four dead at 46U

But how much of a discount?

I was unable to determine by observation how much of a discount I received after getting my IR. There has been so much year-to-year variation in my quotes due to (so I was told) factors internal to the industry that it completely swamped any perceptible discount. I suppose I could ask my broker how much more I would be paying in a particular year if I didn't have my IR, but I'm also not sure she would be able to tell me either without sending each insurance company two separate pilot information sheets for me, which for obvious reasons, she can't do.

In any case I suspect that the discount is fairly small, probably because IR pilots' increased risk exposure largely cancels out the improved safety due to the training, as others have stated.

My premium stayed the same two years in a row after I bought my plane with 62 hours. First year was horrid, 2nd & 3rd were the same. Finished Instrument training, premium fell by just over 30%. That's enough for me to notice! It has continued to go down since then, maybe another 10% total the last four years.
 
My premium stayed the same two years in a row after I bought my plane with 62 hours. First year was horrid, 2nd & 3rd were the same. Finished Instrument training, premium fell by just over 30%. That's enough for me to notice! It has continued to go down since then, maybe another 10% total the last four years.

Was it the rating or the time in type continuing to climb and the actual value of the aircraft going down?
 
Was it the rating or the time in type continuing to climb and the actual value of the aircraft going down?

The agreed value of the plane didn't change; it's not like car insurance. And I don't think the ~120 hours I flew that year (including instrument training) made that big a difference. May have come close to 500 total by then, maybe not.
 
The agreed value of the plane didn't change; it's not like car insurance. And I don't think the ~120 hours I flew that year (including instrument training) made that big a difference. May have come close to 500 total by then, maybe not.

Fair enough. Reason I asked is that in a multiple pilot environment, we've never seen a change in rates for ratings, but we've seen other unexplainable changes over time. Time in type is the best we can figure out. They're not saying.
 
My premium stayed the same two years in a row after I bought my plane with 62 hours. First year was horrid, 2nd & 3rd were the same. Finished Instrument training, premium fell by just over 30%. That's enough for me to notice! It has continued to go down since then, maybe another 10% total the last four years.
Very possibly your low time had something to do with that, as someone else suggested may be part of the way it works. The rating may make more of a difference in the probability of getting into an accident when the pilot is relatively low time. I had somewhere between 800 and 900 hours when I got my rating. Though not by any means a guarantee, experience tends to lead to safer flying habits anyway. (Or at least, those who make it that far are likelier to have them.)
 
I had a tough experience this past week on a rescue flight; conditions were MVFR at the departure however clearing quickly in my flight path; upon departure I found the ceilings to be a bit lower than reported in light rain, in turn forcing me to scud run at between 800' and 1000' to stay clear of the lower deck. I had checked for obstructions along my flight path knowing the first few miles would be low. 10 minutes in and I turned back with the intention to scrub; the only thing that saved the flight was updated METAR and a hole I found to get up and above the lower deck.

VMC into IMC is serious ****, until you've experienced it no amount of discussion really does it justice. I am not IFR cert'd however instrument able, the biggest problem I have with it is that I shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Here's a photo after I was able to get on top.
 

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@Mopauly: hopefully you were 100% certain of scattered or better conditions at your destination! ;)

It sounds like an instrument rating may be in your future.
 
It was actually sky clear, and I knew it would be good, but getting there was the tricky bits
 
Glad you were able to make the trip safely. I only encountered conditions like that, where going over the top was both advantageous and safe, twice in the 800-odd hours before I did my IR. Both times were to avoid turbulence below the deck, not to complete a mission in the face iffy ceilings early on. The vast majority of times when conditions are MVFR they are also unpredictably changeable, at least in my part of the country. The one time I did press on, based on improving forecasts and encouragement from a briefer, I ended up VFR into IMC and ultimately scud running into my destination in conditions I had no business flying in without an instrument rating.
 
