Fuller: Focus on training can help GA...

[Armageddon Aviator]

"One of the things is to better understand how to help people successfully get through training," said Craig Fuller, president of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. Fuller cited a recent AOPA study that found 80% of flight students dropped out after starting training.

http://www.ainonline.com/airshow-convention-news/dubai-air-show/single-publication-story/article/can-general-aviation-reverse-its-decline-28804/

I personally disagree.

The assumption that everyone can become a pilot is just wrong.

It takes a lot of determination and perseverance, discipline, skill, money...and a bit of courage (remember your first solo cross-country ?).

Some folks try their best to convince us that becoming a pilot is no big deal and that everybody can do it...

I don't want to glorify pilots (enough movies did that pretty well) - but I think the AOPA should not endorse that kind of statements...

 

[steingar]

One has to look at the reasons students are leaving flight schools. It is my understanding that most students don't just wash out, but they leave because the culture or surrounds are not to their liking. Given the slowly shrinking pilot pool, it makes sense to address what factors in the training environment are likely to dissuade students, and make efforts to correct them.

 

[TMetzinger]

Not everyone can become a pilot... but a lot more CAN than DO. We don't have to lower standards, perhaps we need to offer more support and encouragement. Consider these two statements in response to a student remark of "wow this is harder than I thought"...

A. "You've got to really want it. It's not for everyone."
B. "It's not easy, that's true. But you CAN do it. It will just take some time and effort. Ask any golfer about their learning to play."

I've heard both answers - guess which answer got a student who completed their certificate.

Fuller and AOPA are talking about a culture change in training - though I note that the schools that are successful seemed to get this all along.

 

[zaitcev]

The assumption that everyone can become a pilot is just wrong.

It may be true that not everyone can or should become a (safe) pilot, but is not the issue here at all! The issue is the dramatic decline in numbers of private pilots in America, which shows no signs of stopping any time soon. Why talk about "everyone" becoming a pilot when nobody will be a pilot in the near future (except pros)?

Russia and China had a century of aviation culture each, where anyone who wanted to fly had to become a cog in the big professional machine. It is not impossible for America to degenerate into this model within 20 years. I am not ok with that.

 

[Ted]

The first flight I took with someone, he convinced me that flying a Cherokee was something so difficult that there was no way I could do it. Fortunately, some other people took me flying and convinced me otherwise.

I agree with Tim. We need to get more the ones who can become pilots to become pilots. I was very close to not joining the ranks, and I'm probably not the only one.

 

[AuntPeggy]

If 80% of those who start flight training do not complete it, does that mean that 80% just aren't good enough. I think highly of myself, but not that highly. It's true that not everyone can do it, but the percentage should be a lot less than it is.

 

[Trapper John]

If 80% of those who start flight training do not complete it, does that mean that 80% just aren't good enough. I think highly of myself, but not that highly. It's true that not everyone can do it, but the percentage should be a lot less than it is.

Good point. Maybe some people start and decide the fun per dollar ratio isn't there or there just isn't a good enough payoff at the end of training to justify the effort - paying $6-7,000 to get a ticket that grants you the privilege to pay $100/hr to rent clapped-out 172s or Cherokees just might not make much sense to some people. I'm pretty sure a big chunk of the 80% that drop out don't drop out because they just can't hack it.

 

[dmccormack]

I think drop outs happen for several reasons:

• Run out of money: Starts with $500, figuring to pay as you go. Soon other bills, etc catch up. Do I really want to drive 45 minutes to the airport to spend $200 bucks? Nah....
• Been there, done that: The thrill wears out.
• Lack of support: "Why are you flying n those little airplanes?! You could get killed! Uncle Harry was killed instantly!"
• No future: So I get my private pilot certificate, spend al my money and then...? HOW much to buy an airplane? Whoa...
• Solo, then what? (See Been There, Done That)

 

[denverpilot]

Most airports have dumpy facilities in need of paint, new carpet, a refresh on their furniture, and a refresh on the attitude of the 20-somethings behind the counter. They follow this up with dumpy aircraft in need of paint, new carpet, a refresh on the upholstery, and then if you're lucky... You hit the one CFI out of three who "gets it" that even though HE isn't getting the cash, you're paying the equivalent of hiring a $100-$200K professional per hour to hire him and the aircraft if you lump it all together.

The two flight schools around here who are gaining students at a rapid pace are the guys who just bought Gobosh (the whole company...), Chris Dillard at Skyraider Aviation -- and the guys who specialized first in nothing but Cirri but have now expanded to add twins and other non-Cirri for advanced ratings. One other place with a steady business is an ex-DC-10 driver who does 10 day IFR and other accelerated training.

