Frequency for jabbering on

SixPapaCharlie said:
So we are doing the first leg 5 miles apart from controlled to controlled on FF

the next leg is 30 min from controlled to uncontrolled.

How do we takeoff as a flight of 2

are we both on 1200, take off, join, and one goes to standby
does the tower clear the flight of two or plane 1 and then plane 2?
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If you don't know the answers to these questions, you should not be trying to fly formation.

I'm not trying to discourage formation flying, as I do a good bit of it myself and find it very challenging and enjoyable. However, formation flying is a complex operation requiring a lot of knowledge of the procedures as well as stick-and-rudder skills to hold the plane in the correct position relative to the lead aircraft, and you can't learn all that via an internet discussion board.

I suggest that you either get the necessary training from an outfit like FAST or FFI (search this site for posts on that), or just give yourselves about five minute spacing and keep in touch on 122.75 while you're en route.
 
Ron Levy said:
Like I said -- only those companies listed by the FCC are authorized to use the frequency -- nobody else, no matter what they're doing. And that's irrespective of the need for a separate station license. Station licensing and frequency allocation are separate issues.
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You'll have to prove that one to me Ron. i.e. cite. You claim there are only two companies authorized to use the frequency. I found numerous more.

:dunno:
 
There's no way the tower said he needed '2500ft of VERTICAL separation'. He was probably talking about how far the first guy had to be down the field before the other could land. See Same Runway Separation for arrivals (http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0310.html#atc0310.html.2)

That would only make sense if he was NOT treating you as a flight, but as individual aircraft, in which case a landing clearance would need to be issued to the second aircraft.
 
coma24 said:
There's no way the tower said he needed '2500ft of VERTICAL separation'. He was probably talking about how far the first guy had to be down the field before the other could land. See Same Runway Separation for arrivals (http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0310.html#atc0310.html.2)

That would only make sense if he was NOT treating you as a flight, but as individual aircraft, in which case a landing clearance would need to be issued to the second aircraft.
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That is exactly what he said.....

My question is,, why can two planes take off side by side within 50 feet and then need 2500 feet clear of each other to land?:dunno:
 
Maybe that controller didn't know the rules.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Have you ever heard glider pilots on 123.3? They sound like teenage girls 'I'm over the pizza place climbing at 1.5 wearing a white floppy hat.' 'Roger I'm over the mall also wearing a white floppy hat.' There is no safety or commercial impact to using 123.3 for air to air.
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SixPapaCharlie said:
HA!
Translate please.
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I didn't see a translation so here ya go

the references to where they are indicate they are thermalling over said area

1.5 = 1500 feet. kinda low unless they are close to the airport

white floppy hat = glider pilots are famous for wearing bucket hats because the button on top of a regular ball cap is infamous for breaking canopies in rough landings
 
Ron Levy said:
If you don't know the answers to these questions, you should not be trying to fly formation.

I'm not trying to discourage formation flying, as I do a good bit of it myself and find it very challenging and enjoyable. However, formation flying is a complex operation requiring a lot of knowledge of the procedures as well as stick-and-rudder skills to hold the plane in the correct position relative to the lead aircraft, and you can't learn all that via an internet discussion board.

I suggest that you either get the necessary training from an outfit like FAST or FFI (search this site for posts on that), or just give yourselves about five minute spacing and keep in touch on 122.75 while you're en route.
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This is good advice. At the end of the day you are a relatively inexperienced pilot with just one year and not so many hours in the left seat. Going cross country with two aircraft full of family members may not be the best time to do this, especially since you admittedly don't know the proper procedures to fly formation.

This isn't meant to denigrate your skills or decision making. I'm just advising caution. Your original goal of simply communicating on a common frequency is a better idea.
 
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Ron Levy said:
That frequency belongs to two major aircraft manufacturers for their flight test operations, and if they hear you on it, they get really annoyed because it interferes with their very costly operations. Potentially, it's an FCC violation. Stick with the one legal freq 122.75.
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It doesn't belong exclusively to "two major aircraft manufacturers." It's available to be assigned to various manufacturers. Wierd Jim here was one of those users and he has some unkind things to say about those using 123.45 for idle chit chat.
 
timwinters said:
You'll have to prove that one to me Ron. i.e. cite. You claim there are only two companies authorized to use the frequency. I found numerous more.

:dunno:
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No, sir, I don't have to prove anything to you. I said it was reserved for the companies listed in the FCC database, and that's the fact. It is most definitely not for just anyone doing what they call flight testing. If you don't believe me, ask the FCC.
 
It was pretty easy.

Hangar hotel is just awesome by the way.
I love this place.
 