If I hadn't turned back, the entire leg from the KPHL area to the Potomac area would have been one large scud run, something I couldn't forsee doing. The funny thing is I'm not afraid of IMC, I was more concerned that I wasn't supposed to be in it; otherwise I am OK navigating by instrument if I had to, I'm just not supposed to, if that makes sense. What really helped me was Foreflight on my knee, without the visibility I was able to turn around and get back to the airport while maintaining awareness of any obstructions along the way.
 
It makes a lot of sense. If you've had a lot of instrument training, you probably could handle it. But... when it happened to me I was terrified of getting busted or of causing a near mid-air. I was out in the boonies of northern MI, no radar coverage at the altitude I was at (so getting FF was out of the question), sandwiched between lower ceilings and a R-area, and close enough to the FAC of a VOR approach to be concerned. The fear factor was enough to impair my instrument scan and just generally, diminished my performance as a pilot... even though I had been in conditions requiring me to be on the gauges a few times already (VMC instrument conditions) and wasn't afraid of them... when they were legal and expected.
 
It makes a lot of sense. If you've had a lot of instrument training, you probably could handle it. But[] when it happened to me I was terrified of getting busted or of causing a near mid-air. I was out in the boonies of northern MI, no radar coverage at the altitude I was at (so getting FF was out of the question), sandwiched between lower ceilings and a R-area, and close enough to the FAC of a VOR approach to be concerned. The fear factor was enough to impair my instrument scan and just generally, diminished my performance as a pilot[,] even though I had been in conditions requiring me to be on the gauges a few times already (VMC instrument conditions) and wasn't afraid of them[,] when they were legal and expected.

If you're able to fly by reference to instruments, the main reason to be afraid of unauthorized IMC is that you can't see and avoid other traffic, and they likewise can't see you. It's way safer if VFR-into-IMC pilots 'fess up and get ATC separation services. But sadly, some pilots would rather endanger their own lives and others' than risk getting a fine or suspension.
 
Hmm, it seems like people assume IMC = clouds.

You can get IMC from haze, smog, dust, or smoke as well. Wildfires in particular can create some for hundreds of miles downwind in a bad case.
 
Any updates on this accident? I agree with the general consensus that this was probably a VFR-n-IMC kinda deal, but there's always the possibility that something else went wrong. I also agree with the other posters in saying that VFR into IMC is serious business, and it has a proven track record of killing unprepared pilots. I was fortunate to get some actual IMC time in the course of getting my IR, and I'm glad I had those experiences. Wearing Foggles doesn't really prepare you entirely for what it's like the first time you follow an ILS to minimums when it actually matters.
 
Foggles are good for practicing procedures, but they don't prepare you for actual IMC. One of my friends used to put in his foggles when he encountered actual, even after his checkride. (I think he outgrew that after a while.)

But VFR into IMC is serious business, and the 3 hours' practice for your PPL does not prepare you for it. I did manage to make a level, standard rate 180 the one time I hit it; began serious instrument training the next week.
 
If you're able to fly by reference to instruments, the main reason to be afraid of unauthorized IMC is that you can't see and avoid other traffic, and they likewise can't see you. It's way safer if VFR-into-IMC pilots 'fess up and get ATC separation services. But sadly, some pilots would rather endanger their own lives and others' than risk getting a fine or suspension.

Well, stop making the act of fessin' up a punitive outcome, and presto, problem solved, safety increased. But we're petty, we need metrics and speeding tickets to validate our position. So people then behave with the rational incentives they're confronted with.
 
If you're able to fly by reference to instruments, the main reason to be afraid of unauthorized IMC is that you can't see and avoid other traffic, and they likewise can't see you. It's way safer if VFR-into-IMC pilots 'fess up and get ATC separation services. But sadly, some pilots would rather endanger their own lives and others' than risk getting a fine or suspension.
I agree - but it's not always possible to do so, at least not without compounding the problem, as my case illustrates. I was down to about 2500 MSL, and the lowest Minneapolis Center could see you in that area (back then - coverage goes much lower today) was about 5000. To get radar services, I'd have to have climbed 2500 feet, likely through solid IMC, in an area where I was already afraid of traffic I couldn't see. So I descended instead until I was just below the bases at about 1000 AGL. I still think that was my safest option under the circumstances.
 
