GA Activity Survey

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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UQACY, WI
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iMooniac
Any other owners get the postcard in the mail asking you to complete the survey online? I did this year, for the first time ever.

I had always thought that the FAA estimates of hours flown were based on fuel sales. I forget where I heard that (*coughPOA*) but apparently there's more to it.

There were quite a few questions. It asked about total hours flown of course, but also:

* Type of usage, everything from personal/recreational and business to aerial application, charter, and about a dozen other commercial uses
* Installed equipment, mainly ADS-B and GPS capabilities (VFR, IFR enroute, down several steps to LPV approach capable)
* What state most of the flying was done in
* What percentage of the hours were flown on an IFR flight plan, VFR flight plan, or no flight plan

Now I'm curious exactly how all that is used.

Results of past years' surveys are available here: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/general_aviation/
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Any other owners get the postcard in the mail asking you to complete the survey online? I did this year, for the first time ever.

I had always thought that the FAA estimates of hours flown were based on fuel sales. I forget where I heard that (*coughPOA*) but apparently there's more to it.

There were quite a few questions. It asked about total hours flown of course, but also:

* Type of usage, everything from personal/recreational and business to aerial application, charter, and about a dozen other commercial uses
* Installed equipment, mainly ADS-B and GPS capabilities (VFR, IFR enroute, down several steps to LPV approach capable)
* What state most of the flying was done in
* What percentage of the hours were flown on an IFR flight plan, VFR flight plan, or no flight plan

Now I'm curious exactly how all that is used.

Results of past years' surveys are available here: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/general_aviation/
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The see if you are a candidate for chemtrail squadron
 
I’ve been getting it for years and I always fill it out.
 
Not that, but have been getting a satisfaction survey from the tower at the Class-D I'm based at. They just want to make sure the local clientele is happy with the services they provide!
 
Rgbeard said:
If you fly enough hours, "Mother" will contact you with the appropriate tanks and schedule.
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I remember last time I called them "Mother" on a public forum. Scrubbed toilets, baked fat free cookies, ate salads, wanted to eat at the Wherever-I-dont-mind, painted my nails and visited the beauty salon twice a month. FOR A YEAR, and I didn't even mind. Crazy. Must have been something in the formulae that I found spilled in the shipment. "Enjoy the new moisturizing regime" said the last line on the instructions page. YMMV.

Remember to not include the CT flying in the survey.
 
Got it, don't complete it. Really don't care what it's for - assumed it had some use in justifying budgets, and/or supporting some stats and analysis. But can't feature doing busy work for the FAA, at least not for free, and considering their cavalier treatment of the rest of the data we give them, just no.
 
Never got one but wouldn't fill it out. Although I believe that I'm legal 100% of the time, why give them any ammunition just in case?
 
Sundancer said:
Got it, don't complete it. Really don't care what it's for - assumed it had some use in justifying budgets, and/or supporting some stats and analysis. But can't feature doing busy work for the FAA, at least not for free, and considering their cavalier treatment of the rest of the data we give them, just no.
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Wow.

What if those stats and analysis would help you?

lancie00 said:
Never got one but wouldn't fill it out. Although I believe that I'm legal 100% of the time, why give them any ammunition just in case?
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You think they're going to go correlating flight plans to survey results and somehow bust you for something? I think you give them wayyyyy too much credit. The people who bust pilots for breaking regs don't even work in the same locations as the people who would be analyzing the data... And the people who analyze the data don't really care what you're doing outside of what you tell them in the survey. Their job is to help FAA brass decide how to allocate the money that we all give them in fuel taxes, whether the accident rate is increasing or decreasing, etc...
 

Maybe, maybe not. But why would I ever take that chance? What benefit will I ever get out of it? Do you really think that the few hours I fly GA would make any difference at all in how the money is spent? In my case, it just doesn't make sense to give up any more information than necessary. Go ask an attorney, I doubt you'll ever find one that would say to send out more information.
If they want to know a better way to spend money, quit spending it on surveys.
 
lancie00 said:
Maybe, maybe not. But why would I ever take that chance? What benefit will I ever get out of it? Do you really think that the few hours I fly GA would make any difference at all in how the money is spent? In my case, it just doesn't make sense to give up any more information than necessary. Go ask an attorney, I doubt you'll ever find one that would say to send out more information.
If they want to know a better way to spend money, quit spending it on surveys.
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Then, they'll just spend it all on those who are loudest and have lobbyists: The airlines.

We need them to know that we're flying.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wow.

