Frontier Pilots Ready To Walk

Even though they don’t belong to the union, the union still would have to represent those non members, IOW defend them with union assets. They (non members) also reap the benefits of a union negotiated contract, all of it. So that’s why they pay. They can still join if they desired to.
 
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Zeldman said:
They did not join, they get NO union benefits, but still are required to pay union dues to remain employed.
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That doesn't seem right. That isn't how it works in the airline industry.

One friend is a nurse. She is one of the head nurses, don't remember her title. She is in charge when on duty. She is the only one not union. She quit the union several years ago when they were told to go on strike.
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Sorry to be blunt, but in the eyes of the rest of the union employees that went on strike, that makes her a scab. She was within her rights to do so, but there are consequences.

Why is it fair to be able to collect dues from non union members and not give them the benefits.?? Still extortion.
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Well, that doesn't seem fair to me. But I am not in that industry.

But still, right to work means not having to be forced to be union.
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She's NOT being forced to be union. But there are consequences in that situation.
 
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Half Fast said:
Maybe I don't understand. Are they slaves or free people? Do their bosses have photos of them being intimate with sheep?

There are other industries and other careers. We all make our own choices about how we spend our lives. If we're unhappy and keep doing what makes us unhappy, shame on us.
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Do you work in a profession where your next employer is required to background check you with your current employer? Rather common in the transportation industry to screw people trying to find a new job or quit.
 
Half Fast said:
:yeahthat:

Strikes are for employees who want to quit but are too lazy or incompetent to find another job.
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yea & a buncha them lazy incompetents out there, all dying to quit, but ohh so sad, stuck & might as well be slaves or sheep
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.t03.htm

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.hTm

& here i thought it was all about hard earned rights, choices & options, much of it in blood, that others could only dream of,

as far as i'm concerned, airline pilots are among the cream of the crop
 
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When unions first came about, there was no OSHA, there were no labor laws, there were effectively no employment rules except if you walk out of one place, your former employer could black ball you.

Times have changed. Now, depending on where you sit, the industry and even the specific situation determines if the union is good or bad.

For pilots, the critique I have always had as an outsider is that seniority based on hire date is bad for the pilot. For the airline, it makes the cost of leaving higher so they will never object, it gives them greater leverage. For the pilots, there are many other metrics which could be substituted that give you more freedom to move between airlines.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Sorry to be blunt, but in the eyes of the rest of the union employees that went on strike, that makes her a scab
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Thanks, I was not sure of the meaning. I always thought a scab was someone that depended on someone else to take care of them, lead their lives for them for them. You know, like when you were a kid and skinned your knee and mom took care of you and made it better.

She was forced to go on strike as well, and missed several weeks of paychecks. All directed by someone else that did not miss a paycheck.

I did call her and make sure I understood her. She told me that she started as a federal employee when Bush II was in office, it was not a requirement to pay union her money. Then when BHO came in office, it became a requirement to remain employed. She works at the Indian Hospital, and the Navajo tribe is a sovereign nation so that may have something to do with it. She doesn't know and I don't know either.

As tspear mentioned, there was once no OSHA, no labor laws, etc. Workers at the Ford Assembly plant were not allowed bathroom breaks or even allowed to smile while working. Workers were usually subjected to poor and sometimes dangerous working conditions, low wages, and unreasonably long hours. Unions came along and changed that. Unions had their time, no doubt.

Anyway, my thinking is anyone that works for someone else is someone that has given up. Once I realized that working for someone else meant I was doing the work so someone else earns lots of money, I went on my own. I say that even as my dad worked for TAMU for 39 years and did Ok. He had military retirement, teachers retirement, state retirement and his own private retirement. But that still won't equal the retirement I built for myself.
 
Zeldman said:
Anyway, my thinking is anyone that works for someone else is someone that has given up.
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It's not about giving up. Don't get me wrong - I respect anyone that goes out on their own and builds it themselves. But I've just never been cut from that entrepreneurial cloth. I don't live for the job, but for the days off, so I see it as merely an equation of The Man expects me to work X number of days, and in return I get X number of dollars every two weeks.

