From the Peoples Socialist Republic of Kalifornia

[denverpilot]

You mean, like those big oil refineries in Carson, Torrance and Wilmington, which are across the street from housing tracts . . ?

The ones which feed square miles of tank farms surrounded by residential neighborhoods, through hundreds of miles of underground pipelines which run under people's back yards and carry everything from oil to gasoline to rocket fuel compounds?

The ones which get their crude and gas through TENS OF THOUSANDS of miles of underground pipelines from wells, harbors and even other states?

The ones which (collectively) have had over 1000 explosions and fires since 1960, resulting in dozens of deaths?

And how about the Chevron stuff up in the Bay Area . . ?

Please explain again how California is so much safer than Texas . . .

ROFL. Having worked in that biz in CA this made me chuckle. Let's not forget the Los Angeles refineries regularly trying to blow the harbor area sky high. LOL!

I know! I know! It's safer because most of those pipelines are Common Carrier making no one entity ever truly responsible and all of them fighting over who can put various stuff through them!

 

[denverpilot]

California is not broke. We had budget issues for a few years, but that has mostly been resolved. We do have too high of a tax burden, though and small business is getting squeezed.

From Wikipedia:

California's economy is the 12th largest economy in the world (2012),[9] if the states of the U.S. were compared with other countries.[10][11][12] As of 2010, the gross state product (GSP) is about $1.9 trillion, which is 13.06% of the United States gross domestic product (GDP)[

Compare that to Colorado, for instance:

The economy of the US state of Colorado according to The Bureau of Economic Analysis gross state product estimates for 2008 was $ 248.6 billion.[9][10] The Colorado economy ranked 20th largest in the United States in 2008.

I know which one issued IOUs and which one didn't. Thanks.

By the way, do you measure your wallet after payday on your Gross or on your Net? Just checking.

 

[timwinters]

The ones which (collectively) have had over 1000 explosions and fires since 1960, resulting in dozens of deaths?

Lives of those working in the plants or of those in the surrounding neighborhoods? Not to shortchange the value of a worker's life but there's a huge difference.

The West, TX explosion took 15 lives and injured over 200.

 

[DaleB]

Only on PoA where a thread is started with the theme of "porn" can it turn into a "states rights" and "bankruptcy" discussion..............

Well, they DO go together, don't they? One is porn, the other is mental... ah, never mind. I'm not even going to say it.

 

[Tom-D]

Diesel 4.499 says it all.

 

[Bob Noel]

Only on PoA where a thread is started with the theme of "porn" can it turn into a "states rights" and "bankruptcy" discussion..............

Probably better than the other way around.....

 

[JeffDG]

Allowing a State to drive thru the bankruptcy car wash doesn't get their debtors paid. Not even sure why you'd bring it up.

Bankruptcy as a strategy is already used by many companies. See: the original Global Crossing. Build a network you can't afford, file bankruptcy, negotiate lower prices after you already own all the gear, pizz off every vendor out there, and return the next day after doing a token layoff, as a new entity "DBA Global Crossing".

I don't know how many times they were "cut off" from purchases by companies I worked for or companies I had friends at. Last I heard, they aren't paying bills again and are cut off at multiple vendors again.

That company rakes in cash. They strategically pay their bills only when convenient, however.

You really don't want States doing that.

The day will come when a State pulls the plug and decides that they cannot repay their bonds. That's not an "if", it's a "when".

What I'm saying is that there needs to be a consequence when that happens. I think that a state surrending it's status as a state is a concequence that will prevent states from doing so except in the most dire of circumstances...

Think of what would happen if, for example, California were to pull the plug and surrender their statehood.

First: All the politicians in CA would be out of jobs, immediately. There would be no more state of California to work for.

Second: All the federal politicians from California would also be out of work. Feinstein, Boxer, all their Congresscritters...done. Only States are represented in the Senate and House of Representatives. No state, no Congresscritters or Senators.

