Frequency for jabbering on

timwinters said:
I think you missed his sarcasm. (at least I hope he was being sarcastic...that's the way I took it)
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Tim, if he was, great. My point stands, though...there are plenty of people who do it. It adds to my workload if I'm trying to monitor and interact with New York approach at the same time.

It actually happened on my last flight, NY was issuing a traffic call to me just as some dolt decides to blare something meaningless out on guard to his buddy.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
OK so flight of two step by step?

Leaving a controlled field, what is the process beginning w/ Taxi request
If anyone has the energy, I would like the step by step from that point up until landing which will probably be a controlled field (haven't decided on lunch yet)
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http://www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG.pdf

start about page 11. Its obviously more focused to very organized formation flight but the basics of radio coms in a formation flight (which is what you will technically be as saying flight of #....) are the same no matter what.

Hope this helps and a BIG disclamer... don't try actual close formation flight without proper training.
 
vfsit said:
BIG disclamer... don't try actual close formation flight without proper training.
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Did it once for a few minutes. more stress than I need on a 2 hour flight with 4 additional family members on board.

What is the max distance that can be considered a flight of 2?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Did it once for a few minutes. more stress than I need on a 2 hour flight with 4 additional family members on board.

What is the max distance that can be considered a flight of 2?
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basically within 1 mile to be standard and altitude within 100'

how dissimilar are the aircraft? basically what are you two going to be flying?
 
vfsit said:
basically within 1 mile to be standard and altitude within 100'

how dissimilar are the aircraft? basically what are you two going to be flying?
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TB9 & 172
Same performance specs
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
TB9 & 172
Same performance specs
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Then the flying part should be relatively easy, just keep it loose and you'll be able to figure out power settings pretty soon that will keep you close enough to each other. Depending on the flight time trade off who is actually flying "lead" to make it easier for each other and give each of you practice. it is a great way to travel multiple aircraft to the same destination.

It goes without saying that both of you need to keep an eye on your own aircraft's systems and fuel state. Agree ahead of time the limits of your flying... everything.... and if one gets to your agreed low limit on fuel (bingo fuel), you both land no questions.
 
coma24 said:
Someone who's actually done it will probably post more info :)
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I've done it a couple times, but only once into or out of a controlled airport. On that one, I was chase in a plane that had an electrical system failure going into KSUS (D underlying B ). Procedure was to do whatever lead did. If he taxied onto the runway, so did I. If he turned final, so did I. We worked out ahead of time where to land. Ie, lead landed 1,000 ft. Down on the left side of the runway and I used the numbers on the right side. As coma24 said, there's only one plane as far as ATC cares.
 
You get to call your flight whatever you want??
 
It'd be based on the callsign of the lead. "N6PC, flight of two, FBO with Alpha, taxi, VFR departure to the west."
 
Out of curiosity, how do you handle landing clearances? Are both of you on the pavement at the same time? Does ATC expect two touchdowns 1/2 mile apart with one clearance?

Seems like a problematic point.
 
MAKG1 said:
Out of curiosity, how do you handle landing clearances? Are both of you on the pavement at the same time? Does ATC expect two touchdowns 1/2 mile apart with one clearance?

Seems like a problematic point.
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Yep I think we are just going to take off in a normal sequence and be about 5 min apart in the air en route to the towered field.
 
timwinters said:
I'm not sure it "belongs" to the mfgrs.
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Technically, it "belongs" to the Federal government, but it's allocated to those companies for their use, and their use alone. For anyone else, using it would legally be like broadcasting on some FM radio station's assigned frequency.
 
N801BH said:
That freq is available to ALL flight testing....
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No, it is not. If you check the FCC's frequency allocation database, you'll see it is specifically allocated to those companies alone, and even then, each company has its use only in certain geographical areas so they do not interfere with each other.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it is not. If you check the FCC's frequency allocation database, you'll see it is specifically allocated to those companies alone, and even then, each company has its use only in certain geographical areas so they do not interfere with each other.
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Interesting....

Any other discrete aircraft radio freq that is strictly for a private business??:dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Technically, it "belongs" to the Federal government, but it's allocated to those companies for their use, and their use alone. For anyone else, using it would legally be like broadcasting on some FM radio station's assigned frequency.
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Sikorsky

Calspan

General Atomics


Etc.

And from what I read on the FCC site, companies are only required to get a license if they have a ground station.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
You have a problem with that?
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Sorry for the confusion; That was my tongue-in-cheek response to Greg's suggestion to use the glider frequency because it's "usually quiet." A lot of freqs fit that description. Most shouldn't be used.

