Full scale biplane takes out giant scale R/C at event

Am I the only one that thinks "hovering" RC fixed wing aircraft is rather boring to watch and not impressive at all? :goofy:

No. I'm an RC guy too and I get it - it takes a lot of skill to hover and airplane. I get it that you're doing something that you won't see at an full scale airshow, at least that low to the ground. I'm still bored with the whole 3-D scene. I'd much rather see someone fly like an airplane was intended to fly, less tumbling and hovering, more graceful application of skill.
 
What's an illegal low pass??? Anyone have a reg to cite for why a pass down a runway is illegal? It definitely doesn't fit the definition of aerobatics, since there wasn't any extreme roll or pitch attitudes.

Buzz jobs are illegal since they fail the 500' person, vessel or structure distance requirement.

At CO12 you are always within 500' of houses, people, and vessels whenever you takeoff, land or go-around.
This subject came up recently while we were planning for our airshow. We'd wanted to do flour bombing competition but the crowd line is only 300 feet from the runway centerline - the show line used by the airshow pilots is a treeline 700 feet further away.

Having pilots do a flour bomb run would bring them closer to the crowd than 500 feet without taking off or landing, and we weren't getting a waiver for that reg.

Our solution? Spot landing contest. Gives the local pilots a chance to show off (for safety the competition is limited to airplanes with a local active CFI on board), gives the crowd something to watch, and stays within the regs.
 
What's an illegal low pass??? Anyone have a reg to cite for why a pass down a runway is illegal? It definitely doesn't fit the definition of aerobatics, since there wasn't any extreme roll or pitch attitudes.

FAR 91.303 ... For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Pilots have been violated for high speed low passes over a runway if the maneuver was not something that the pilot could have landed out of because it was not necessary for normal flight. It's bovine scat but it happens and you conduct a low pass at risk to your ticket. That's why, if you come to an aerobatic competition with the best hot dog pilots in the region in attendance, you won't see any low passes. We keep our antics to waivered or otherwise legal airspace.
 
Our solution? Spot landing contest. Gives the local pilots a chance to show off (for safety the competition is limited to airplanes with a local active CFI on board), gives the crowd something to watch, and stays within the regs.

Good practice for Oshkosh. :thumbsup:

So is the CFI getting paid by the hour for his trips around the pattern? :idea:
 
FAR 91.303 ... For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Pilots have been violated for high speed low passes over a runway if the maneuver was not something that the pilot could have landed out of because it was not necessary for normal flight. It's bovine scat but it happens and you conduct a low pass at risk to your ticket. That's why, if you come to an aerobatic competition with the best hot dog pilots in the region in attendance, you won't see any low passes. We keep our antics to waivered or otherwise legal airspace.
Do you know for a fact that they dinged for violating 91.303 and not some other regulation?
 
So I guess I was in violation, not once, but twice at GRR. I was flying a practice ILS on 26L in my Cherokee, and was in front of a KC-135 also doing practice approaches. Approach asked me for max forward speed. I don't know anyone who can land a Cherokee 1/2 way into the yellow. I can not recall if the tower cleared me for "the option" or if I was instructed not to land.

Another time I was flying my Comanche on the ILS to 8R. Again, in front of a faster plane. This time the feds test flying approaches. I was asked if I could maintain 150kts on the approach. Sure, no problem. Except I can't drop the gear until 130kts. In addition, from what I recall I was instructed to only fly the approach, and not to land. Not like I was going to anyway.

In neither case was there intent to land.
 
You just need to look at the overall intent of this sort of thing. If you have a valid reason to not land then you'll be fine. Valid reasons might be looking for issues with the runway or doing practice approaches with low misses. Another valid reason might be teaching a student how to fly down a runway.

If you just come screaming towards a runway with no real intent other than to go low, fast, and then pull up steep, be aware that it could cause an issue for you. Certain airports are more likely to cause issues. If there are lots of people around, it's an even worse idea.
 