The land mass that was previously California would become a territory, like Guam or Puerto Rico. When the people there got together and figured out a more reasonable way of governing themselves, they could petition Congress to be readmitted as a state again.

 

[Henning]

The day will come when a State pulls the plug and decides that they cannot repay their bonds. That's not an "if", it's a "when".

What I'm saying is that there needs to be a consequence when that happens. I think that a state surrending it's status as a state is a concequence that will prevent states from doing so except in the most dire of circumstances...

Think of what would happen if, for example, California were to pull the plug and surrender their statehood.

First: All the politicians in CA would be out of jobs, immediately. There would be no more state of California to work for.

Second: All the federal politicians from California would also be out of work. Feinstein, Boxer, all their Congresscritters...done. Only States are represented in the Senate and House of Representatives. No state, no Congresscritters or Senators.

The land mass that was previously California would become a territory, like Guam or Puerto Rico. When the people there got together and figured out a more reasonable way of governing themselves, they could petition Congress to be readmitted as a state again.

Nah, it would go back to Mexico, who would gladly accept.

 

[Skyscraper]

California is a horrible place to live. Gerry Brown comes over to my house every day and puts his boot heel right on my neck and it's already hard to breathe with all this smog.

Don't come here, you'll hate it.

 

[Old Geek]

California is a horrible place to live. Gerry Brown comes over to my house every day and puts his boot heel right on my neck and it's already hard to breathe with all this smog.

Don't come here, you'll hate it.

Agreed. As soon as you buy a firearm, Gerry Brown comes over and breaks it over your head. Don't come here, you'll hate it.

 

[Tom-D]

Agreed. As soon as you buy a firearm, Gerry Brown comes over and breaks it over your head. Don't come here, you'll hate it.

I was there this week, reminding my self why I left.

You can't buy guns in Ca. because they are all sold out to those who guard the pot crop.

You can't work at any of the major airports as an independent service provider with out a full blown NSA back ground check and a special gate gate card foe each and every airport you would like to enter.

Might as well leave it to the Mexicans, they took it back with our own money anyway.

 

[3393RP]

Lives of those working in the plants or of those in the surrounding neighborhoods? Not to shortchange the value of a worker's life but there's a huge difference.

The West, TX explosion took 15 lives and injured over 200.

The San Bruno PG&E explosion killed eight people. It happened in a residential neighborhood.

This tit for tat could go on forever...accidents will continue to happen in our industrial society.

 

[RogerT]

Goggles???? Hmmmmmmm I am for some reason strangely aroused.....

I'm getting this image of a porn actor coming into the scene
wearing only a condom and goggles. Now is that hot or what. Not
that I'd be watching that stuff .. er ... uh .. nooooo.

RT

 

[RotorAndWing]

The San Bruno PG&E explosion killed eight people. It happened in a residential neighborhood.

This tit for tat could go on forever...accidents will continue to happen in our industrial society.

And what about shipyard safety! And building safety!


Huh?

Oh sorry, 'nuther thread......

 

[John Baker]

As a person who has lived most of his life in Kalyfornia, I can attest that every single thing you easterners are saying about the Republic are the absolute truth. As a side note; anyone who resides east of U.S. 5 are considered easterners, since you live on the east coast as far as us westerners are concerned.

California is indeed an over governed micro managed state.

-John

 

[Old Geek]

As a person who has lived most of his life in Kalyfornia, I can attest that every single thing you easterners are saying about the Republic are the absolute truth. As a side note; anyone who resides east of U.S. 5 are considered easterners, since you live on the east coast as far as us westerners are concerned.

California is indeed an over governed micro managed state.

-John

And I've lived in California for the last 40 or so years and John is absolutely right. OTOH, my brother up in Washington used to tease me about California. He's seen the changes in Washington over the last 20 years and doesn't tease me about it any more. There are now *lots* of places in the US that are just as repressive in terms of personal freedoms as California. No need to name them.

