase and then get it to land?
 
RotorAndWing said:
OK, Johnny Private gets into the cockpit of an Airbus (320 or 330). It's on autopilot and the FMS is loaded with a flight plan to Paris. They are over New York and the weather is typical, several cloud layers to the deck. AP1 (autopilot one) is engaged and the aircraft is in managed mode.

Johnny Private gets out the FCOM (Flight Crew Operating Manual) and decides to get the airplane on the ground at JFK (nice long runway).

The FCOM is over a thousand pages, give or take. Johnny will have to figure out how to "divert the box" (FMS) to JFK, load the necessary approach, which page to enter the landing data as well as a routing for the letdown and arrival. He will also have to figure out how to operate the FCU (flight control unit), which button to push or pull (manage or selected) and the corresponding FMA's (Flight Mode Annunciation) on his PFD (Pilot Flight Display). And along the way he will have to figure out how to operate the RMP (radio management panel).

He'll also have to figure out what the PFD displays are telling him, when and how to configure for landing, how to arm the FCU for the approach, location of the decel point or which page on the FMS to access to activate the approach phase.

And I've only scratched the surface. Johnny is gonna have his hands full for sure. :rolleyes:
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So basically what you are saying is.....as long as it happens in a Boeing we are okay, but if a GA pilot finds himself needing to take control of a Bus and get it on the ground.....he's probably screwed. ;)
 
RotorAndWing said:
OK, so you are down to a circle to land attitude (btw, where did you enter that altitude at?) Now, on what page do you sequence the landing runway so you will have autothrust and approach speeds?



Really? Go look at an Airbus 320 or 330 cockpit picture and get back to us where that "simple push button function" is located.




LOL, ya think? :rofl: Good luck on that!




Better have someone with a lot of time and patience.

Bottom line, it's not as easy as you're attempting to make it appear, not even for you. :no:
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0340994568
 
Badger said:
As I found myself daydreaming in coach last week on the way home from a trip, I wondered 'if something terrible happened to the crew, and they asked if there was a pilot on board, could I actually land this bird?'

I know TV is all hyped up...but..... could it be done? With enough help from an experienced pilot on the radio to establish speeds, etc. maybe I could get it down safe with 20k of runway!

What about you, could you save 250 people?:dunno:
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Hell yea, I could land it. Now.. landing it at an airport ON a runway IN A CONDITION to fly again? well..... :dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why? :dunno:

< snip >

For someone who's never operated a MCDU you are awful confident. :rolleyes2:

Given a LOT of time and patience perhaps someone could talk you through it. :rolleyes:
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I'm pretty confident that either ATC or the company would try their best to find such a person.

Also, bear in mind that the question is whether a non-airline pilot could get the thing on the ground -- once -- without killing everyone on board, not whether he or she can become expert on all that airliner's systems in that time.

I also assume two additional, reasonable conditions:

First, that the aircraft itself is operating happily, which means that there's no hurry to get it on the ground. So the first thing to do is get it / keep it pointed in a safe direction at a safe altitude, and use that time to acquire the bare minimum familiarity needed to perform the singular task of making one landing, at one particular airport, to be selected by people smarter than me, by virtue of its nice, long runway and an easy approach.

That may mean having to learn which way to turn one percent of the knobs or push one percent of the buttons on the flight deck, and zero percent of why to turn or push them. But who cares? The goal is to make one landing, on one runway, at one airport, on one day, without killing anyone. If the airplane can be flown again after that landing, it's gravy.

The second assumption is that this isn't a rapture scenario. There are other people out there who do, in fact, know which way to turn that one percent of the knobs in the cockpit to enable or disable whatever technologies have to be enabled or disabled in order to allow me to land the airplane that one time, on that one runway, at that one airport, on that one day, without killing anyone.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
I'm pretty confident that either ATC or the company would try their best to find such a person.

Also, bear in mind that the question is whether a non-airline pilot could get the thing on the ground -- once -- without killing everyone on board, not whether he or she can become expert on all that airliner's systems in that time.
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It's not a matter of becoming an expert, it's a matter of understanding without knowing the proper sequence or where to enter the information the airplane will not give you the desired results.
 
R & W -

Are we taking over a plane that only 2 people in the world are qualified to fly, and both are dead? I would think with 90 minutes of fuel on board you'd be able to find SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE to talk you through it. Screw the FMS, screw the autowhatzits, just give me someone on the radio who will tell me where the trim control is, how to disengage the autopilot, what the Vnumbers are, etc...

If it's programmed to fly to wherever, they can talk me through everything that needs to be done before we get to that point. Turn off all the automated crap 200 miles from destination so I can get a feel for the plane while descending, and vector me for a 50 mile final. They do still have the basic 6 pack available even if in glass screen form somewhere don't they? I still push the stick to make the ground get closer, and pull to make the ground go further away? And throttles are still forward for more fuel, and back for less, right?