If he has a date with the ALJ, it probably means that the pilot did not accept the terms or settlement offered by the FAA (length of suspension, revocation, or other punishment). The ALJ is the second tier of defense, with the final being an appeal to the full board of the full board of the NTSB (who almost never overturn an FAA decision).

My guess is that witness statements will be key: if the pilot made appropriate calls in the pattern, was otherwise acting in a reasonable and prudent fashion, and then decided to go around due to traffic on the runway, then he probably has a reasonable defense.

Remember that it is up to the FAA to prove that he acted in a careless and negligent fashion. Unless he made some incriminating statements to the initial investigator, they still have the burden of proof. It is the FAA that has to determine intent.

However, they are also the judge and jury as well, and this is why the next step is to present the case to the ALJ. If neither party is satisfied with the decision of the ALJ, they can take it to the full board of the NTSB, but again, the board almost never over rules an FAA decision.

So, it certainly looks like the Acrosport pilot was charged with some FAR infraction, probably to include the catch all "careless and negligent". which is so broad and vague it can apply to almost anything when there is an untoward outcome. He probably did not want to accept an initial offer of a suspension, or the other associated terms, and now wants to appeal to the ALJ.
 
FAR 91.303 ... For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

Pilots have been violated for high speed low passes over a runway if the maneuver was not something that the pilot could have landed out of because it was not necessary for normal flight. It's bovine scat but it happens and you conduct a low pass at risk to your ticket. That's why, if you come to an aerobatic competition with the best hot dog pilots in the region in attendance, you won't see any low passes. We keep our antics to waivered or otherwise legal airspace.

So I searched the NTSB filings to see if I could figure out what the scenarios are where someone would be cited for violation of 91.303 or 91.119. Unfortunately the search only goes through appeals, I'll have tofind out where to get the original citations.

However, my cursory review tends to indicate that most folks who are cited with .303 violations have racked up a bunch of other violations in the process and are not being cited simply for a low-pass.

91.119 on the other hand, has some good pearls:

Order # 4020.
"Respondent . . . operate[d] his aircraft in a highspeed
pass down the entire length of the Cedar Valley
Airport at an altitude of about 50 feet AGL [(above
ground level)], the airspeed being somewhere between
200 and 300 knots, that such was not necessary for
purposes of takeoff or landing or . . . demonstrating
an approach -- missed approach, and the area was,
in fact, not a suitable area for purposes of landing
. . . . [and was] admittedly within less than 500
feet of people, structures, and vehicles on the
surface."
 
Do you know for a fact that they dinged for violating 91.303 and not some other regulation?

They'll always throw in "Reckless" on an enforcement action. Look up the case for Andrzejewski. She took off, circled around for a low pass with the smoke on, wagged the wings and left. A couple of fine upstanding pilots standing around the airport took exception to her antics and filed the complaint that ended in an enforcement upheld on appeal.
 
If there are lots of people around, it's an even worse idea.
You mean like at Gaston's? I think it will be interesting to see if you've become more conservative now that you're a CFI.:cornut:
 
They'll always throw in "Reckless" on an enforcement action. Look up the case for Andrzejewski. She took off, circled around for a low pass with the smoke on, wagged the wings and left. A couple of fine upstanding pilots standing around the airport took exception to her antics and filed the complaint that ended in an enforcement upheld on appeal.

Upheld by the ALJ, but overturned by the federal appeals court, if I remember correctly. I think they hit her with an emergency revocation, too, but she got her ticket back.
 
Upheld by the ALJ, but overturned by the federal appeals court, if I remember correctly. I think they hit her with an emergency revocation, too, but she got her ticket back.
And FWIW, it looks like she was tagged for a steep pullout and a "wig wag" on takeoff, not for a high speed low pass with smoke.
 
What's an illegal low pass??? Anyone have a reg to cite for why a pass down a runway is illegal? It definitely doesn't fit the definition of aerobatics, since there wasn't any extreme roll or pitch attitudes.

Buzz jobs are illegal since they fail the 500' person, vessel or structure distance requirement.

