FSS - "No Adverse Conditions" and TFRs

[TedR3]

Now that I've got my certificate and there's no CFI along any more, I've vowed to call FSS no more than 1/2 hour before every flight to get a briefing.

My dealings with FSS have been less than great. Most of the time the briefer acts like he is doing me a favor by taking my call.

At the end of the briefing, I always ask if there are any TFRs that might impact my flight. Sometime they just say "no" other times they cop an attitude and say "I told you no adverse conditions".

So what gives? Can I rely on "no adverse conditions" to mean no TFRs or should I keep asking?

I can't find anything official that says "no adverse conditions" = No TFRs.

Also, is there a good "user's guide" anywhere online for FSS? When calling for a briefing, it seems like I'm always giving them too much or too little information, too slow or too fast. I can't seem to find any official guide on how to best interact with them.

 

[jesse]

Now that I've got my certificate and there's no CFI along any more, I've vowed to call FSS no more than 1/2 hour before every flight to get a briefing.

My dealings with FSS have been less than great. Most of the time the briefer acts like he is doing me a favor by taking my call.

At the end of the briefing, I always ask if there are any TFRs that might impact my flight. Sometime they just say "no" other times they cop an attitude and say "I told you no adverse conditions".

So what gives? Can I rely on "no adverse conditions" to mean no TFRs or should I keep asking?

I can't find anything official that says "no adverse conditions" = No TFRs.

Also, is there a good "user's guide" anywhere online for FSS? When calling for a briefing, it seems like I'm always giving them too much or too little information, too slow or too fast. I can't seem to find any official guide on how to best interact with them.

I always make it very clear that there are no TFRs and could careless if they don't want to say those words.

 

[bbchien]

The only thing that causes me to call FSS any longer is the last minute TFR update, or departure from east-overshoe (no Internet) Colorado, and 1G or ZeroG cellphone connections. There are so many superior products available on line.

And I call 'em every time.

 

[steingar]

I also make certain the words "no TFR's" are clearly vocalized by the briefer. It's my six, not his. True story. Coming back from Oshkosh one year I let my buddy do the flying. I asked him to get a briefing before departure, which he failed to do. Fortunately, we had the new GPS with XM. There were big red circles over Chicago. He had no clue what they were. Had it not been for the XM (which I no longer have) we'd have blundered right into them.

 

[poadeleted20]

At the end of the briefing, I always ask if there are any TFRs that might impact my flight. Sometime they just say "no" other times they cop an attitude and say "I told you no adverse conditions".

Officially, "no adverse conditions" refers only to weather. TFR's are NOTAMs, and that's a separate part of the briefing.

So what gives? Can I rely on "no adverse conditions" to mean no TFRs or should I keep asking?

You keep asking. If a briefer tells you that again, file a complaint with LockMart, because it is not "by the book."

I can't find anything official that says "no adverse conditions" = No TFRs.

That's because it isn't there.

 

[Jeanie]

So, the FAA.gov TFR info isn't enough to use, it's best to get an abbreviated briefing right before take off?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

And, you probably already know, but "no TFRs" does not mean "no TFRs" - FSS will not tell you about stadium TFRs

 

[markb5900]

As for what/how to give them information, this is how I was taught and has always worked well.
Type of Briefing you want (standard etc..)
Tail Number or Name
Type of Aircraft (PA-28, Cessna 172 etc..)
Origin Airport
Destination Airport
Time of Take off or departing in xxx hours or minutes.
How the flight is conducted, VFR or IFR

Hope that helps a little

 

[poadeleted20]

BTW, the official source for this is FAA Order 7110.10. See Section 3−2−1. CONDUCT OF STANDARD BRIEFING:

1. Adverse Conditions. Include this element when meteorological or aeronautical conditions are reported or forecast that might influence the pilot to alter the proposed flight. Emphasize conditions that are particularly significant, such as low level wind shear, thunderstorms, reported icing, frontal zones along the route of flight, airport/runway closure NOTAMs, air traffic delays, etc. Weather advisories (WS, WA, WST, CWA, and AWW) must be given by stating the type of advisory followed by the pertinent information.

The only NOTAMs specifically listed are airport/runway closure, with no mention of TFR's or other FDC NOTAMs. Given the level of interest, and the consequences, I ain't takin' "No adverse conditions" to mean there are no TFR's, and if the briefer gets snippy, I'll just file a report on the FAA Safety Hotline (1-866-TELL-FAA).