I'm pretty sure that I'm too damned lazy to build the kind of company that'd pay me what I'm making now, so I'm content with the worker bee thing.
 
kayoh190 said:
It's not about giving up. Don't get me wrong - I respect anyone that goes out on their own and builds it themselves. But I've just never been cut from that entrepreneurial cloth. I don't live for the job, but for the days off, so I see it as merely an equation of The Man expects me to work X number of days, and in return I get X number of dollars every two weeks.

I'm pretty sure that I'm too damned lazy to build the kind of company that'd pay me what I'm making now, so I'm content with the worker bee thing.
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Fair enough, no problem there.

I don't expect everyone to quit a job to go work for themselves. I should have, but I didn't make it clear that I would be the one giving up to work for someone else. Which I have done a few times for summer fun, certainly not for the money.

I value days off myself.
 
no doubt about it, those 24hr/7day job schedule/routines are no picnic, as a fundamental, that can include routine days or more away at a time, not to mention consequences to family life

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-n...ilots-for-last-year-s-near-disaster-1.4838586
Both pilots of the Air Canada Airbus A320 were experienced. The captain, who was flying the plane, had more than 20,000 hours of flying time, and the co-pilot had about 10,000 hours.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-pilot-fatigue-regulations-1.4673642
'Notwithstanding my great respect for NASA, we make our own decisions' - Marc Garneau
<snip>
Being tired behind the controls of an aircraft is the number one safety concern pilots say they face on the job.
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JD318 said:
Alimony normally ends with the death of either the recipient or the payor. Hmmm.o_O
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In this case, upon either of the two you mention, Cohabitation or marriage of the recipient, or 5 years... beginning in December 2013... we're both still alive (so far) and I've been unable to prove cohabitation, so.... December 2018 it is!!!
 
My Frontier flight round trip through two different cities totals $270. Includes the bundle and perks (one carry on, one checked, seat assignment and priority boarding). The same perks flying with American Airlines would cost me $615. That's a huge incentive to use Frontier, but I don't see how they can afford to fly the planes and pay the pilots with that kind of money. I'm following this thread with interest, I can see the pilots side. But I hope they don't strike til after my October trip.
 
Greg Bockelman said: ↑
Sorry to be blunt, but in the eyes of the rest of the union employees that went on strike, that makes her a scab
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the scab thing doesn't mean much to lotsa folks these days, if they ever even heard how it applies to labor issues,

for many, just something else to mock & or ridicule,

a huge issue for unions is the entrenched, carryover politics/lefty junk, tho i'm not familiar with alpa

http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events...canada-flight-time-duty-time-regulations-ntsb

no doubt about this
ALPA maintains that safety risks will unnecessarily continue for those who work in the industry and for those who travel by air until adequate rules are finalized.
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or
Airline pilots, crews, and passengers deserve to work and travel in the safest environment possible, which is, in part, accomplished by implementing rules that are science-based, supported by data, and recognize safety as the priority. Therefore, we ask that the government adopt the proposed science-based
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rather than having to ask or educate, you'd think it was already established if not a mandate
 
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Palmpilot said:
I don't know what airline collective bargaining agreements are like, but in the orchestra ones that I worked under, there was no prohibition on paying individual employees more than the contract required.
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AFM isn't nearly as strong as ALPA...but it is stronger than AGMA...
 
http://www.alpa.org/about-alpa/our-history
In the 2010s ALPA line pilots, supported by professional staff in the Engineering & Air Safety, Communications, Government Affairs, and Legal Departments, continue to press for safety and security improvements across a broad range of issues, from transport of dangerous goods (especially lithium batteries) to laser attacks on airline cockpits to continued implementation of programs vital to modernizing the Canadian and U.S. air transportation systems. Recent successes include direct involvement with the FAA and industry to set (1) rational, science-based flight- and duty-time limits and minimum rest requirements for passenger airline pilots and (2) more stringent minimum qualifications for all airline first officers. Making science-based fatigue rules applicable to all airline pilots; improving airline pilot training and professionalism; and safely integrating remotely piloted aircraft into civil airspace remain top priorities.
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the last part
(1) rational, science-based flight- and duty-time limits and minimum rest requirements for passenger airline pilots and (2) more stringent minimum qualifications for all airline first officers. Making science-based fatigue rules applicable to all airline pilots; improving airline pilot training and professionalism; and safely integrating remotely piloted aircraft into civil airspace remain top priorities.
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@vman, that part is referring to the "cargo cutout" in the FAR 117 rules.
 