The traditional flight clubs have customers but are dumps. Their people help save them by bringing in new folk, but if you walked in off the street, the places look the same as they did back when I started flying in 1991.

If we're going to run Rent-A-Wreck franchises nationwide, let's at least throw down some cheap new carpet and have the kids slap up a coat of fresh paint on the walls.

 

[steingar]

Most people who have the money to become pilots are used to first class. Walk then into the FBO at my airport, then the ratty airplanes flown by the FBO at my airport, and they'll probably walk right back out. Couple that with the CFIs who are barely old enough to shave and didn't care in the first place except for building hours and getting that big airline job and it gets worse. Add in the public perception (my buddy's wife has not only not flown in the aircraft, she's never even looked at it) and it gets worse still. Add in the almost complete lack of utility, and it gets even worse. Add in the expense, and worse still. And our pilot culture is definitely not helping things. I'm amazed anyone goes through the process to become a pilot. I guess what the other guys said, with emphasis mine. The fewer the pilots, the fewer the aircraft and the more expensive the stuff. Repeat and rinse as necessary.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I've started to think that flight schools missed the boat a few years ago when they essentially ignored the Recreational certificate. To my way of thinking, it is just about the same as getting past initial solo requirements without going all the way to be able to fly at night, with more than one passenger, more than 50 miles from the home drome. There are a lot of people who would be happy with just that much. Throw in that they can then continue toward a Private Pilot and remove the aforementioned restrictions, without needing a sign-off for every flight and maybe you'd get more people in the sky.

My 2cents worth.

 

[dmccormack]

I've started to think that flight schools missed the boat a few years ago when they essentially ignored the Recreational certificate. To my way of thinking, it is just about the same as getting past initial solo requirements without going all the way to be able to fly at night, with more than one passenger, more than 50 miles from the home drome. There are a lot of people who would be happy with just that much. Throw in that they can then continue toward a Private Pilot and remove the aforementioned restrictions, without needing a sign-off for every flight and maybe you'd get more people in the sky.

My 2cents worth.

The problem was -- no lease backs were LSA eligible. And three or four $100K+ LSAs weren't in the budget of most shoestring flight schools.

 

[JeffDG]

The problem was -- no lease backs were LSA eligible. And three or four $100K+ LSAs weren't in the budget of most shoestring flight schools.

LSA has nothing to do with the RP certificate.

RP is good up to 4 seaters with 180 HP, so all your 172s, Warriors, Traumahawks, etc. are all RP capable planes.

Only issue is, you still need a 3rd Class.

 

[dmccormack]

LSA has nothing to do with the RP certificate.

RP is good up to 4 seaters with 180 HP, so all your 172s, Warriors, Traumahawks, etc. are all RP capable planes.

Only issue is, you still need a 3rd Class.

Sorry -- you're right. I read "Recreational" but was thinking "Sport"

I don't remember anyone ever asking about rec, but have had several inquiries about Sport.

 

[JeffDG]

Sorry -- you're right. I read "Recreational" but was thinking "Sport"

I don't remember anyone ever asking about rec, but have had several inquiries about Sport.

Personally, all the people who are asking for a higher weight limit for LSA, I suggest they try and get the DL medical applicable to RP privileges. That would let you fly a big chunk of the GA fleet, provided you limited yourself to a single passenger, and day/vfr.

 

[TMetzinger]

LSA has nothing to do with the RP certificate.

RP is good up to 4 seaters with 180 HP, so all your 172s, Warriors, Traumahawks, etc. are all RP capable planes.

Only issue is, you still need a 3rd Class.

Rec pilot certificate limitations on things like X/C can be big turnoffs.

What I see around here indicates that the sport pilot certificate is a much better fit for the clientele than the rec pilot was.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Rec pilot certificate limitations on things like X/C can be big turnoffs.

What I see around here indicates that the sport pilot certificate is a much better fit for the clientele than the rec pilot was.

So, for those students, the Recreational is a stepping stone toward Private Pilot or Sport Pilot, not a destination in itself. Gives them more independence than simply solo privileges as a Student pilot. This assumes that the medical is not an issue.

 

[TMetzinger]

So, for those students, the Recreational is a stepping stone toward Private Pilot or Sport Pilot, not a destination in itself. Gives them more independence than simply solo privileges as a Student pilot. This assumes that the medical is not an issue.

Uhhh... no.

Sport pilot gives more privileges in the same or LESS time than a rec pilot, or at least more practical privileges.

Sport pilots can fly X/C - Rec Pilots need a signoff
Rec pilots can fly at night - sport pilots cannot.