Why wasn't this thread over by post #2? 122.75 is safe. legal, and fun.
 
I agree with Ron...122.75 is the legal air to air freq as I have read with the same question


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I just don't understand why people mess with 123.45, glider frequencies, etc. when the answer is so simple.

You're right though. If we just wanted a correct answer we'd just have Q&A with Ron.
 
MAKG1 said:
Out of curiosity, how do you handle landing clearances? Are both of you on the pavement at the same time? Does ATC expect two touchdowns 1/2 mile apart with one clearance?

Seems like a problematic point.
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ATC doesn't care if it's 1/2 mile or 1/2 foot between the aircraft in a flight. The pilots are responsible for inter-flight separation.
 
So we are doing the first leg 5 miles apart from controlled to controlled on FF

the next leg is 30 min from controlled to uncontrolled.

How do we takeoff as a flight of 2

are we both on 1200, take off, join, and one goes to standby
does the tower clear the flight of two or plane 1 and then plane 2?
 
I would suggest you not fly as a flight of two if you have no previous formation experience. If you're 5 miles apart you most certainly are not a flight of two. There is no specific separation distance that I'm aware of but the general expectation is that you're close enough that for the purposes of traffic separation the controller can treat you as one object.

Flight of two works well if you both have formation experience. Learning formation is fun. Trying to learn how to fly formation as a flight with two airplanes full of people and you being unfamiliar with formation and the airplane you're flying sounds like a bad path to go down.

Just my opinion :)
 
jesse said:
I would suggest you not fly as a flight of two if you have no previous formation experience. If you're 5 miles apart you most certainly are not a flight of two. There is no specific separation distance that I'm aware of but the general expectation is that you're close enough that for the purposes of traffic separation the controller can treat you as one object.

Flight of two works well if you both have formation experience. Learning formation is fun. Trying to learn how to fly formation as a flight with two airplanes full of people and you being unfamiliar with formation and the airplane you're flying sounds like a bad path to go down.

Just my opinion :)
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I have done it just not in a controlled environment

3flight91503102.JPG




3flight29172088.JPG


3flight58004972.JPG
 
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I just don't know how the takeoff process goes w/ flight of 2 from a controlled field.
Maybe we both get up and join up after released from the class D controller.
 
jesse said:
I would suggest you not fly as a flight of two if you have no previous formation experience. If you're 5 miles apart you most certainly are not a flight of two. There is no specific separation distance that I'm aware of but the general expectation is that you're close enough that for the purposes of traffic separation the controller can treat you as one object.

Flight of two works well if you both have formation experience. Learning formation is fun. Trying to learn how to fly formation as a flight with two airplanes full of people and you being unfamiliar with formation and the airplane you're flying sounds like a bad path to go down.

Just my opinion :)
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From the Pilot/Controller Glossary
FORMATION FLIGHT− More than one aircraft
which, by prior arrangement between the pilots,
operate as a single aircraft with regard to navigation
and position reporting. Separation between aircraft
within the formation is the responsibility of the flight
leader and the pilots of the other aircraft in the flight.
This includes transition periods when aircraft within
the formation are maneuvering to attain separation
from each other to effect individual control and
during join-up and breakaway.
a. A standard formation is one in which a
proximity of no more than 1 mile laterally or
longitudinally and within 100 feet vertically from the
flight leader is maintained by each wingman.
b. Nonstandard formations are those operating
under any of the following conditions:
1. When the flight leader has requested and ATC
has approved other than standard formation
dimensions.
2. When operating within an authorized altitude
reservation (ALTRV) or under the provisions of a
letter of agreement.
3. When the operations are conducted in
airspace specifically designed for a special activity.
(See ALTITUDE RESERVATION.)
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)
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SixPapaCharlie said:
I have done it just not in a controlled environent



3flight55699522.JPG
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Ok, well if you're comfortable with it:

The expectation is that you stay within 1 mile of the other airplane and within 100 ft altitude. I'd suggest closer. Reference is the definition of "standard formation" in the pilot controller glossary.

ATC will treat you as if you're one airplane. Everything will be instructions to the "flight". If ATC commands the flight turn to a heading then the lead does that and you focus on maintaining formation.