At CO12 you are always within 500' of houses, people, and vessels whenever you takeoff, land or go-around.

Whatever the legal justification, the FAA apparently tolerates some low passes and not others. They hand out clearances for option approaches, and the Pilot/Controller Glossary says that low approaches are one of the options, but if a pilot flies low over the full length of the runway at a much higher speed than necessary, that seems to have enforcement history. Where the dividing line is between them, who knows?

The fact that there is an ALJ hearing scheduled certainly suggests that the FAA didn't buy the biplane pilot's story about it.
 
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The fact that there is an ALJ hearing scheduled certainly suggests that the FAA didn't buy to pilot's story about it.

That, and the fact that something bad happened. The FAA seems to use 91.13 for whenever something bad happens, whether there was a specific regulation or not.

Had there been no collision, I'm pretty sure that there would be no hearing.

I lived at CO12 for 15 years and witnessed approximately a bazillion low passes, none of which resulted in an enforcement action.
 
And FWIW, it looks like she was tagged for a steep pullout and a "wig wag" on takeoff, not for a high speed low pass with smoke.

And if you do a high speed low pass, and pull up to a normal climb attitude at the far end of the runway, your going to look like you did a "steep pullout" also. Heck, you might even do a wing wag as you're rocketing down the runway. The point "the man" would make here is that if your low pass is at a speed that you couldn't possibly land out of it then it wasn't an approach to land with a go-around and any other "story" you might try to use is just going to dig your hole deeper.

IMO, she got hosed by a couple of people on the field that had no frame of reference or experience for what they were watching and made a judgement that was way out of line with any interest in aviation safety causing her no small amount of trouble. You can take away from that anything you like but my point is that it really doesn't matter what you or I think about low passes. What matters is what any one else that watches it thinks about it and their willingness to cause you trouble.
 
... the Pilot/Controller Glossary says that low approaches are one of the options, but if a pilot flies low over the full length of the runway at a much higher speed than necessary, that seems to have enforcement history. Where the dividing line is between them, who knows?

The dividing line is probably somewhere short of 180 kts with the smoke on.
 
So I've read through the whole thread and maybe I'm going to show my ignorance in this statement/question but:

Why in the holy hell are toy planes allowed to be in the same airspace as airplanes with people taking off and landing? Or if they're sharing airport airspace, why is there not a rule that the toy planes have to be on the ground when a real airplane is around?

This incident seems like something that shouldn't have happened because the environment shouldn't be created in the first place.
 
Why should little airplanes be allowed to fly over elementary schools and playgrounds? Not defending the RCers just liberty in general. The RCers were a little stupid, real pilot was a little stupid. End result not that terrible all things considered.
So I've read through the whole thread and maybe I'm going to show my ignorance in this statement/question but:

Why in the holy hell are toy planes allowed to be in the same airspace as airplanes with people taking off and landing? Or if they're sharing airport airspace, why is there not a rule that the toy planes have to be on the ground when a real airplane is around?

This incident seems like something that shouldn't have happened because the environment shouldn't be created in the first place.
 
Why should little airplanes be allowed to fly over elementary schools and playgrounds? Not defending the RCers just liberty in general. The RCers were a little stupid, real pilot was a little stupid. End result not that terrible all things considered.
No interest in curtailing liberty. To explain, we pilots have to learn and abide by many rules and regulations that are there in the interest of safety, even when the actual risk exposures mitigated by some of the rules are minuscule. Having just gained my license last year the effort expended to learn and understand those rules and regs is fresh on my mind; learning that there's not a limitation on RC aircraft operating in airport airspace is one of those, "wait...they can do what?!" things.
 
So let this be another lesson- all those rules you learned won't keep you safe from your own or others stupidity.
 
So I've read through the whole thread and maybe I'm going to show my ignorance in this statement/question but:

Why in the holy hell are toy planes allowed to be in the same airspace as airplanes with people taking off and landing? Or if they're sharing airport airspace, why is there not a rule that the toy planes have to be on the ground when a real airplane is around?