Really, the Rec pilot certificate was never successful because it didn't make much sense - there wasn't THAT much extra to do to get a Private.

 

[murphey]

Last Saturday was our monthly Young Eagle day. I was doing the logbooks for a change (instead of flying) for various reasons. Without a doubt, every kid that came back wanted to learn to fly. Now, it's not appropriate for me or Young Eagles or EAA to recommend a specific school or such. But I make sure to chat with the kids (assuming they're 14 or older) about the differences & advantages of starting with glider lessons and/or Sport Pilot vs Private. On the back of their certificate I list the local schools and a contact name (the advantage of knowing most of the schools, rental prices and owners). I have no idea how many will take the next step but at least they have a starting point. And for the older ones, I make sure the parent has my business card so they can contact me for more info.

I've also been known to take parents who've never been in a small aircraft for a separate ride after the YE event is officially over. I think they have more fun than the kids.

 

[flav8r]

I can think of many reasons why the pilot population will continue to dwindle down but the fix is much more complicated than most people realize.

I have been on both sides of the fence over the years and I can tell you that with all the post 9-11 security measures most GA airports are no longer spectator friendly anymore.
Most future pilots start out as spectators (aka: Fence Hangers).

The other problem is that too many flight schools have a limited or poor selection of aircraft to choose from.
The exception to this seems to be in areas such as KDAB, KSFB, KORL and other airports that have a fair amount of flight schools to choose from.

And then there's the rising cost of fight training which was around $1800 for a private pilot when I first started flying and now it's close to $8000.

A mentor would go a long way to finding out who really wants to be a pilot.
So the next time you see a kid hanging out on the other side of the barbed wire fence invite them over to see your plane up close, and when their eyes glaze over or light up you'll know you have a future pilot that could use all your encouragement.
Sometimes those that are impressed and in awe of pilots assume that they are not as good or as smart and in most cases just need to be told that they ARE.

The YE program is great but it doesn't tell the kids to come back and hang out, you have to do it yourself.

 

[MadseasoN]

I think drop outs happen for several reasons:

• Run out of money: Starts with $500, figuring to pay as you go. Soon other bills, etc catch up. Do I really want to drive 45 minutes to the airport to spend $200 bucks? Nah....
• Been there, done that: The thrill wears out.
• Lack of support: "Why are you flying n those little airplanes?! You could get killed! Uncle Harry was killed instantly!"
• No future: So I get my private pilot certificate, spend al my money and then...? HOW much to buy an airplane? Whoa...
• Solo, then what? (See Been There, Done That)

I agree.

Several people at my job have asked me about pilot training. They have all said it's something they've "always wanted to do" then ask what the costs are. These folks make $80K-$100K+ and when they hear $100/hr for plane rental + instructor fee they all have pretty much had the same reaction. "Oh". That's pretty much the end of the coversation.

I also agree with several other posters. It's something that you have to REALLY want. It has to be a lifestyle. Otherwise I don't think you'll make it.

 

[Trapper John]

Personally, all the people who are asking for a higher weight limit for LSA, I suggest they try and get the DL medical applicable to RP privileges. That would let you fly a big chunk of the GA fleet, provided you limited yourself to a single passenger, and day/vfr.

But the 50 nm restriction is awfully limiting.

As far as LSA goes, why FAA thinks that an old taildragger Cub or Champ with no electrical system that has to be hand-propped is OK, but a C-150 with a full gyro panel and basic avionics isn't OK completely escapes me.

 

[JeffDG]

So, for those students, the Recreational is a stepping stone toward Private Pilot or Sport Pilot, not a destination in itself. Gives them more independence than simply solo privileges as a Student pilot. This assumes that the medical is not an issue.

But...if they could get a DL medical for RP, it would be an excellent option for already certificated PPs who let their medicals lapse...they already have the XC training and such, and they could fly the whole range of low-performance two and four seaters. (OK, not all of them...but a really big chunk)

 

[RyanShort1]

Much as I hate to say this. I think a lot of the failure to convert rates should be pointed right back at those of use who are CFIs. Some CFI's are obviously not the problem, but I think more often than not, a mediocre CFI can be a seriously de-motivating factor. That scares me.
I have worked with several students who's level of flying, knowledge, etc... was a rather bad reflection on their previous instructor's work. I fear the day that one of my students becomes that kind of individual, too. That's why I try to work hard to push them on to their license.
I do believe some folks drop out for other reasons. If they do, I at least hope that like one such student I've had so far, they get complimented on doing well at whatever they did learn.

