Full Approach?

Captain

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Final Approach
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Okay, here's an easy one (I think)

Going to Providenciales (MBPV) and shooting the RNAV 10. We're non-radar and cleared by approach direct to BENOS and cleared for the approach. It's about a 150 degree track to BENOS. My question is this...do you do the procedure turn or not?

We did not but I did quarry approach to see what he wanted.
 
Can you post an approach chart? This is outside of US, so I can't lookup a version of the approach chart. Normally when the procedure is structured using a T design, the PT is not normally required if you use one of the two base entry IAF locations to join the approach (right base leg IAF, left base leg IAF) as they typically indicate NoPT for the leg that joins at the center straight in IAF. The hold in lieu of a PT (HILPT) is normally located at the center straight in entry and unless there is a TAA indicated, if you are cleared direct to the center IAF with the hold, the hold is normally required, but rarely needed unless your course to it requires more than a 90 degree turn to the final approach course. Here in the US, controllers are supposed to clear you "Straight In" if they don't want you to fly the HILPT, but controllers often do not follow this procedure and it is best to ask their intentions. If there is a TAA shown on the chart, it is considered as a giant feeder route and any segment or sub segment can be designated as NOPT.
 
EDIT: Found the plate, if you are on a 150 heading inbound I would think you could just join the arc per the note without the PT.
 
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Hang on...

All I have access to is a Jepps though.
 
Outside the US, very little is standard when it comes to these procedures. ICAO/PAN OPS may specify something different than the US but I haven't found anything.

I would just ask approach if they need us to do a turn in the hold or not.
 
Here's the IAP. There is no arc. And I did ask approach, they said go straight in so we did.

photo.PNG



If this were a US approach what would you do? Notice the feeder routes don't say 'NoPT'. The way I read this is if you're cleared direct BENOS and cleared for the approach you're expected to do the PT. What say you?
 
Captain said:
If this were a US approach what would you do? Notice the feeder routes don't say 'NoPT'. The way I read this is if you're cleared direct BENOS and cleared for the approach you're expected to do the PT. What say you?
Click to expand...

If this was a US approach, TERPS would list the feeder routes as "NoPT" more than likely. As published, I would expect to do the HILPT if cleared direct BENOS and confirm with approach prior to getting there.

I had the same issue shooting the RNAV Y 28 at HTO last year, NY Approach wanted me to go straight in. They sounded annoyed when I asked if they wanted me to do a turn in the hold at MATHW but I'd rather ask then get yelled after entering the HILPT.
 
Also, what is that shading on the plan view? 640' to EMUSO and 380' to the runway...

The whole thing is over the ocean so it ain't obstacle clearance of some sort. MRA maybe? Never saw that before either.
 
Captain said:
Also, what is that shading on the plan view? 640' to EMUSO and 380' to the runway...

The whole thing is over the ocean so it ain't obstacle clearance of some sort. MRA maybe? Never saw that before either.
Click to expand...

Shading on the profile view indicates the sector Minimum Altitudes (SMA).

From Jepp intro manual:

They are represented by a shaded rectangle bordered by the two defining
fixes. The minimum altitude is shown along the top edge of the sector.

SEGMENT MINIMUM ALTITUDE (SMA), or SEGMENT
MINIMUM SAFE ALTITUDE (SMSA) — An
altitude that provides minimum obstacle clearance in
each segment of a non-precision approach. Segment
minimum (safe) altitudes can be considered “do not
descend below” altitudes and can be lower than procedure
altitudes which are specifically developed to
facilitate a constant rate or stabilized descent.
Click to expand...
 
Captain said:
If this were a US approach what would you do? Notice the feeder routes don't say 'NoPT'. The way I read this is if you're cleared direct BENOS and cleared for the approach you're expected to do the PT. What say you?
Click to expand...
First, I see no 'feeder routes'. Nor do I see any 'procedure turn'. Nor a 'HILPT'. Although it looks like a TAA, I see no 'TAA circle'--it's an MSA. If you wanted to do a HILPT at the MAP fix (BENOS), and if you arrived there at the minimum segment altitude of the initial approach segment--you'd have to climb to the MHA first (EDIT: 2000').

So, I'd ask too, but I'd expect you're intended to fly straight in (EDIT: at 1700').

dtuuri
 
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Captain said:
Okay, here's an easy one (I think)

Going to Providenciales (MBPV) and shooting the RNAV 10. We're non-radar and cleared by approach direct to BENOS and cleared for the approach. It's about a 150 degree track to BENOS. My question is this...do you do the procedure turn or not?

We did not but I did quarry approach to see what he wanted.
Click to expand...
You did the right thing. By the US book, without the "cleared straight in," you'd have to do the course reversal. I'd have to look at the T&C book to know what their rules are. But either way, asking before doing is always a correct procedure.
 
Captain said:
Okay, here's an easy one (I think)

Going to Providenciales (MBPV) and shooting the RNAV 10. We're non-radar and cleared by approach direct to BENOS and cleared for the approach. It's about a 150 degree track to BENOS. My question is this...do you do the procedure turn or not?