In an emergency - I think I may even declare one in this situation - whatever runway I want isn't going to be in use by other traffic.
 
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EdFred said:
R & W -

Are we taking over a plane that only 2 people in the world are qualified to fly, and both are dead? I would think with 90 minutes of fuel on board you'd be able to find SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE to talk you through it. Screw the FMS, screw the autowhatzits, just give me someone on the radio who will tell me where the trim control is, how to disengage the autopilot, what the Vnumbers are, etc...

If it's programmed to fly to wherever, they can talk me through everything that needs to be done before we get to that point. Turn off all the automated crap 200 miles from destination so I can get a feel for the plane while descending, and vector me for a 50 mile final. They do still have the basic 6 pack available even if in glass screen form somewhere don't they?
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There is a trim wheel on the Airbus, but it's for setting the THS before takeoff, otherwise the airplane always maintains trim, i.e. you don't have a trim control in flight.

No six pack on an Airbus. You have a PFD and an ND, and in the center you have the EWD and SD. On the glare shield is the FCU which the crew sends commands to the FMGS along with the MCDU.

And in flight the thrust levers don't move, engines are controlled by the FMGS and FADECS. Moving the thrust levers aft out of the detent and the engines will correspond with the TLA.

Here's the point I'm trying to make, it's not so simple for a novice to jump in the seat, turn everything off and land the plane, not even Henning :rolleyes2:.

To manually land, one would have to disconnect the autothrust, turn off the flight directors and have an idea of Vapp, deploy the flaps on schedule and arm the auto spoilers, as well as be ready for some ECAM warnings along the way. Miss something and things will get interesting real fast. :D
 
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RotorAndWing said:
To manually land, one would have to disconnect the autothrust, turn off the flight directors and have an idea of Vapp, deploy the flaps on schedule and arm the auto spoilers, as well as be ready for some ECAM warnings along the way.
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Fully expected, but I'm assuming once everything automated is shut off it still obeys the same laws of physics that all the other fixed wingers obey. You still slow down, drop gear, deploy flaps/spoilers/slats/etc, maintain Vso * 1.3, keep the runway fixed in the windscreen, expect slower throttle response than a piston, don't mush it in like you do a Cherokee, and roll it allllllll the way to the end of the runway, right?

I don't think it would take an hour and a half to walk me through how to shut everything off - and I want everything off because I don't want to be arguing with the AP under 10,000'.
 
EdFred said:
Fully expected, but I'm assuming once everything automated is shut off it still obeys the same laws of physics that all the other fixed wingers obey. You still slow down, drop gear, deploy flaps/spoilers/slats/etc, maintain Vso * 1.3, keep the runway fixed in the windscreen, expect slower throttle response than a piston, don't mush it in like you do a Cherokee, and roll it allllllll the way to the end of the runway, right?

I don't think it would take an hour and a half to walk me through how to shut everything off - and I want everything off because I don't want to be arguing with the AP under 10,000'.
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FiFi still has a lot of protections built in, understanding how to use the automation (or lack of automation) is very important. Even with the autopilot turned off the airplane will still try to protect itself.

This airplane was not designed to be flown by amateurs. I know that sounds harsh, but that's a fact.

Common expression heard in an Airbus cockpit "Hey, what's it doing now?" :D
 
RotorAndWing said:
FiFi still has a lot of protections built in, understanding how to use the automation (or lack of automation) is very important. Even with the autopilot turned off the airplane will still try to protect itself.

This airplane was not designed to be flown by amateurs. I know that sounds harsh, but that's a fact.

Common expression heard in an Airbus cockpit "Hey, what's it doing now?" :D
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Note to self: Don't fly on an A3nn.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think the first words out of my mouth once they got someone knowledgeable about the airplane on the other end of the radio would be "Does this plane have Cat III capability?"
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BINGO!

Hell even Cat I will get you pretty close, lined up, and ready to touch down.
 
I have in Delta's full motion sims with a little coaching on systems and speeds. No one has offered the chance to see how that would translate to real life....but I gave them my phone number!
 
Henning said:
The information to fly the plane will be in the cockpit next to the seat or in the pilots cases. Not a likely scenario, but not destined to fail.
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Slow it up to conserve fuel and start reading....very quickly??! :yes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Here's the point I'm trying to make, it's not so simple for a novice to jump in the seat, turn everything off and land the plane, not even Henning :rolleyes2:.
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However, what you're missing is that this novice will have an incredible amount of incentive to learn what he needs to learn in the time available. Screwing up will not result in a talking-to, it will result in flaming death.
 
the more I think about this the more I am convinced the likelihood of a successful landing would depend on the communication skills and experience of the person on the other end of the radio. Successful landing I'll define as non life threatening injuries.
 