Despite all the badness attributed to California, I still managed to work the last 40 years with a grand total of about 9 months unemployment, start and successfully run a small engineering and manufacturing business, raise a wonderful daughter who got a wonderful education at a reasonable cost, and accumulate enough wealth to keep my wife happy and a plane in the hanger. All with a high school degree.

I've always voted conservatively and I ran and was elected to public office where I could act conservatively. I might have made a little difference, but the overriding factor in California politics is always the public service unions. I see no way to break their hold.

 

[John221us]

All I can say is that you guys are delusional if you believe that ineffective government and self serving/corrupt politicians are limited to California. Washington DC is full of them. California is a great place to live and raise a family. I have done well here and enjoy my access to many spectacular places, such as Yosemite, Tahoe and the Sierras, Napa and the beautiful coastline.

 

[denverpilot]

The problem is, voting "conservatively" never was. Name a Republican who actually is fiscally conservative with government money, or who didn't pass a single law lowering personal freedoms. Speaking of "results", that is.

 

[Old Geek]

The problem is, voting "conservatively" never was. Name a Republican who actually is fiscally conservative with government money, or who didn't pass a single law lowering personal freedoms. Speaking of "results", that is.

Again, back to the public employee's union. Regardless of your social views or political stance, it is virtually impossible to be elected to any public office without the support of the local public service employees' unions.

I was surprised at how many local elections are/were determined by the local firefighter's union.

 

[SoloEqs]

Lives of those working in the plants or of those in the surrounding neighborhoods? Not to shortchange the value of a worker's life but there's a huge difference.

The West, TX explosion took 15 lives and injured over 200.

Nice dodge!

Please explain to me how Texans are in greater risk in the same town as a fertilizer plant than Californians are living among several refineries and tank farms filled with a few billion gallons of oil, gasoline and toxic chemicals (and on top of the pipelines which transport all that stuff).

Even better, you have those disasters-in-waiting situated on top of major earthquake faults, next to major thoroughfares, and where the prevailing winds will carry deadly fumes throughout the LA Basin.

There is a buried, abandoned pipeline that runs from the Chevron refinery in the San Francisco Bay to the former Castle AFB. That 140-mile long pipe carried JP-4, runs right through residential streets and people's yards, and is still mostly full of fuel. And it's LEAKING.

You were saying something about planning and zoning in the People's Republic . . ?

BTW, the huge difference is that when a neighbor dies, he's dead, while when a worker dies, he's . . .uh . . .dead . . . .and the worker is there 40 hours per week, while the neighbor is there all the time, so exposure is far greater.

 

[SoloEqs]

Nah, it would go back to Mexico, who would gladly accept.

. . .and only later realize the true meaning of the phrase "white elephant" . . .

 

[Old Geek]

Just as a point of reference, the Chevron refinery was built in the 1920's, when there wasn't many people and houses around. Sorta like lots of airports...

 

[Henning]

Just as a point of reference, the Chevron refinery was built in the 1920's, when there wasn't many people and houses around. Sorta like lots of airports...

When I lived at Newmark's marina in Wilmington there were fires or explosions pretty much weekly. I remember when a hydrogen tank blew up at the IIRC Texaco refinery, it shook the boat so hard I thought the mast came down.

None of this has anything to with governance though, the regulations on all this stuff exist everywhere.

 

[SoloEqs]

All I can say is that you guys are delusional if you believe that ineffective government and self serving/corrupt politicians are limited to California. Washington DC is full of them. California is a great place to live and raise a family. I have done well here and enjoy my access to many spectacular places, such as Yosemite, Tahoe and the Sierras, Napa and the beautiful coastline.

I spent the first 30 years of my life in California, then left to seek moral asylum in Nevada, and have also lived in Arizona and Utah.

There is very little possibility that I could ever be convinced to live in California again. I can visit if I want to see Yosemite or the west half of Tahoe. When I want coastline, I go to Hawai'i.