Ryan

 

[Armageddon Aviator]

One has to look at the reasons students are leaving flight schools. It is my understanding that most students don't just wash out, but they leave because the culture or surrounds are not to their liking. Given the slowly shrinking pilot pool, it makes sense to address what factors in the training environment are likely to dissuade students, and make efforts to correct them.

I totally agree.

If the AOPA wants to improve the training process and contribute to the creation of a modernized and streamlined syllabus - I completely support that.

But if they want to convince the public that flight training is a "piece of cake" and that everybody can do it - I think they are misleading and will not get positive results.

 

[zaitcev]

Compared to other things people do, training for Private Pilot level is not difficult. In my life PP Certificate was the only thing that I actually managed to see through in recent decades. I studied Japanese (3rd language) and only managed old JLPT 3 (now 4). I practiced Tae Kwon Do, took exams twice and failed both times (with injuries, that were basically self-inflicted). I looked at PhD in CS, took a few grad classes, and decided not even bother.

What is hard about flying? The hardest part is money required. Flying is by far the most expensive hobby I ever had, by order of magnitude even. The second hardest part is the high stakes and the resulting need to be eternally vigilant. Then, we have bizantine regulations, and finally the biggest mystery in GA: all that airplane does depends on its angle of attack, but there is no instrument showing the angle of attack. Once you understand how to guess the relative wind, you have it made, as far as manipulation of controls is concerned.

To imagine that only 200,000 out of 380,000,000 people are capable of being excellent pilots is ridiculous. It can only be entertained by people who did not try the harder things that non-pilots do.

Now, certainly, aviation has a lot of growth head, e.g. high class aerobatic competitions, bush flying, military aviation, tricky professional aviation such as external loads and aerial application. I understand that it is difficult, but let's not confuse all that with the issue at hand, which is very basic instruction and routine operation of privately owned light airplanes.

 

[Ted]

I don't think flying is difficult. However, there are a number of people out there who simply do not have the aptitude to do it. Not unlike driving a car, learning a musical instrument, etc. My mother is one such individual - she can't even drive a car, much less fly a plane.

Similarly, there are a number of things I do not have the aptitude to do. Learn a foreign language comes to mind. I know people who are great at it. I am the first person to admit that it is a shortcoming of mine. I spent 6 years studying Spanish, and all I can say is "No hablo nada espanol", "Donde esta el bano?" or, when I'm in Mexico, "No tengo nada dinero, solamente American Express."

There are many more people that can fly than do, and we need to find those people (there are way more than 200,000). But there are also a number of people who can't.

 

[Everskyward]

Similarly, there are a number of things I do not have the aptitude to do. Learn a foreign language comes to mind. I know people who are great at it. I am the first person to admit that it is a shortcoming of mine. I spent 6 years studying Spanish, and all I can say is "No hablo nada espanol", "Donde esta el bano?" or, when I'm in Mexico, "No tengo nada dinero, solamente American Express."

I'm making about my 3rd attempt to learn Spanish right now and it's way more difficult for me than anything I have done in flying. I tried French in HS and Japanese in college but I have never been able to get much beyond baby phrases. I also have a piano which I never play even though I took many years of lessons as a kid, and a flute somewhere in a drawer.

I also wonder sometimes about the flying. If I had not finally decided to try it as a career would I have kept on with it? Would I have been able to justify the expense? No sé.

 

[Jim Logajan]

What is hard about flying? The hardest part is money required.

You must have wads of free time, too. I set out in earnest in June of last year - first to get the written out of the way (using Gleim's computer-generated endorsement) then secured a CFI by August. Although I'm self-employed and can adjust my work schedule to make time for flying lessons, six months later I'm only now nearing the final stages for the examination. I expect another month for that to happen - weather, weather, and weather have continued to impede progress.

I also happen to disagree that nothing about flying is hard. That's not relevant - it's the learning that is hard! Based on the posts here, I can only assume that I rank among the inept. Yes, it is not difficult to fly - once one has learned how.

I think anyone claiming that it is "easy" to fly has to explain just why 75% to 80% of accidents are pilot error even after all the training - and why there are roughly 10 times as many accidents per hour in small airplanes as in automobiles. I think it is disingenuous to suggest or claim that flying is "easy" in any honest sense of the word.

 

[rpadula]

I think anyone claiming that it is "easy" to fly has to explain just why 75% to 80% of accidents are pilot error even after all the training - and why there are roughly 10 times as many accidents per hour in small airplanes as in automobiles. I think it is disingenuous to suggest or claim that flying is "easy" in any honest sense of the word.