 

[poadeleted20]

So, the FAA.gov TFR info isn't enough to use, it's best to get an abbreviated briefing right before take off?

"Update," not "abbreviated." Abbreviated is for long-range outlook, say, the evening before, and may not include what you need.

 

[Jeanie]

"Update," not "abbreviated." Abbreviated is for long-range outlook, say, the evening before, and may not include what you need.

~~~~. Thought that was just called an outlook briefing. Either way.. Usually just look online but I guess it's better to get your voice recorded nowadays.

 

[Matthew]

I've had grumpy briefers before - I remember one who blew through the briefing as fast as he could. At the end, I asked specifically about TFRs and he shot back with something like "I already covered that earlier in the briefing", so I said "OK, then 'say again' TFRs" until he finally re-read the part that said "No TFRs".

Sometimes they are just having a bad day and forget to follow the script.

 

[brcase]

I usually just ask for an abbreviated breifing for Notams and TFR's. 98 times out of 100 I have already determined the weather isn't going to be an issue.

The usually are pretty good about doing this although will sometimes give me the weather information anyway. I understand they are required to give some items.

Brian

 

[poadeleted20]

~~~~. Thought that was just called an outlook briefing. Either way.. Usually just look online but I guess it's better to get your voice recorded nowadays.

If you get your briefing from a QICP provider like DUATS, and log in, it's fully documented for these purposes, and personally, I think it's more comprehensive.

 

[Jeanie]

And they aren't the ones who will get intercepted and detained... So they can just get a grip and be nice... After all, there they sit and they will either be on the phone with me or another pilot.
I've only had one be grumpy and it was to a student... I fixed it with a "very nice" couple of sentences to the briefer

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I use Fltplan.com and at the end they will e-mail me the weather so there's a record of it.
I always shake my head when I go to the FAA TFR site and see the disclaimer. It's ridiculous: if the information isn't current, it should be. I also have a 496 with XM in the plane and mostly file IFR if going any distance.

They've put a real burden on us pilots and you can bet you will have to prove you did all you could if you bust one, even if they didn't properly brief or post it.

Of course, there are plenty of folks that don't take reasonable measures to brief and cause a lot of issues.

Best,

Dave

 

[HPNPilot1200]

My experience with FSS has been varied but more toward negative like yours (briefer doing you a favor).

I call to get the "no TFRs for your route of flight" recorded and that's it. Fltplan.com for everything else. The last time I called for a standard briefing for a flight to Nantucket the briefer asked me "where the heck A-C-K is." Ummm, on second thought hold the standard briefing. I'll take an abbreviated briefing for TFRs while I review the weather on fltplan.com.

 

[BillTIZ]

If you get your briefing from a QICP provider like DUATS, and log in, it's fully documented for these purposes, and personally, I think it's more comprehensive.

For years I used online self briefing systems, mostly DTC DUATS. I would copy the text report to MS Word and save the file by date on my computer and print only a few of the 20+ pages I needed. I would also file by DUATS online.

Now I have the iPad DUATS App and can archive the report in the iPad and take it with me, it's also nice that they have links within the report to the different sections.

TFR Stadium NOTAMS, FSS has no clue. But I'm sure the SUPER Bowl will be highlighted.

 

[p1l0t]

I file IFR everytime >50nm, its not fool proof but ATC won't try to vector you into a TFR. They don't try to make these things a secret either, if you get a good briefing, talk to ATC, listen to the ATIS 20nm out (Yes, Presidential is 30nm) your not going fly into one. I get an email from both AOPA and the FAA everytime OB1 moves..

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[Mike I]

TFR Stadium NOTAMS, FSS has no clue. But I'm sure the SUPER Bowl will be highlighted.

Already listed: http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_2_5007.html
"...must coordinate with the FAA at the Super Bowl Air Joint Operations Center (JOC) prior to their departure at 317-327-2510... "

Just what exactly is a Super Bowl Air Joint Operations Center? And can they even call it that, given "Super Bowl" is trademarked?

 

[BillTIZ]

I file IFR everytime >50nm, its not fool proof but ATC won't try to vector you into a TFR. They don't try to make these things a secret either, if you get a good briefing, talk to ATC, listen to the ATIS 20nm out (Yes, Presidential is 30nm) your not going fly into one. I get an email from both AOPA and the FAA everytime OB1 moves..

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Prez TFR was 35nm Radius today in LAS!