What if those stats and analysis would help you?



You think they're going to go correlating flight plans to survey results and somehow bust you for something? I think you give them wayyyyy too much credit. The people who bust pilots for breaking regs don't even work in the same locations as the people who would be analyzing the data... And the people who analyze the data don't really care what you're doing outside of what you tell them in the survey. Their job is to help FAA brass decide how to allocate the money that we all give them in fuel taxes, whether the accident rate is increasing or decreasing, etc...
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Betcha there are way more people who wish they gave the goverment LESS information vs MORE personal information.
 
Getting accurate flight hour information for GA is quite difficult, and has policy implications. Filling out the survey is a way to help increase the accuracy of the GA flight hour estimates. GA activity figures are important for prioritizing airport improvement funding and calculating more accurate safety statistics. Lack of good information could, for example, impact airport improvement funding, and the promulgation of burdensome safety regulations. The feds are uninformed enough as it is--I don't mind providing some data to enable more data-driven decision making. I'm not paranoid enough to conceive of how the government has the time or interest to personally go after me somehow for my flight hours reporting.

One side thought is that the rollout of ADS-B, it should in theory be able to capture in an automated way a really good cross section of GA flight hours on an annual basis.
 
James331 said:
Betcha there are way more people who wish they gave the goverment LESS information vs MORE personal information.
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"Personal" information?

Here's what I told them:

* I flew 92 hours last year, 100% personal/recreational
* My airplane has ADS-B In/Out, on a 1090/978 dual band system
* I have an IFR GPS that allows me to fly LPV approaches
* I burn about 13 gph average.

Putting on the tin foil hat:
If they really wanted to, they could figure out that I flew 92 hours last year by looking back at ADS-B data.
They can also figure out that I'm equipped by looking back at that.
They could probably correlate ADS-B with weather and/or ATC data to figure out that I can fly an LPV.
Some would say that they can find out how much fuel I bought by looking at my bank records and fuel prices.

Since they had to ask me these things, that presumably means that they don't have the budget to go to the effort of getting all this data on ME, PERSONALLY, and they're looking for a way to get AGGREGATE data.

Sheesh. Do you guys believe in chemtrails and flat earth too? :rolleyes:
 
chemgeek said:
Getting accurate flight hour information for GA is quite difficult, and has policy implications. Filling out the survey is a way to help increase the accuracy of the GA flight hour estimates. GA activity figures are important for prioritizing airport improvement funding and calculating more accurate safety statistics. Lack of good information could, for example, impact airport improvement funding, and the promulgation of burdensome safety regulations. The feds are uninformed enough as it is--I don't mind providing some data to enable more data-driven decision making. I'm not paranoid enough to conceive of how the government has the time or interest to personally go after me somehow for my flight hours reporting.
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This!!!

One side thought is that the rollout of ADS-B, it should in theory be able to capture in an automated way a really good cross section of GA flight hours on an annual basis.
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They still wouldn't know which planes are equipped without asking - All they would know is that their system hasn't seen N123AB. That could mean that either it's not equipped, or it's not flying.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
"Personal" information?


Here's what I told them:


* I flew 92 hours last year, 100% personal/recreational

* My airplane has ADS-B In/Out, on a 1090/978 dual band system

* I have an IFR GPS that allows me to fly LPV approaches

* I burn about 13 gph average.


Putting on the tin foil hat:

If they really wanted to, they could figure out that I flew 92 hours last year by looking back at ADS-B data.

They can also figure out that I'm equipped by looking back at that.

They could probably correlate ADS-B with weather and/or ATC data to figure out that I can fly an LPV.

Some would say that they can find out how much fuel I bought by looking at my bank records and fuel prices.


Since they had to ask me these things, that presumably means that they don't have the budget to go to the effort of getting all this data on ME, PERSONALLY, and they're looking for a way to get AGGREGATE data.


Sheesh. Do you guys believe in chemtrails and flat earth too?
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I’m sure if one really wanted they could find your social security number, WiFi password, sniff packets on your network and also get your kids/wife schedule too, however you don’t go giving that info to anyone who sends you a postcard anways do you?



But hey, if they were sincere, they wouldn’t include data that could tie to the individual or company, and just like how ADSB with the unnecessary sending of the N number hex isn’t required for better ATC coverage and you being able to see that traffic, the S isn’t for safety, it’s for surveillance.