When the best you can say about corrupt politicians in California is that DC is full of them too, you've lost the battle.

 

[Old Geek]

When I lived at Newmark's marina in Wilmington there were fires or explosions pretty much weekly. I remember when a hydrogen tank blew up at the IIRC Texaco refinery, it shook the boat so hard I thought the mast came down.

None of this has anything to with governance though, the regulations on all this stuff exist everywhere.

I lived across the bay, with the Chevron refinery in visual range for 10 years. No explosions, but a couple of impressive fires in that time. The worst industrial incident we had was a rail tanker of concentrated sulfuric acid running away. The acid mist closed down schools and businesses for about a 2 mile radius. Unrelated to the refinery.

If you want a good risk-management reason not to live in the bay area, it's earthquakes. They are real and have the potential to reduce a couple million people into lawless chaos. So there you go. I've loaded the gun and handed it to you...

 

[SoloEqs]

Just as a point of reference, the Chevron refinery was built in the 1920's, when there wasn't many people and houses around. Sorta like lots of airports...

That doesn't bolster Tim's position much, when you point out that the planning and zoning people said to build houses where there were already refineries and tank farms . . .

 

[Old Geek]

There is a buried, abandoned pipeline that runs from the Chevron refinery in the San Francisco Bay to the former Castle AFB. That 140-mile long pipe carried JP-4, runs right through residential streets and people's yards, and is still mostly full of fuel. And it's LEAKING.

Do you have a cite for that? It's not that I don't believe you, just that I want to learn more about it. I would have hoped that the line was pigged and filled with water before abandoning it.

 

[Old Geek]

That doesn't bolster Tim's position much, when you point out that the planning and zoning people said to build houses where there were already refineries and tank farms . . .

It's not like they built the houses 10 years ago. With the exception of Point Richmond, there is a far sized industrial buffer zone around the refinery. And Point Richmond considers itself pretty safe because of a hill and prevailing winds...

 

[SoloEqs]

Do you have a cite for that? It's not that I don't believe you, just that I want to learn more about it. I would have hoped that the line was pigged and filled with water before abandoning it.

I found it when I was inspecting gas pipelines on a contract for PG&E, when my FP400 (hydrogen-fueled ion-counter) flamed out because of the massive amount of volatiles it had detected. This was in a neighborhood in Lodi. In an elementary school parking lot. The PG&E crew who responded had the map showing transmission lines through the area carrying natural gas, various fuels and oils, etc.

Once we had figured out what was leaking, and that it wasn't a PG&E line, we all left, because there are so many leak reports on that line the state doesn't even take reports any more.

 

[SoloEqs]

It's not like they built the houses 10 years ago. With the exception of Point Richmond, there is a far sized industrial buffer zone around the refinery. And Point Richmond considers itself pretty safe because of a hill and prevailing winds...

Look at the refineries in Carson, Torrance, etc. Houses on one side of the street, petrochemicals on the other.

 

[SCCutler]

All I can say is that you guys are delusional if you believe that ineffective government and self serving/corrupt politicians are limited to California. Washington DC is full of them.

This is key. Note well: often times, those were made fun of or mocked suffer these slings and arrows as a result of envy. There is much about California to be envied, much that is good, and its historical success and growth are compelling proof of this reality.

The cautionary note would be that, over the years, California has been regarded as a leader, a bellwether if you will, for what is coming in the future for everyone else, and in this regard, it ain't good. It may be that poorly – controlled government growth, an abusive public sector labor environment, and fiscal irresponsibility are inevitable; if so, and if California continues to be a predictor of what's coming for other states, then we are indeed in big trouble, aren't we?

California is a great place to live and raise a family. I have done well here and enjoy my access to many spectacular places, such as Yosemite, Tahoe and the Sierras, Napa and the beautiful coastline.

Still, there is a lot about California I loved when I lived there, and I don't regret any minute of it.