Unless you break the flight, which you can advise ATC you'd like to do, you will be cleared to land as a flight and should remain within 1 mile of each other. Follow the lead when you land. It'd probably be a good idea to break the flight before landing if you're not comfortable landing with another airplane that near. Lots of ways to do that...can break in the pattern (lookup overhead break) or you could just advice ATC that you will be breaking the formation prior to landing and let them know how that will be done.
 
but so what is the takeoff process at a controlled field?
first plane is cleared to takeoff. 2nd plane is not squawking standby and sneaking on to the runway

I cant figure this part out
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
but so what is the takeoff process at a controlled field?
first plane is cleared to takeoff. 2nd plane is not squawking standby and sneaking on to the runway

I cant figure this part out
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"Podunk Ground, Cherokee 123 flight of two ready to taxi, with bravo"
"Cherokee 123 flight taxi to runway 18"
"Podunk tower, Cherokee 123 flight of two ready for takeoff at 18"
"Cherokee 123 flight cleared for takeoff runway 18, left turn out approved on course"

How you takeoff is up to you but you need to stay within the above mile. I'll wait for the formation experts to describe what the best way to takeoff is.

I generally either just takeoff in formation if the types are close enough. You COULD both take the runway, lead departs, and then you depart close in trail.

Lots of room for things to go wrong with formation flying in particular with takeoffs and landings. Ultimately ATC doesn't care how you run your formation provided you stay close. In their mind you are one big ass airplane that they need to add an extra mile of traffic separation to accommodate.

There is a lot of planning that needs to happen between pilots to do this sort of thing. Since things will probably be stressful enough with two planes full of people it might be best to fly formation for the enroute phase and operate as independent aircraft for takeoff and landing.

You do get some pretty cool pictures:

4m9G8R3.jpg


NzzkdBh.jpg


IMG_1415_zpsf001685f.jpg
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
but so what is the takeoff process at a controlled field?
first plane is cleared to takeoff. 2nd plane is not squawking standby and sneaking on to the runway

I cant figure this part out
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Aircraft 1 squawk VFR.
Aircraft 2 squawk standby.

Taxi to runway one behind the other.

Aircraft 1 calls tower: ... Flight of two ... Ready for takeoff ...
Tower calls flight: ... Cleared for takeoff ...
Aircraft 1 taxis onto runway and lines up downwind of centerline.
Aircraft 2 taxis onto runway and lines up upwind of centerline and several feet behind #1.

Aircraft 1 starts take off roll.
As soon as Aircraft 1 is rolling, Aircraft 2 starts takeoff roll at the same time.
Both take off.

Aircraft 2 keeps Aircraft 1 in sight and avoids at all times.
Both level off at agreed upon altitude and airspeed.
Aircraft 2 should not be in direct trail. Should be off to one side to avoid wake turbulence.
Aircraft 2 never overtake Aircraft 1. Never lose sight of Aircraft 1.

Banks at a low angle so that wing does not obscure the other aircraft.

Agree to a procedure if you lose sight.

If you want to switch so that Aircraft 2 is in lead and Aircraft 2 in trail, coordinate on the radio, "Aircraft 2, take the lead". Lead aircraft maintains speed, altitude, direction. "Aircraft 2 is taking lead." Trailing aircraft pulls up parallel to the lead to the left of lead so that the other pilot can see him. Trailing aircraft then pulls ahead of former lead and becomes lead. New lead aircraft squawks VFR; new trailing aircraft squawks standby. "Aircraft 2 is lead."

...

Aircraft 1 (Lead) calls tower: ... Flight of two ... 10 miles ...
... downwind ...

Adjust distance on downwind to be about 300 feet apart.

Tower calls flight: ... cleared to land ...
Aircraft 1: ... cleared to land ...
Aircraft 1 lands on centerline of the runway. Land on the second half of the runway.
Aircraft 2 lands on centerline of the runway. Land on the first third of the runway.

Both taxi off the runway.

COMMON MISTAKES:
Lead not maintaining speed and altitude reliably. If lead has autopilot, use it, but not for turns. Lead use altitude hold if you have it.
Losing sight of the lead aircraft in a bank.
Overtaking the lead aircraft in a turn.
Don't slow down and stall on landing. You both can use the runway to the end.
Not breaking formation if you lose sight of the lead.


http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live/Technique?ipp=50&watch={8A189434-E97E-4AF4-991C-E98626A1221A}

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2011/Oct/57893/111013 FLYING LESSONS.pdf
 
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jesse said:
I would suggest you not fly as a flight of two if you have no previous formation experience. If you're 5 miles apart you most certainly are not a flight of two. There is no specific separation distance that I'm aware of but the general expectation is that you're close enough that for the purposes of traffic separation the controller can treat you as one object.