Also looking at the history of big government over the last hundred years, yeah, noooope
 
James331 said:
I’m sure if one really wanted they could find your social security number, WiFi password, sniff packets on your network and also get your kids/wife schedule too, however you don’t go giving that info to anyone who sends you a postcard anways do you?
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Nope... But I do have "rewards" cards for various things, and as long as I don't have to register them with my name/number/email address (I'm looking at you, Panera) I will happily use them. So yeah, Kwik Trip will give me a free coffee every couple of weeks in exchange for knowing how often I visit and the types of products I buy, and that's fine with me.

My day job is developing applications to load and present data for analysis, as a consultant, so I've been able to see how collected data gets used in many different settings (marketing, manufacturing, health care, etc). If you think anyone really cares what you, personally, do... Well, I'd say you think you're more important to them than you really are.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Nope... But I do have "rewards" cards for various things, and as long as I don't have to register them with my name/number/email address (I'm looking at you, Panera) I will happily use them. So yeah, Kwik Trip will give me a free coffee every couple of weeks in exchange for knowing how often I visit and the types of products I buy, and that's fine with me.

My day job is developing applications to load and present data for analysis, as a consultant, so I've been able to see how collected data gets used in many different settings (marketing, manufacturing, health care, etc). If you think anyone really cares what you, personally, do... Well, I'd say you think you're more important to them than you really are.
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Databases like the one that got John and Martha King looking down the guns of multiple goverment workers?
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/John_Martha_King_Held_At_Gunpoint_203205-1.html

It’s also funny how folks are worried about terrorists™ or illegals, or drunk drivers or whatever, but goverment doesn’t make the threat matrix, gotta love the selective education of history.

If you’re a facts and figures guy, check this out
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Now me, I trust a guy with a govement ID “just asking questions” about as much as the random dude in the city who asks “do you have the time?” Now I don’t think the goverment cares anymore about me than the stickup dude, it’s nothing personal, just doing their respective jobs.
 
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James331 said:
Databases like the one that got John and Martha King looking down the guns of multiple goverment workers?
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/John_Martha_King_Held_At_Gunpoint_203205-1.html
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That had nothing to do with them sharing information, though. An airplane with that tail number had been stolen, and it was the second time there was a law enforcement response to it flying... Apparently the word didn't get back to the right people at the agency that marked it stolen. The same thing has actually happened to me with a semi trailer. You want 17 state troopers on your tail in a hurry, drive a trailer with a plate that was marked as stolen. And it wasn't the first time for that one, either.

If you’re a facts and figures guy, check this out
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
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Interesting, but again not really relevant. They already know you're a pilot, so if they want to kill all the pilots, they've already got you, and they know where you live.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That had nothing to do with them sharing information, though. An airplane with that tail number had been stolen, and it was the second time there was a law enforcement response to it flying... Apparently the word didn't get back to the right people at the agency that marked it stolen. The same thing has actually happened to me with a semi trailer. You want 17 state troopers on your tail in a hurry, drive a trailer with a plate that was marked as stolen. And it wasn't the first time for that one, either.



Interesting, but again not really relevant. They already know you're a pilot, so if they want to kill all the pilots, they've already got you, and they know where you live.
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Frankly I see giving more info as more risk than reward, YMMV
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wow.

What if those stats and analysis would help you?



You think they're going to go correlating flight plans to survey results and somehow bust you for something? I think you give them wayyyyy too much credit. The people who bust pilots for breaking regs don't even work in the same locations as the people who would be analyzing the data... And the people who analyze the data don't really care what you're doing outside of what you tell them in the survey. Their job is to help FAA brass decide how to allocate the money that we all give them in fuel taxes, whether the accident rate is increasing or decreasing, etc...
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No tinfoil hat here; but the survey seems unlikely to alter the trajectory of whatever bad idea du jour FAA management has in mind. The stats will (likely) be massaged to support whatever course of action has the organization's attention. They don't have a track record that encourages any kind of voluntary information sharing.

If they want "counts", then do the legwork and get real numbers - use some basic big data mining and the info already available to them, which would be at least as accurate as incomplete spot estimates from us.

You are correct in that the diffrent groups within the FAA are clueless about what's happening elsewhere in the org. . .
 
Sundancer said:
No tinfoil hat here; but the survey seems unlikely to alter the trajectory of whatever bad idea du jour FAA management has in mind. The stats will (likely) be massaged to support whatever course of action has the organization's attention. They don't have a track record that encourages any kind of voluntary information sharing.