 

[p1l0t]

Prez TFR was 35nm Radius today in LAS!

That's only because he took the whole Class B. Can't [shouldn't] go in there without a clearance from ATC anyway.

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[gprellwitz]

So, the FAA.gov TFR info isn't enough to use, it's best to get an abbreviated briefing right before take off?

As Dave alluded to after your post, the tfr.faa.gov website is not deemed sufficient. The following disclaimer is at the bottom:

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

 

[gprellwitz]

"Update," not "abbreviated." Abbreviated is for long-range outlook, say, the evening before, and may not include what you need.

Actually, she was correct, she wanted an Abbreviated briefing. From Flight Service ORDER JO 7110.10U

3-1-7. TYPE OF BRIEFING TO BE CONDUCTED
Provide the pilot with the type of briefing requested; i.e., standard, abbreviated, or outlook. When it is not clear initially which type briefing is desired, provide the first one or two items requested, and then ascertain if the pilot would like a standard briefing. If a standard briefing is requested, conduct the briefing in accordance with para 3-2-1. If the pilot does not desire a standard briefing, provide either an abbreviated briefing in accordance with para 3-2-2, or an outlook briefing, in accordance with para 3-2-3.

(And, as you're aware, similar info is in the AIM. This just happened to come up first on a Google search.)

 

[gprellwitz]

If you get your briefing from a QICP provider like DUATS, and log in, it's fully documented for these purposes, and personally, I think it's more comprehensive.

I agree that DUATS (or DUAT) would qualify, and they are QICP providers.

However, I don't think that QICP certification is sufficient unto itself to meet the burden of a complete briefing, because there are "[t]hree standards [that] must be met in order to receive QICP approval and status: network infrastructure reliability, accessissibility, and security. The FAA grants QICP approval based on system integrity and transmission of data (e.g. accuracy, timeliness) only, not the quality of a vendor's weather content and/or data." I don't believe that AWS has NOTAM information on it, including TFRs. If it's there, I would be interested in knowing that. And AWS is QICP certified:

Aviation Weather Center's (AWC) Consolidated Aviation Web Services (CAWS) includes ADDS.aviationweather.gov and AviationWeather.gov web sites. The AWC serves the General Aviation (GA) community. Currently, GA and public access to AWC's aviation weather information over the Public Internet is not regulated. However, particular aviation users are restricted by FAA regulation from using ADDS.aviationweather.gov and AviationWeather.gov web sites. Volume 3 chapter 7 section 3 paragraph 1441 of the Air Transportation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8900.1 states that if a part 121 or 135 operator obtains aviation weather or notices to airmen (NOTAM) data via the Public Internet, the operator must use an approved FAA Qualified Internet Communication Provider (QICP).
AWC's web sites now conform to the FAA's QICP standards described in FAA Advisory Circular AC 00-62 for reliability, accessibility, and security of internet communications of aviation weather and NOTAMs. This AC is not mandatory and does not constitute a regulation; however, part 121 and 135 operators are not authorized to obtain aviation weather information from AWC web sites without this designation. With QICP certification, AWC's aviation weather products will be authorized by the FAA for the commercial aviation community over the internet.

You can probably point to something that says that DUAT and DUATS are considered an official briefing, comparable to what can be obtained from a briefer. I recall seeing something like that during training, but can't remember where right now.

 

[denverpilot]

Heck even the FAA doesn't trust themselves. ADS-B FIS-B weather data isn't considered to be an official FAA weather source.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree that DUATS (or DUAT) would qualify, and they are QICP providers.

However, I don't think that QICP certification is sufficient unto itself to meet the burden of a complete briefing,

Correct, but the question was whether it would provide a documented record of the briefing equivalent to the tape of a telephonic briefing, and the answer to that is most definitely "yes" if you log in on a QICP source. Whether the briefing is sufficient or not is another story entirely, just as a telephonic briefing may not be sufficient if you don't get a full standard briefing or hang up in the middle or something like that.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Ted:

I use these for my briefings. I probably have an extra pad of them at home if you want them. They work well for me as I can outline my items in advance and then just read thru the top section to get the briefing stuff to the FSS guy, and then each section below is in the order they state everything back to you. A nice map on the back if you wanted to draw any weather lines or frontal boundaries along your route. (worked well for me going to Windwood fly-ins).

Here is a good page about the breifing too, which may clarifiy some terms or add some backup to things stated above.

 

[p1l0t]

QICP

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