Flight of two works well if you both have formation experience. Learning formation is fun. Trying to learn how to fly formation as a flight with two airplanes full of people and you being unfamiliar with formation and the airplane you're flying sounds like a bad path to go down.

Just my opinion :)
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Question.......

I have done "flight of two" take off and landings before, back 30+ years ago out of MCO.. Runway was 12,000 long and 200' wide.... Not an issue and the tower didn't blink an eye...

Fast forward to a couple of years ago...

My buddy in his Super Cub and I got a "flight of two" clearance from the tower here in Jackson... He was on the left side of centerline and I was on the right.... Not a problem... For take off...:yes:

We flew around the valley for an hour or so and on landing I called and asked for a " flight of two" for landing clearance... The tower then said he needed a minimum of 2500 vertical separation between landing aircrafts..
WTF ???

Is this a landing procedure thingie or just a SERCO ( contract tower) rule ??:dunno:..
 
N801BH said:
Question.......

I have done "flight of two" take off and landings before, back 30+ years ago out of MCO.. Runway was 12,000 long and 200' wide.... Not an issue and the tower didn't blink an eye...

Fast forward to a couple of years ago...

My buddy in his Super Cub and I got a "flight of two" clearance from the tower here in Jackson... He was on the left side of centerline and I was on the right.... Not a problem... For take off...:yes:

We flew around the valley for an hour or so and on landing I called and asked for a " flight of two" for landing clearance... The tower then said he needed a minimum of 2500 vertical separation between landing aircrafts..
WTF ???

Is this a landing procedure thingie or just a SERCO ( contract tower) rule ??:dunno:..
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That's just crazy. Any tower ought to be able to handle two aircraft in the pattern simultaneously at pattern altitude. A half-mile vertical separation isn't even required in normal cruise. Remember the hemispheric rules.
 
Probably a wake turbulence CYA thing. If you specifically asked for wake turbulence to be waived you might have gotten permission to land in formation. More CYA they can't suggest it but can do it if you ask
N801BH said:
Question.......

I have done "flight of two" take off and landings before, back 30+ years ago out of MCO.. Runway was 12,000 long and 200' wide.... Not an issue and the tower didn't blink an eye...

Fast forward to a couple of years ago...

My buddy in his Super Cub and I got a "flight of two" clearance from the tower here in Jackson... He was on the left side of centerline and I was on the right.... Not a problem... For take off...:yes:

We flew around the valley for an hour or so and on landing I called and asked for a " flight of two" for landing clearance... The tower then said he needed a minimum of 2500 vertical separation between landing aircrafts..
WTF ???

Is this a landing procedure thingie or just a SERCO ( contract tower) rule ??:dunno:..
Click to expand...
 
jesse said:
"Podunk Ground, Cherokee 123 flight of two ready to taxi, with bravo"
"Cherokee 123 flight taxi to runway 18"
"Podunk tower, Cherokee 123 flight of two ready for takeoff at 18"
"Cherokee 123 flight cleared for takeoff runway 18, left turn out approved on course"

How you takeoff is up to you but you need to stay within the above mile. I'll wait for the formation experts to describe what the best way to takeoff is.

I generally either just takeoff in formation if the types are close enough. You COULD both take the runway, lead departs, and then you depart close in trail.

Lots of room for things to go wrong with formation flying in particular with takeoffs and landings. Ultimately ATC doesn't care how you run your formation provided you stay close. In their mind you are one big ass airplane that they need to add an extra mile of traffic separation to accommodate.

There is a lot of planning that needs to happen between pilots to do this sort of thing. Since things will probably be stressful enough with two planes full of people it might be best to fly formation for the enroute phase and operate as independent aircraft for takeoff and landing.

You do get some pretty cool pictures:

4m9G8R3.jpg


NzzkdBh.jpg


IMG_1415_zpsf001685f.jpg
Click to expand...


Those photos are incredible
 
timwinters said:
Sikorsky

Calspan

General Atomics


Etc.

And from what I read on the FCC site, companies are only required to get a license if they have a ground station.
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Like I said -- only those companies listed by the FCC are authorized to use the frequency -- nobody else, no matter what they're doing. And that's irrespective of the need for a separate station license. Station licensing and frequency allocation are separate issues.
 
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