EdFred said:
Could I? Yes.
Would I?

Well, that's going to depend on a couple things. First I'm going to aprise ATC of the situation. Then I'm going to ask one of the others on the air what to company frequency is and see if I can get hold of someone at the airlines and start the negotiation.

"Yeah, I can land it no problem, but I'm gonna need you to get on the phone with the insurance group and see what's its worth them having it in reusable condition when I put it down. You really don't think I'm going to do this out of the goodness of my heart and save you guys millions of dollars while all I get is a thank you and maybe an invite to be on Leno or Lettermen. Screw that. So what's it worth to ya?"

Fame might be 15 minutes, but fortune lasts longer.
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In addition to the carrier and their underwriter, you could probably take up a collection from the pax and cabin crew. Maybe $1000 per survivor and $5000 each uninjured. Of course your position for price haggling with those onboard as well as the insurer would be a bit weak unless you happened to be carrying a parachute.
 
gismo said:
In addition to the carrier and their underwriter, you could probably take up a collection from the pax and cabin crew. Maybe $1000 per survivor and $5000 each uninjured. Of course your position for price haggling with those onboard as well as the insurer would be a bit weak unless you happened to be carrying a parachute.
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Wonder what stink you would get from TSA with a parachute for a carry on?
 
Skylane81E said:
Wonder what stink you would get from TSA with a parachute for a carry on?
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A fellow pilot got "caught" with his while commuting a while back..he got suspended from CASS for 30 days (= no jumpseating) and a capet dance...also got "detained" and treated like an animal for an hour or 2 by TSA
 
RotorAndWing said:
So how would you achieve full manual control? How would you get to that phase and then get it to land?
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If I have no one to ask, I would start by pulling the AP breakers, eventually that sucker is going to go into alternate or basic law. At this point it makes no difference what I do, we're all dead if I continue status quo so anything I do will have at worst a neutral result.
 
taters said:
A fellow pilot got "caught" with his while commuting a while back..he got suspended from CASS for 30 days (= no jumpseating) and a capet dance...also got "detained" and treated like an animal for an hour or 2 by TSA
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Since when did parachutes become illegal contraband?
 
Adding my story here...

The 747-400 sim flew pretty much like any other airplane, with these exceptions:

- Dutch roll tendency of a swept wing. Leave the rudder alone and let the Yaw Damper handle the tail.

- Crosswinds... Quit trying to screw with the rudder if you're not used to it, or you'll drag an outboard nacelle and die. See first item. :)

- Don't forget to arm the speedbrakes and the auto-brakes. They're your friends. Don't bother giving a crap about comfort, set the brakes to max.

- Someone else pointed this one out... Don't bother to taxi. Just ask how to shut it down and get out. Someone else can move the bastard later.

Now... R&W knows of what he speaks as far as the real problem for most PPLs...

- The hard part was the %#*+{% FMS. Nothing in 30 years of computer use prepared me for that user hostile interface. You would really need help with that from someone on a radio. Obviously it's a learnable system, but there's nothing clear or obvious about it.

- If the aircraft is stable and on AP, leave it the hell alone and get assistance on the horn before jacking with the AP. Any thoughts of "let's take it off AP and get a feel for it" is Hollywood BS.

(Nevertheless, dragging the bodies out of the seats is likely to pop one of the control columns with enough force in a Boeing to kick the AP offline. Not as easy to accidentally do, in an Airbus with side stick. :) )
 
denverpilot said:
- Crosswinds... Quit trying to screw with the rudder if you're not used to it, or you'll drag an outboard nacelle and die.
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Who said that? If you drag a nacelle, you drag a nacelle. Don't necessarily go cartwheeling down the runway.
 
denverpilot said:
- If the aircraft is stable and on AP, leave it the hell alone and get assistance on the horn before jacking with the AP. Any thoughts of "let's take it off AP and get a feel for it" is Hollywood BS.
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You suggest letting the AP take it down to 1000' feet, then disengage it only to find out then that there's a bunch of stuff not set correctly? Got it. Low altitude plus possible abrupt pitch changes. Sounds like nothing could go wrong in that scenario. None whatsoever.
 
Skylane81E said:
Wonder what stink you would get from TSA with a parachute for a carry on?
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FWIW, It's actually never been a problem for me. Rarely do the screeners have a clue but they seem to have been briefed on parachutes. USPA (parachuting equivalent to AOPA) has done a good job of advocating on this.....
 
jbarrass said:
FWIW, It's actually never been a problem for me. Rarely do the screeners have a clue but they seem to have been briefed on parachutes. USPA (parachuting equivalent to AOPA) has done a good job of advocating on this.....
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Good!
 
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