Zeldman said:
Anyway, my thinking is anyone that works for someone else is someone that has given up. Once I realized that working for someone else meant I was doing the work so someone else earns lots of money, I went on my own. I say that even as my dad worked for TAMU for 39 years and did Ok. He had military retirement, teachers retirement, state retirement and his own private retirement. But that still won't equal the retirement I built for myself.
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depends on priorities & everyone answers to someone else
 
Zeldman said:
As tspear mentioned, there was once no OSHA, no labor laws, etc. Workers at the Ford Assembly plant were not allowed bathroom breaks or even allowed to smile while working. Workers were usually subjected to poor and sometimes dangerous working conditions, low wages, and unreasonably long hours. Unions came along and changed that. Unions had their time, no doubt.
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unions dealt with garbage then (& i don't mean the workers) & plenty more out there today,

if unions didn't have a purpose, they wouldn't even be around

do you think airline pilot fatigue is an issue?
 
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-n...ilots-for-last-year-s-near-disaster-1.4838586
Matt Hogan, chair of the Air Canada Pilots Association's elected council, urged the Canadian government to change its regulations around fatigue, saying it would help ensure the safety of both passengers and pilots.

The U.S. safety board recommended the development of technology to warn pilots and air traffic controllers when a landing plane appears to be aimed at a taxiway instead of a runway. It also said the Federal Aviation Administration should consider better lighting and markings to warn pilots about closed runways.
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guess who gets blamed & disciplined .. & or face consequences..

"U.S. NTSB faults Air Canada pilots for last year's near disaster"
'We could not have gotten literally or figuratively any closer to having a major disaster'
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Both pilots of the Air Canada Airbus A320 were experienced. The captain, who was flying the plane, had more than 20,000 hours of flying time, and the co-pilot had about 10,000 hours.
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a pension worth didley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger
Sullenberger was active with his union, serving as chairman of a safety committee within the Air Line Pilots Association.
<snip>
He said the training he received from a local flight instructor influenced his aviation career for the rest of his life
<snip>
"One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience, education and training. And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."
<snip>
On February 24, 2009, Sullenberger testified before the U.S. House of Representatives's Subcommittee on Aviation of the Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure that his salary had been cut by 40 percent, and that his pension, like most airline pensions, was terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarantee worth only pennies on the dollar.
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Half Fast said:
The RLA was passed in 1926. There is not a single airline pilot flying today who should not have known the story when he took the job. If the situation is intolerable, then don't tolerate it - go do something else.
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This is the reason for the “pilot shortage”
The treatment of employees in 121 is finally catching up with the times.
 
Lindberg said:
The better employee is the one who follows the rules. A good employer will empower its employees to use some discretion, but it's the airline's plane, fuel, and passengers. Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
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Lol
That old saying that legal isn’t always safe...

I have refused legal airplanes. My confidence in a pilot groups ability to determine when they should just say no, sit at the gate and wait for the flight to cancel has a lot to do with which airlines my family ride on.

Pilots with your mentality kill people and do dumb pilot tricks.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Pilots with your mentality kill people and do dumb pilot tricks.
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Giving the benefit of the doubt; I wouldn't call it a mentality issue as much as an ignorance issue. Those that don't work with this stuff day in and day out may not fully understand what is involved in operating a truly safe flight.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Giving the benefit of the doubt; I wouldn't call it a mentality issue as much as an ignorance issue. Those that don't work with this stuff day in and day out may not fully understand what is involved in operating a truly safe flight.
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After reading the rest of the discussion I agree with you.

I don’t think they understand what we are talking about especially when the example cited is about carpet. That’s not what what the airline guys here are talking about. It’s about legitimate safety of flight issues.
 
mscard88 said:
Again, you haven’t flown as an airline Capt so you know not of which you speak. The union contract allows a Capt to make safety calls that benefit even protect passengers. Most of the time passengers aren’t even aware of what the Capt did. The Capt is protected by the language of the contract.
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Again, you think your industry is unique. But non- union pilots are able to message the same calls. Ipso facto it is not the union's existence that allows pilots to make those calls.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, maybe. But do you really think it is fair to reap the benefits that the union brings to the employee group without contributing?
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What if he doesn't agree the union brings benefits? Are we back to deciding what's best for other people? Unions love to pretend they're based on freedom of association until it comes to open shops.
 