 

[Henning]

I lived across the bay, with the Chevron refinery in visual range for 10 years. No explosions, but a couple of impressive fires in that time. The worst industrial incident we had was a rail tanker of concentrated sulfuric acid running away. The acid mist closed down schools and businesses for about a 2 mile radius. Unrelated to the refinery.

If you want a good risk-management reason not to live in the bay area, it's earthquakes. They are real and have the potential to reduce a couple million people into lawless chaos. So there you go. I've loaded the gun and handed it to you...

I went through the Loma Prieta quake living in Santa Cruz, and the Northridge quake living in Long Beach, neither caused a 'lawless chaos', in fact people behaved better than normal. I was living on Catalina running the Avalon Shore Boat when the Rodney King verdicts came in though, we watched LA burn that night from the top of the hill. Flew a lesson into LGB the next morning and reported over LGB's DMV "and it's on fire". That brought a lot of cheers keying in on freq lol.

 

[denverpilot]

Do you have a cite for that? It's not that I don't believe you, just that I want to learn more about it. I would have hoped that the line was pigged and filled with water before abandoning it.

I was thinking the same thing. Full of refined product is not the normal way to abandon a line anywhere I ever worked.

 

[denverpilot]

The cautionary note would be that, over the years, California has been regarded as a leader, a bellwether if you will, for what is coming in the future for everyone else, and in this regard, it ain't good. It may be that poorly – controlled government growth, an abusive public sector labor environment, and fiscal irresponsibility are inevitable; if so, and if California continues to be a predictor of what's coming for other states, then we are indeed in big trouble, aren't we?

Only one nit to pick.

Predictor, maybe. If we're stupid enough to follow suit without changes.

Leader? No. Unless you consider going backwards, leadership.

 

[DaleB]

Only one nit to pick.

Predictor, maybe. If we're stupid enough to follow suit without changes.

Leader? No. Unless you consider going backwards, leadership.

And yet, the country seems to be following CA in almost every way. Including backwards, in a hurry. I know I'd like to think otherwise, but I don't.

Sigh. I'm re-thinking my plans to live to be 150.

 

[SoloEqs]

I was thinking the same thing. Full of refined product is not the normal way to abandon a line anywhere I ever worked.

It's a long pipeline with lots of elbows and a lot of ups and downs. I wouldn't bet that they could do any more than blowing it down.

I'm sure that they made a stab at purging, but let's also remember that the product had been paid for at the refinery, and it belongs to the DOD, who has a long record of doing the bare minimum cleanup.

 

[Henning]

It's a long pipeline with lots of elbows and a lot of ups and downs. I wouldn't bet that they could do any more than blowing it down.

I'm sure that they made a stab at purging, but let's also remember that the product had been paid for at the refinery, and it belongs to the DOD, who has a long record of doing the bare minimum cleanup.

Any pipeline can be pigged.

 

[denverpilot]

It's a long pipeline with lots of elbows and a lot of ups and downs. I wouldn't bet that they could do any more than blowing it down.

I'm sure that they made a stab at purging, but let's also remember that the product had been paid for at the refinery, and it belongs to the DOD, who has a long record of doing the bare minimum cleanup.

I'm not buying it. I won't demand any cites, or anything like that, but pipelines are always purge-able. Even in normal operation sections have problems and need repairs. If nothing else for idiots with backhoes.

There's a reason the telco industry has a joke phrase for idiots cutting fiber cables: Backhoe signal fade.

 

[Henning]

I'm not buying it. I won't demand any cites, or anything like that, but pipelines are always purge-able. Even in normal operation sections have problems and need repairs. If nothing else for idiots with backhoes.

There's a reason the telco industry has a joke phrase for idiots cutting fiber cables: Backhoe signal fade.

Backhoes, track hoes, and bulldozers caused a lot more call ins when I was flying pipeline than anything else. I even landed once on the RoW to stop some guys digging where there wouldn't have been time for the truck to get out before they hit it.

 

[SoloEqs]

Any pipeline can be pigged.

If you say so.