If they want "counts", then do the legwork and get real numbers - use some basic big data mining and the info already available to them, which would be at least as accurate as incomplete spot estimates from us.
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Actually, the "spot estimates" can greatly help the accuracy of the information they do have. If they look at 100LL sales, who knows what happened? A Cub and a 421 will take vastly different amounts of fuel, so estimating hours flown greatly depends on knowing how many hours those various types tend to fly, and what their fuel burn is... Both things they get from the survey.

Using the info already available to them is "mushy" at best, and in the absence of further information like what the survey provides, likely leads to the bad ideas that you're talking about. I always like to say that no data is better than bad data, but you know they're going to work with whatever they have... So let's help them to have better ideas by helping to make their data better.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Actually, the "spot estimates" can greatly help the accuracy of the information they do have. If they look at 100LL sales, who knows what happened? A Cub and a 421 will take vastly different amounts of fuel, so estimating hours flown greatly depends on knowing how many hours those various types tend to fly, and what their fuel burn is... Both things they get from the survey.

Using the info already available to them is "mushy" at best, and in the absence of further information like what the survey provides, likely leads to the bad ideas that you're talking about. I always like to say that no data is better than bad data, but you know they're going to work with whatever they have... So let's help them to have better ideas by helping to make their data better.
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Helping them make better ideas, that sounds like writing letters, calling your Congress critters and TELLING them what to do, not giving them your personal info.
 
James331 said:
Helping them make better ideas, that sounds like writing letters, calling your Congress critters and TELLING them what to do, not giving them your personal info.
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Again... I didn't give them any "personal info". And telling them what to do is going to be meaningless when "our data shows that..." Data beats opinions every time.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Again... I didn't give them any "personal info". And telling them what to do is going to be meaningless when "our data shows that..." Data beats opinions every time.
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And with how stats can be bent to show whatever, guess I’m back to just round file it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Actually, the "spot estimates" can greatly help the accuracy of the information they do have. If they look at 100LL sales, who knows what happened? A Cub and a 421 will take vastly different amounts of fuel, so estimating hours flown greatly depends on knowing how many hours those various types tend to fly, and what their fuel burn is... Both things they get from the survey.

Using the info already available to them is "mushy" at best, and in the absence of further information like what the survey provides, likely leads to the bad ideas that you're talking about. I always like to say that no data is better than bad data, but you know they're going to work with whatever they have... So let's help them to have better ideas by helping to make their data better.
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I was mostly referring to data the FAA already owns - radar coverage over most of the lower 48, call signs, altitudes, ADS-B, and GS to diffrentiate GA lower end from big guys, and a bit of filtering for "in the middle guys". . . movements at GA dominated airports, vice metropolitan airports, and, again, some big data massaging to refine for those in between. It's a small set of points by big data standards, and neither the volume nor the velocity of the data is very large - there just aren't that many aircraft movements in a day, or a year, in the US compared to many datasets that are routinely mined.

It would be imperfect, but a sight more accurate than wild guesses by folks, or no data at all from people like me.

And I admit I just don't care to assist, and repeat that I suspect the FAA will use the info to support whatever initiative is nearest thier heart, be it budget or political favor. Could it, eventually, maybe, be of GA benefit? It might, but that would be an lucky coincidence.
 
Sundancer said:
I was mostly referring to data the FAA already owns - radar coverage over most of the lower 48, call signs, altitudes, ADS-B, and GS to diffrentiate GA lower end from big guys, and a bit of filtering for "in the middle guys". . . movements at GA dominated airports, vice metropolitan airports, and, again, some big data massaging to refine for those in between. It's a small set of points by big data standards, and neither the volume nor the velocity of the data is very large - there just aren't that many aircraft movements in a day, or a year, in the US compared to many datasets that are routinely mined.
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And I would tell you that data would skew things toward airlines and "big" GA (bizjets, turboprops, pressurized/turbo pistons). Plenty of flights in the northern half of my state never make it onto radar... Is there no flying, or are the retired guys up there with their Cubs flying the hell out of them? Or Cessnas, for that matter. Lots of space up there where Minneapolis Center doesn't have any radar coverage below about 8,000 feet... And lots of recreational flying happening too.

Also, even where there is radar data, plenty of it is only a primary target. That doesn't tell you what it is or what it's burning, merely that something is there... And the something could be a bugsmasher with a headwind or a flock of geese.

So, again, any additional data that we can provide helps them to do what you're talking about, making the entire set of data more accurate.
 
I misspoke, or wasn't articulate enough - I don't care if their data on GA is accurate, as I don't have any faith that it would benefit GA in any case.
 
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