This incident seems like something that shouldn't have happened because the environment shouldn't be created in the first place.

http://www.michiganjets.com/

Looks like they will be using 17/35

They have been doing this for years and years. But I have never attended.
 
FYI,
NTSB released their probable cause on this. avweb story about it here

from the report:
NTSB said:
During a local fly-in event, a radio controlled airplane collided with a bi-plane while the bi-plane was performing a go-around. The radio controlled airplane was performing a hover maneuver just prior to the collision and initiated an escape maneuver which placed the radio controlled airplane right into the flight path of the bi-plane. The bi-plane sustained substantial damage, but was able to land without further incident. The radio controlled airplane was destroyed. Prior to the event, the event coordinator briefed the participants that they were to operate their radio controlled airplanes to the east of the runway, and not directly in the runway environment. While the event coordinator was monitoring the radio for traffic, it was not clearly communicated who, if anyone, was providing spotter duties for the radio controlled airplane operator prior to the collision.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
The radio-controlled airplane operators decision to maneuver his airplane outside of the designated operating area, resulting in a collision with a bi-plane. Contributing to the accident was the lack of a formally designated spotter.
 
It's a minor detail, but the guy using the radio was also violating FCC law... I personally think both parties were to blame, especially with the smoke, but the smoke becomes irrelevant, because in reality, the pilot should have had the full use of the entire length of the runway anyhow, and if he had needed to go around, the RC shouldn't have been there.

Ryan
 
The NTSB decided to go with the obvious... the RC guy shouldn't have been standing/flying in the middle of a runway.

But... that whole thing was a fustercluck.
 
And whoever that jerrysu29 is that claims to be a private pilot is either a liar or a moron.
 
Upheld by the ALJ, but overturned by the federal appeals court, if I remember correctly. I think they hit her with an emergency revocation, too, but she got her ticket back.

She has had her license pulled more than once.
 
What a cluster. First time I heard about this, but again, as an R/C heli pilot as well...... .NEVER fly near an airport.
 
And whoever that jerrysu29 is that claims to be a private pilot is either a liar or a moron.

I'm going To go with Moron, just because hi's Use of Capitals and Apostrophes in the Wrong Places bug me.

She has had her license pulled more than once.

I did not know that. I was under the impression that she was currently flying and performing - is that true?
 
According to the WSJ today, the FAA is considering bringing model aircraft under the UAV rules that they're considering. That will effectively ban some of the more capable model aircraft.

Article link - subscription may be required

After leaving this pastime alone for years, the Federal Aviation Administration is considering new regulations that could set strict limits on recreational model planes.
.........
Unexpectedly, some on the panel in 2009 recommended that the FAA extend drone rules to model airplanes—over the objections of a model-plane representative in the group.
...........
"We're being thrown in with the professional drone crowd and being regulated for what appears to me to be no good reason," said Dennis Crooks, a retired farm manager from Rockville, Ind. He griped that his C-123 Provider, a four-engine cargo plane model that weighs 97 pounds, might be relegated to a museum piece.

"It puts all of this out of business," said Bob Violett, whose Winter Springs, Fla., company, BVM Jets, makes and distributes pricey model kits and engines, of the potential regulations.
 
And whoever that jerrysu29 is that claims to be a private pilot is either a liar or a moron.

I agree with you on this. Anyone with that big a gap in their FAR knowledge...

Look it up first if you're not sure. Why risk sounding like an idiot?
 
I agree with you on this. Anyone with that big a gap in their FAR knowledge...

Look it up first if you're not sure. Why risk sounding like an idiot?


I was taught early in my training, "don't think you know the answer, know the answer, look it up".

He argued the uncontrolled airspace comms point of view multiple times.
 
What a cluster. First time I heard about this, but again, as an R/C heli pilot as well...... .NEVER fly near an airport.
I've flown my R/C heli at the airport (near my hangar) many times but never beyond the hangar alley or above the top of the hangars.
 
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