We did not but I did quarry approach to see what he wanted.
Click to expand...

The whole point of having the 'T' shaped GPS approaches is not having to fly procedure turns. If you are approaching from the "bottom" of the T (track 193 clockwise to 013), you would get cleared to ADVIL or DAPOR first, while anything else would go straight to BENOS without a PT.

That said the US plates are usually quite explicit about PT's, see e.g. RNAV (GPS) 24 at KFZY.
 
sballmer said:
The whole point of having the 'T' shaped GPS approaches is not having to fly procedure turns. If you are approaching from the "bottom" of the T (track 193 clockwise to 013), you would get cleared to ADVIL or DAPOR first, while anything else would go straight to BENOS without a PT.
Click to expand...
This isn't a TAA chart, and there are no indications on the chart that is what is expected. I don't know if the T&C rules are the same as ours, but here, going straight in on this chart without being cleared straight in is not authorized. See the March 2010 issue of ASRS Callback for how that causes big problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
You did the right thing. By the US book, without the "cleared straight in," you'd have to do the course reversal. I'd have to look at the T&C book to know what their rules are. But either way, asking before doing is always a correct procedure.
Click to expand...

Is that because we weren't on a feeder route or because the feeder routes do NOT say NoPT?

Usually on US charts they draw the T and the feeders say NoPT and they put little quarter arc saying NoPT if arriving via that zone. If there are no little arcs and I'm direct the center of the T (BENOS here) can I fire straight in if the feeders say NoPT?
 
First note the MSA: 1300'. Then note the altitudes between ADVIL and BENOS, and between DAPOR and BENOS. Also 1300'.

There are no feeder routes in the procedure. ADVIL is an IAF, as is DAPOR. BENOS is also an IAF. A feeder route carries one from the enroute structure to the IAF, but the routes ADVIL-BENOS and DAPOR-BENOS are not feeder routes. They begin at their respective IAF.

One is clearly not expected to cross ADVIL at 1,300', climb up to 2000' at BENOS, fly the missed approach depicted hold and course reversal at BENOS, then descend down to 1,700' from BENOS to EMUSO. That's just ridiculous.

If you're making the transition from the enroute structure direct to BENOS, you'll likely be expected to arrive and descend to 2000 in the depicted hold, before continuing inbound, and you'll be expected to do no more than one turn in that race track unless you advise you need to do otherwise. Therefore, using BENOS, you'll do 2,000 on the procedure track, then descend to 1,700' on the way to EMUSO.

If you're coming from ADVIL or DAPOR, however, you're already established on the procedure. You do not need to fly to BENOS and execute a procedure turn. BENOS is not a fly-over waypoint. Once you're established ADVIL-BENOS, you're established on the procedure, and the same is true if you're coming from DAPOR.

Again, in either of those two cases, you don't cross the IAF at 1,300' only to climb to 2000 at BENOS, then descend to 1700' at EMUSO. If you're flying LNAV only, then you can descend to 1,400 inbound from ADVIL or DAPOR

BENOS at 2000 is the IAF for the VNAV procedure (if you intend to fly LNAV/VNAV). If you intend to only fly LNAV, you don't need to worry about 2000 altitude or the mandatory 1700' altitude. the 1700' altitude only applies to those flyin the VNAV profile.
 
Dave pointed out that the hold is not a HILPT for this approach. If it were, it would use the bold line thickness shown in the Jeppesen chart legend which is used if the hold is mandatory, so the hold is only intended for the missed approach.
 
Yeah, just noticed that myself. So in hind sight no querry was needed.
 
Captain said:
Yeah, just noticed that myself. So in hind sight no querry was needed.
Click to expand...
I would still ask because the TAA circle is missing (MSA instead) and it's the TAA concept that is supposed to allow seamless, efficient flow along the approach. Those initial segments are notated with 'NoPT', but this isn't. So, I'd wonder if the holding pattern is simply printed in the wrong font weight, indicating a missed approach hold rather than a HILPT. Then there's the lower MEA of the initial legs being below the MHA (minimum holding altitude) as well as below the FAF minimum crossing altitude.

So, enough there doesn't add up to keep me confused, which doesn't take a lot I admit, and since it costs nothing to ask--I would. And I wouldn't sound 'embarassed' for asking either. I'd probably sound annoyed that the chart raises unanswered questions and I have more important things to be concerned with right then.

dtuuri
 
I dont't know what is the big fuss about this approach, after all it never gets IMC at MBPV. The main reason for the approach existence is because they have airliners going into MBPV. All the times I have overflown MBPV I was able to see the airport clearly from above 15,000ft. Like in any non-radar environment you should report when passing the waypoints on the approach to insure proper separation.

José
 
Captain said:
Okay, here's an easy one (I think)

Going to Providenciales (MBPV) and shooting the RNAV 10. We're non-radar and cleared by approach direct to BENOS and cleared for the approach. It's about a 150 degree track to BENOS. My question is this...do you do the procedure turn or not?