I have pics but no computer.
Well get some up Monday
 
We took off on ff but they cut us loose quickly so we did 122. 70 (frequency of ctaf in fredericksburg)
Lots of flights of 2 and 3 on there so we fit right in
 
I did walk into the back of the Cessna wing and cut my forehead.
So there was some excitement
 
Ron Levy said:
Where did I say "exclusively"? I can't find the post where I said that.
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Ron Levy said:
That frequency belongs to two major aircraft manufacturers for their flight test operations, and if they hear you on it, they get really annoyed because it interferes with their very costly operations. Potentially, it's an FCC violation. Stick with the one legal freq 122.75.
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And you asserted that Boeing and Lockmart were the only two authorized to use the frequency. While you never used the term "exclusively" when you say it "belongs to two major aircraft manufacturers"...well...that pretty much means "exclusively". Doesn't it? :dunno:

Ron, if you would admit when you're wrong occasionally, you'd carry far more weight around here when you're right.

Ron Levy said:
No, sir, I don't have to prove anything to you. I said it was reserved for the companies listed in the FCC database, and that's the fact. It is most definitely not for just ainyone doing what they call flight testing. If you don't believe me, ask the FCC.
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Actually, yes you do. The way the Internet works is that the onus is on you to prove your statement is correct and not on me to prove your statement is incorrect. i.e. everything is incorrect until proven correct and not vice versa.
 
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JeffDG said:
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to DF a source moving at 110 kts?
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Depends on if you have (expensive) modern Doppler gear connected to other Doppler gear (via Internet VPN) at more than one location. :)

(Few do. FCC has some cool toys these days, though. A friend has described how fast it resolves a solution on various stuff. It's impressive. If three receivers can hear a signal, it's nailed. He's in the group that monitors the nut bags at the UN for violations, because they think their radios that are legal at home are cool to mash-to-mumble on, as soon as they arrive here, amongst other things. All the gear is available for public sale, but you won't like the price tag. Even includes a frequency-hopping spectrum analyzer with auto-switching and configured front-end filters.)

The groups that have that gear *usually* have better things to do.

It's not much of a technical problem anymore, more a logistics problem to try to figure out the airport to send LE to.

Not worth the effort. But certainly not hard anymore.
 
Ron Levy said:
Where did I say "exclusively"? I can't find the post where I said that.
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You said "That frequency belongs to two major aircraft manufacturers for their flight test operations". Belongs implies ownership (exclusively) They don't own it. They are authorized users of it along with many others. Yes they get ****ed off if you use it inappropriately, but you'd get upset if I set up a country and western station on the SBY tower frequency as well.
 
Well the flight is over and sounds like all are safe. I am surprised that in 11 pages of conversation no one picked up on this. You mentioned using a sundial for navigation and keeping things simple to honor EdFred. Seems a simple mirror and morse code would have been the appropriate method of communication. Just sayin!!!
 
tmyers said:
Well the flight is over and sounds like all are safe. I am surprised that in 11 pages of conversation no one picked up on this. You mentioned using a sundial for navigation and keeping things simple to honor EdFred. Seems a simple mirror and morse code would have been the appropriate method of communication. Just sayin!!!
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I am sure they used bluetooth messaging on their ipads.
 
tmyers said:
Well the flight is over and sounds like all are safe. I am surprised that in 11 pages of conversation no one picked up on this. You mentioned using a sundial for navigation and keeping things simple to honor EdFred. Seems a simple mirror and morse code would have been the appropriate method of communication. Just sayin!!!
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Sundial navigation is too modern and unreliable. I'm moving to the old desert racing model. Have a friend at my destination light a big tire fire then fly towards the black line in the sky. Same as the magenta line but doesn't require batteries or satellites.:lol:
 
ClimbnSink said:
Sundial navigation is too modern and unreliable. I'm moving to the old desert racing model. Have a friend at my destination light a big tire fire then fly towards the black line in the sky. Same as the magenta line but doesn't require batteries or satellites.:lol:
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:....:lol:.....

Just add the state of California and mix in a small dose of the EPA... And that fire will get you 10-20 in Leavenworth...:hairraise:.........:D
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have done it just not in a controlled environment

3flight91503102.JPG




3flight29172088.JPG


3flight58004972.JPG
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Man. I didn't know Tim's plane could go that slow. Awesome pictures!!
 
Ahahahah. Wasn't really formation flying he was just passing me lol
 
flyingron said:
You said "That frequency belongs to two major aircraft manufacturers for their flight test operations". Belongs implies ownership (exclusively) They don't own it. They are authorized users of it along with many others. Yes they get ****ed off if you use it inappropriately, but you'd get upset if I set up a country and western station on the SBY tower frequency as well.
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Heh. That sounds like a worthwhile improvement for many hours of the day. ;)

SixPapaCharlie said:
Ahahahah. Wasn't really formation flying he was just passing me lol
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Keep telling yourself that. :)
 
I had my pax take pictures with my DSLR.
If I could have flown and used the camera, I could have gotten better shots.
He was unfamiliar with the camera.

At any rate.


10647095_10205200888288714_6043083244107813211_n.jpg


10475927_10205200891168786_4623443111387080434_n.jpg
 
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