Palmpilot said:
Personally, I'm skeptical whenever anyone other than a member of a particular union claims that it's not needed.

Or do you think you know what's best for other people?
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How about representing an employer that says he'd give his employees the same deal but more money if he just didn't have to deal with the union's ********? And then you have to remind him that it worked actually be illegal for him to tell his employees that. I've been in many situations where a union has made its employees objectively worse off because the union needed to flex its muscles. Of course the union convinced the employees they were better off, and some of them believed it.
 
I cannot speak for any other union than ALPA. But if that individual doesn’t like how that employee group operates, he is certainly free to go somewhere else, or at least negotiate his own contract.

Look, I am not a huge fan of unions in general, but there are some industries where the have their advantages. In my opinion, airlines, for the most part, are one of them.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I cannot speak for any other union than ALPA. But if that individual doesn’t like how that employee group operates, he is certainly free to go somewhere else, or at least negotiate his own contract.
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But he can't work at your airline and not pay dues. That's not freedom of association. Far from it.
 
It has often been said that an employer gets the union it deserves.

Many ludicrously false and ill-informed statements in this thread, but I ain't calling them out.

But I agree that, in the airline industry, an effective union is important, for pilots. For other work groups, less so. But I could not imagine a pilot work group without a union. The most profitable airline ever has been among the most unionized shops ever. Respect means a lot.
 
Rushie said:
My Frontier flight round trip through two different cities totals $270. Includes the bundle and perks (one carry on, one checked, seat assignment and priority boarding). The same perks flying with American Airlines would cost me $615. That's a huge incentive to use Frontier, but I don't see how they can afford to fly the planes and pay the pilots with that kind of money. I'm following this thread with interest, I can see the pilots side. But I hope they don't strike til after my October trip.
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Since they have to follow the Railway Labor Act, they have to be released into the 30 day cooling off period before either side can do any kind of action. You’re good.
 
Lindberg said:
But he can't work at your airline and not pay dues. That's not freedom of association. Far from it.
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Maybe so. But if he doesn’t like it, he is free to go somewhere else. But there isn’t a major airline worth working for that doesn’t have some sort of union. Fact of life. And no one can get hired and negotiate his own deal. Just doesn’t work that way.

It’s a free country. One can figure out how to make a living without having to deal with a union if one chooses. It just will not be with a major airline.
 
Lindberg said:
But he can't work at your airline and not pay dues. That's not freedom of association. Far from it.
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Why should he work for my airline without paying for the benefits he receives that the union he despises negotiated on his behalf? Does he think he can do better on his own? Good luck with that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why should he work for my airline without paying for the benefits he receives that the union he despises negotiated on his behalf? Does he think he can do better on his own? Good luck with that.
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In airline world, for pilots, almost always true.

In many other contexts, other industries, not at all the case; in many crafts, the union deal is much worse than a quality craftsperson can get for themselves, before you get to the costs of the union.
 
SCCutler said:
...and could you even imagine facing possible discipline or company rule violation without the union's assistance?
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Both issues I had at my last airline, which were no fault of my own, the union did didly squat. The union president actually sent me a scathing email threatening me.

Heck when I had a passenger die on my aircraft the union president told the Captain they don't care about the FOs. He told him to let me speak for the crew at the management meeting.

So yes I've had those carpet dances without the union.
 
Lindberg said:
Again, you think your industry is unique. But non- union pilots are able to message the same calls. Ipso facto it is not the union's existence that allows pilots to make those calls.
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The pilots are protected from company discipline by the contract which the union negotiated on behalf of their respectful pilot group. Therefore, pilots will make the calls without fear of being punished or terminated. This thread is about airline unions, the airlines, and not other industries.
 
I have trouble reconciling the quality of life airline pilots frequently refer to with the adversarial relationship between management and pilots the same pilots frequently refer to. I'm not on that side of the industry but they are typically contradictory in my experience.

Nauga,
representin'
 
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