We did not but I did quarry approach to see what he wanted.
Click to expand...

RNAV IAPs outside the US are flown the same as they are here. Either one of the base leg IAFs is implied NoPT. The clearance you received required the HILPT so far as PANS-OPS criteria are concerned.

Having said that RNAV is corrupting ATC in other countries just like it is here. If the weather was good I would cancel and just go straight-in. If the weather were IMC I would insist on a clearance to either ADVIL or DAPOR, as appropriate for my route of flight.

Attached Is a VOR IAP to the same runway. The ICAO rules for this more typical IAP are quite specific. Let's say you were cleared direct to the VOR via the 250 radial (070 track inbound) and your last assigned altitude was 5,000. At 20 DME you are simply cleared for the VOR X Runway 10. How would you fly the IAP?
 

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Weather was low enough to need the IAP the day in question. I think it's pretty clear now the depicted is not a PT and is only associated with the missed.
 
Captain said:
Weather was low enough to need the IAP the day in question. I think it's pretty clear now the depicted is not a PT and is only associated with the missed.
Click to expand...

Correct. I missed that.
 
aterpster said:
As Jepp say, minimum segment altitude.
Click to expand...

Two different jeppesen intro documents and two different names. APPROACH-7 of the intro pages dated 2 Mar 2012 calls it a "sector minimum altitude" yet the introduction chart glossary dated 27 Jul 07 calls it a "segment minimum altitude." I think the "sector" name is a typo because it is clearly a minimum segment altitude.
 
Captain said:
Is that because we weren't on a feeder route or because the feeder routes do NOT say NoPT?
Click to expand...
Yes. If you weren't on the feeder route, then you'd have to fly the HPILPT because it's not a TAA procedure, and it wouldn't matter what the feeder routes said because you're not on them. If you were on one of the feeder routes, then you'd have to fly the HPILPT because they don't say NoPT.

Usually on US charts they draw the T and the feeders say NoPT and they put little quarter arc saying NoPT if arriving via that zone.
Click to expand...
Those are TAA procedures described in AIM Section 5-4-5d.

If there are no little arcs and I'm direct the center of the T (BENOS here) can I fire straight in if the feeders say NoPT?
Click to expand...
Only if you're on the feeder route that says NoPT, because those are not TAA procedures.

Please, Captain -- read the March 2010 ASRS Callback.
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/cb/cb_363.pdf

Note: All my comments are based on US rules. T&C rules may be different, so you'd have to check the local procedures to be sure what you can/can't do there using the chart under discussion.

Note 2: As pointed out above, there is no course reversal on this approach. So, what I said in this post is based on the false impression that there is, and it would apply only if there were a course reversal at BENOS rather than just a missed approach hold.
 
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DouglasBader said:
If you're coming from ADVIL or DAPOR, however, you're already established on the procedure. You do not need to fly to BENOS and execute a procedure turn. BENOS is not a fly-over waypoint. Once you're established ADVIL-BENOS, you're established on the procedure, and the same is true if you're coming from DAPOR.
Click to expand...
As noted above by Doug, there is no course reversal on this approach. As such, any discussion about executing a reversal at BENOS is moot.
 
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John Collins said:
Dave pointed out that the hold is not a HILPT for this approach. If it were, it would use the bold line thickness shown in the Jeppesen chart legend which is used if the hold is mandatory, so the hold is only intended for the missed approach.
Click to expand...
Dave's right. And that changes everything.
 
Ron Levy said:
As noted above by Doug, there is no course reversal on this approach. As such, any discussion about executing a reversal at BENOS is moot.
Click to expand...

But, it does emphasize that a non-radar clearance should be to either of the base leg IAFs. A clearance direct to BENOS is problematic, particularly at angles in the wrong direction.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only if you're on the feeder route that says NoPT, because those are not TAA procedures.
Click to expand...

I've never seen the term NoPT on a chart outside of the U.S. (or other FAA jurisdictions).
 
aterpster said:
Attached Is a VOR IAP to the same runway. The ICAO rules for this more typical IAP are quite specific. Let's say you were cleared direct to the VOR via the 250 radial (070 track inbound) and your last assigned altitude was 5,000. At 20 DME you are simply cleared for the VOR X Runway 10. How would you fly the IAP?
Click to expand...

No one bit on this one. :)

It was misunderstood by a major international airline who had always flown into radar terminal areas in Europe until they started flying into these little non-radar island.
 
aterpster said:
But, it does emphasize that a non-radar clearance should be to either of the base leg IAFs. A clearance direct to BENOS is problematic, particularly at angles in the wrong direction.
Click to expand...
Affirmative! In the US, controllers cannot send you direct-IF outside radar coverage.
 
Ron Levy said:
Affirmative! In the US, controllers cannot send you direct-IF outside radar coverage.
Click to expand...

But, under PANS-OPS the MSA or MSA Sectors are operational altitudes.

Also, I suspect under PANS-OPS rules the holding pattern at BENOS is fair game for a course reversal as well as the missed approach.

Any PANS-OPS experts here?
 
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