bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Guess it never occurred to you that if you don't lie, This stuff never happens to you. Sigh.
What happens to someone else- how is that relevant to you? AFAICT It’s not.
Four pilots indicted
- Thread starter flyingron
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What happens to someone else- how is that relevant to you? AFAICT It’s not.
DaleB
Final Approach
No, but that doesn't stop a guy from feeling like if someone else got away with it, they should be able to also. Starts when you're about 3 years old, some people just never outgrow it.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Yes; finally, in 2010, six years after the illegal Operation Safe Pilot database matches, the agencies took the required legal steps to make similar investigations conform to the provisions of the Privacy Act of 1974 as amended.
It took them a lot longer than their original estimate. In congressional testimony before the aviation subcommittee on July 17, 2007, Nicholas Sabatini, FAA associate administrator for aviation safety stated, "In order to proceed with cross-checking applicants for airman medical certificates against the SSA disability database, or any other database, FAA must first revise the system of records notice for FAA's ‘Aviation Records on Individuals’ to permit disclosure of the records through a routine use. This will require publishing a notice of the revised system of records in the Federal Register, and a period for public comments, before the records may be disclosed, and FAA can begin any cross-checking. This process may take six to twelve months to complete.”
His statement was an admission that the agencies had violated the privacy act during the 2004 Operation Safe Pilot database matches.
So the current batch of violators won't have a way to get out of this based on that particular formality.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
I believe that's the case. The guys who are having problems now should have been paying attention during the Operation Safe Pilot fiasco and its aftermath. My lawsuit was widely covered in the national press.
Bill Weber
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From what I can tell it looks like Chrisman has found a way out. Stan and I were discussing this earlier in the thread.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Here is a small sample of the press reporting after SCOTUS oral arguments and the 2012 decision in my case.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Bill, I'm thinking that the criminal charges were filed first, and certificate revocations may follow after the Pilot's Bill of Rights protocol protections have been exhausted. The Pilot's Bill of Rights was codified by congress after the Operation Safe Pilot fiasco. This is just a guess on my part.
Bill Weber
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You still have to wonder how the medical was granted if he had been receiving VA benefits and was diagnosed with PTSD. Something seems off. Did he dump his VA benefits? Did he somehow magically lose his PTSD diagnosis?
Bill Weber
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Did anyone see any news about this?
Bill Weber
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Stan,
Did you attend the trial? Anyone know what happened?
Did you attend the trial? Anyone know what happened?
Stan Cooper
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According to the Chrisman docket, jury selection is scheduled for September 11 and the trial is supposed to start September 13. I'm not going to be able to make it because of a conflict, but the docket should be updated with whatever happens. There could be a plea bargain at the last minute.
Chrisman Docket said:
Tarheelpilot
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An important thing to understand is someone’s disability rating from the VA doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with their ability to work.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
That may be true, but the charges are that he made false statements in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1001(a)(2) (2 counts):
(i) claimed he did not have and had never had a mental disorder of any sort despite having represented to the VA that he had posttraumatic stress disorder and having received medical disability benefits as a result of that condition.
(ii) claimed that he was not receiving and has never received medical disability benefits despite having received service-related medical disability benefits from the VA since 2011.
Violating 18 U.S.C. § 1001(a)(2) is a felony.
Tarheelpilot
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I know. Wasn’t implying otherwise. At least not intentionally.
Stan Cooper
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I just checked Judge Vince Chhabria's calendar, and it appears Chrisman's trial is off the calendar, but now there is a Motion Hearing for Chrisman in Judge Chhabria's courtroom (San Francisco Federal Court Building, 450 Golden Gate Ave., Courtroom 4, 17th Floor) scheduled for Tuesday, September 24, at 10:30 AM. I may be able to make that.
sourdough44
En-Route
I’m not big on new ‘gun control’ but this talk of ‘data-mining’ reminds me of recent talk of trying to get ahead of some of these deranged shooters recently. Many, almost all of them had serious red flags in their recent history, when buying or during ownership.
Maybe the BATF needs to take notes from the FAA data mining methods?
No, I have no intention of handing over a VZ-58 to that candidate from TX. I also don’t like the disgruntled neighbor down the road having the ability to file a grudge claim against another to facilitate confiscation.
Maybe the BATF needs to take notes from the FAA data mining methods?
No, I have no intention of handing over a VZ-58 to that candidate from TX. I also don’t like the disgruntled neighbor down the road having the ability to file a grudge claim against another to facilitate confiscation.
PeterNSteinmetz
En-Route
Like the FAAs data mining methods can be shown to prevent accidents ?!?
In many ways, the same statistical problems in trying to prevent both phenomena. Rare or very rare events. Low sensitivity and specificity in any available (and likely possible) testing or investigative method. This means you will always have vastly more false positives than true positives whenever you don’t have a very high false negative rate.
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Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to get to this morning's hearing because of a scheduling conflict.
We'll have to see what comes up on the Chrisman docket.
EDIT - I just checked Judge Chhabria's calendar, and there's no mention of the Chrisman hearing scheduled for today, so I'm not sure what's happening.