I'm guessing Pete didn't mean "easy" as in "as easy as driving a car," but it being "easier" than non-aviating people think. To people who asked me about it being hard (and afraid of being overwhelmed by all those instruments staring back at them in the panel ), I'd say that when it comes to the flying part, if you can drive a stick, you can learn to fly the plane -- i.e. if you can work all 4 limbs independently (yoke, throttle, rudder pedals), you'll probably do OK.

 

[denverpilot]

Heck until I flew gliders and taildraggers, I'm pretty sure my feet didn't even operate independently. That or they simply weren't hooked to my brain. They still might not be.

 

[Ted]

I'm making about my 3rd attempt to learn Spanish right now and it's way more difficult for me than anything I have done in flying. I tried French in HS and Japanese in college but I have never been able to get much beyond baby phrases. I also have a piano which I never play even though I took many years of lessons as a kid, and a flute somewhere in a drawer.

I have a church organ in my house that I don't play much, either, despite having taken 8 years worth of lessons. I know how it goes...

I also wonder sometimes about the flying. If I had not finally decided to try it as a career would I have kept on with it? Would I have been able to justify the expense? No sé.

So far, I've done 0 hours worth of personal flying this year. But then again, if I wasn't off flying dogs everywhere, I might actually have the time to do some personal flying. For those of us who live in the flying world, it is definitely an interesting question to answer. No question that I'd be flying fewer hours if I didn't do my animal rescue work, but I don't know if that number would shrink to 200, 100, 10...

 

[murphey]

Heck until I flew gliders and taildraggers, I'm pretty sure my feet didn't even operate independently. That or they simply weren't hooked to my brain. They still might not be.

If it's a matter of muscle memory or not knowing what your feet are doing (feets, don't fail me now!), try a trap set. All 4 limbs go in different directions, at different times and only partially coordinated. And the "language" or notation is definitely not Latin-based!

Perhaps this is the market we should be going after - musicians?

 

[Trapper John]

Perhaps this is the market we should be going after - musicians?

Musicians tend not to make much money, though.

 

[murphey]

Musicians tend not to make much money, though.

Neither do most CFIs.

 

[Trapper John]

Neither do most CFIs.

Seems to me that there are two groups of CFIs. One are the part-timers that have good enough day jobs for them to have paid for their ratings, and the other are the young ones building time for their aviation career. There are something like 90,000 CFIs out there, how many fall into each category, I'm not sure.

 

[Ted]

Seems to me that there are two groups of CFIs. One are the part-timers that have good enough day jobs for them to have paid for their ratings, and the other are the young ones building time for their aviation career. There are something like 90,000 CFIs out there, how many fall into each category, I'm not sure.

Most of the instructional hours out there are probably from young ones building time.

I've had my CFI for a year and a half, and only given 107 hours of dual. In that same time, I've flown about 600-750 hours total.

 

[Trapper John]

Most of the instructional hours out there are probably from young ones building time.

I've had my CFI for a year and a half, and only given 107 hours of dual. In that same time, I've flown about 600-750 hours total.

I think there are a lot of CFIs that must not be giving much instruction at all, since there are almost more CFIs than there are student pilots.

With only about 613,000 active pilots and 1/3 of that number being private pilots that probably aren't getting much instruction beyond a flight review every other year, there probably aren't a whole lot of instructing hours to go around.

 

[dmccormack]

I think there are a lot of CFIs that must not be giving much instruction at all, since there are almost more CFIs than there are student pilots.

With only about 613,000 active pilots and 1/3 of that number being private pilots that probably aren't getting much instruction beyond a flight review every other year, there probably aren't a whole lot of instructing hours to go around.

There are at least 5 CFIs I know who haven't done much dual in the past 5 years....

 

[Everskyward]

I think there are a number of different aspects to learning how to fly and some people are better at one than another.

There is the mechanical aspect which has to do with being able to sense where you are in space as well as being able to manipulate a vehicle to make it do what you want. I think that people who have participated in some other motion-based activity have an advantage here. That would include people who have sailed boats, ridden motorcycles, skied, and ridden horses, among other things.

Then there is the academic aspect. I think that anyone who is reasonably intelligent and is able to put in a certain amount of study should do OK with this. However, I have found that there are people who are a bit intimidated by testing. Usually those are people who have been out of school for a while and their job does not require taking tests.

Someone's confidence level also plays a big part. It's a handicap when someone is too under-confident in that they are not comfortable enough to trust themselves alone in an airplane. This can be overcome to a certain extent but I think it also plays a part in why people drop out since it's probably not that enjoyable to always be worried. Obviously there is also a problem when someone is overconfident. This is an area when it is good to be somewhere in the middle.

To say that only a fraction of people have the aptitude is incorrect in my view, and a little elitist. But then I figure that anything I can do, most other people can learn to do.