Calendar for: Judge Vince Chhabria said:
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James331
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You’re more likely to be killed by a cow or insect than a “mass shooter”
You’re more likely to be wrongly killed by a cop than a “terrorist”
What we are allowing the government to do with databases and “zero tolerance” is akin to what you’d get if hitler and a old world Puritan had a love child.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
There have been 313 deaths and 1,209 injuries resulting from mass shootings in the United States since January, 2019 (not even nine months).
How many fatalities from cows, James? I'd love to know the source of your assertion other than just pulling it out of your, um, thin air.
https://www.insider.com/number-of-mass-shootings-in-america-this-year-2019-8
Bill Weber
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Welcome to the world of 'my truth'. If he said it then it must be true!
Interesting that the case disappeared. It's like they just got covered over. Nothing in the press about it.
Interesting that the case disappeared. It's like they just got covered over. Nothing in the press about it.
1RTK1
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James331
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CDC vs Wikipedia listing of mass shootings.
I’d wager you are using the media and politician numbers that are often high, but even so that’s not bad at all!
300 something people out of population of 330,000,000
That’s about the same amount of people wrongly killed by police, and no one will even make a database about that one for some reason
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-americans-do-cops-kill-each-year-480712
Might sound cold, but 300 is a flash in the pan, depending on the politician and the soap box the definition of a “mass shooter” changes quite a bit.
It’s a pain in the ass to dig that stuff back up, but here’s a easy one, doctors.
Medical blunders kill about a QUARTER MILLION per year
And yet we aren’t going all crazy over that and stripping people’s rights and invading their lives over all the killer docs are we?
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/new...rs_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us
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Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Getting back to the four pilots indicted and the Chrisman case specifically, the latest documents filed show that a hearing on Chrisman's motion to suppress evidence is scheduled in Judge Chhabria's courtroom on October 8 at 10:30 AM. I won't be able to attend as I'll be in Albuquerque for the balloon fiesta.
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Bill, it's still very active. I've downloaded Chrisman's motion to suppress and his supporting documents (54 pages!).
benyflyguy
En-Route
That’s a good question I think. So depends on what you think these guys actually did.
1) actually have a serious no fly medical condition?? Maybe nothing yet but put ppl at risk unnecessarily for their own gain.
2) took part of joining the club of scamming the VA medical system to get money for a condition they never truly had?? Then just the tax payers I guess, and discredited the veterans that actually do have these conditions.
I lean towards number 2 I guess. Which is sad but the system has been clearly being abused.
James331
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If the guys were at a major and accident/encorcement free, taking checkrides every 6mo, line checks, flying with a mixed bag of capt/fos, I’d say they have enough time behind the stick without issue that it would be a hard sell to anyone with much common sense that they were a danger.
For scamming the VA, I have two thoughts, both go towards this shouldn’t have gone beyond a simple “pay it back” if that.
1: some of the ex mil folks I know seem to be pushed into getting treated for SOMETHING, ANYTHING, and when that’s the culture you make, and at the tax payers and vets expense, I loose sympathy for waving your finger at them.
2 a doc had to say they had whatever issue, if they didn’t why not make doc take responsibility for his work and he can pay it back?
I’d also expect if these two didn’t have the issue they were diagnosed with, that doc should be in a bit of trouble or retraining right? I’d imagine they’d be looking at overturning all his other diagnosis.
Overall unless they covered up some accident or enforcement history, my main focus of persecution would be the VA or FAA; if these people were trouble free pilots collecting money for a disease that makes them unable to fly, we have a rather large logical error somewhere in the chain.
Also remind me why we don’t teach kids about nullification agin? Oh right...lol
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bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
"I am not certain that the American people are being well served by the current system"
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
The Court denied Chrisman's Motion to Suppress the Evidence at the October 8 hearing.
James331
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Or 3) they had a proper diagnosis but it has nothing to do with their ability to pilot an aircraft.
Bill Weber
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Thanks for keeping us up-to-date, Stan. Do you have an idea what happened in the three other cases? It's hard not to comment on some of the comments here!
Stan Cooper
Pattern Altitude
Bill, as of today they're all going to trial. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Adam Roger Asleson's trial date hasn't yet been set, and is pending a hearing on November 6, 2019, in San Francisco, Courtroom 6, 17th Floor, before Judge Charles R. Breyer.
Nicholas King Beyer's trial is currently scheduled for January 15, 2020, 9:15 AM, in San Francisco, Courtroom 6, 17th Floor before Judge Charles R. Breyer.
Walker Trent Grant's trial is currently scheduled for February 21, 2020, at 8:30 a.m., in Courtroom 5, 17th Floor, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, California, before Judge Edward M. Chen.
Lndwarrior
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Gary
I've spent a bunch of time in that building! Didn't enjoy any of it. Of course I was only there to sort out some building engineering shortcomings. Would not have wanted to be in there for legal reasons!
Bill Weber
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Agree, it will be interesting to see what the end result is. I see that one of the airmen still has a valid Class 1 medical. That I do not understand.
No, we just sue them en masse until we reach the back of their teeth. In fact, practically our entire medical experience in this country is colored by what you cite. The idea that it doesn't affect us just isn't true.