From a friend that lives on the Alpine airport. Heard a plane take of around 3AM or so. Weather was low overcast and evidently the group had been partying in a bar all night however the pilot had not been drinking. Low time VFR pilot, pitch black night with a low overcast, gethomeitis makes for a bad outcome. The dumbass took four lives and left 7 orphans.
 
From a friend that lives on the Alpine airport. Heard a plane take of[f] around 3AM or so. Weather was low overcast and evidently the group had been partying in a bar all night[;] however the pilot had not been drinking.
Is it known whether the plane your friend heard taking off was the same one that crashed?
 
I agree - but it's not always possible to do so, at least not without compounding the problem, as my case illustrates. I was down to about 2500 MSL, and the lowest Minneapolis Center could see you in that area (back then - coverage goes much lower today) was about 5000. To get radar services, I'd have to have climbed 2500 feet, likely through solid IMC, in an area where I was already afraid of traffic I couldn't see. So I descended instead until I was just below the bases at about 1000 AGL. I still think that was my safest option under the circumstances.
I agree, but talking to ATC could still be important in situations like that. Even in areas that lack radar coverage, ATC can separate planes by using their anticipated positions.
 
Well, stop making the act of fessin' up a punitive outcome, and presto, problem solved, safety increased. But we're petty, we need metrics and speeding tickets to validate our position. So people then behave with the rational incentives they're confronted with.
I'd guess there's little or no punishment typically involved (especially if an ASRS report is filed). Even remedial training, when mandated, is not particularly punitive.

But blanket guaranteed amnesty for VFR-into-IMC would sharply increase the rate of such incursions, and presto, safety would plummet.
 
I agree, but talking to ATC could still be important in situations like that. Even in areas that lack radar coverage, ATC can separate planes by using their anticipated positions.
As I recall, even communications with ZMP weren't possible at that altitude back then. In all honesty, though, I didn't try; I was much too busy with Aviating and Navigating at that point. I was especially concerned about a tall tower that was charted in the area and wanted to be sure to give it a wide berth. (As it turns out I never saw it, which was somewhat concerning because I should have been able to if I'd been where I thought I was.)
 
But blanket guaranteed amnesty for VFR-into-IMC would sharply increase the rate of such incursions, and presto, safety would plummet.
How about blanket amnesty for *unintentional* VFR-into-IMC? In any case, I think the worst anyone could expect in a case like that is a 709 ride. Absent aggravating factors, I doubt if anyone who accidentally blundered into the clouds would be likely to face certificate action.
 
It makes a lot of sense. If you've had a lot of instrument training, you probably could handle it. But... when it happened to me I was terrified of getting busted or of causing a near mid-air. I was out in the boonies of northern MI, no radar coverage at the altitude I was at (so getting FF was out of the question), sandwiched between lower ceilings and a R-area, and close enough to the FAC of a VOR approach to be concerned. The fear factor was enough to impair my instrument scan and just generally, diminished my performance as a pilot... even though I had been in conditions requiring me to be on the gauges a few times already (VMC instrument conditions) and wasn't afraid of them... when they were legal and expected.

I 100% agree on all points; the entire time I was tuned into PHL approach listening in the background. There is no question it impairs you a bit and requires extra focus to stay cool.
 
How about blanket amnesty for *unintentional* VFR-into-IMC? In any case, I think the worst anyone could expect in a case like that is a 709 ride. Absent aggravating factors, I doubt if anyone who accidentally blundered into the clouds would be likely to face certificate action.
I don't see why unintentional VFR-into-IMC should be treated differently than any other unintentional infraction where ATC communication could be helpful. And as you point out, most unintended violations are treated nonpunitively anyway, especially if an ASRS report is filed. But some pilots promote an unrealistically paranoid, adversarial view of the FAA, which scares some pilots away from ATC in situations like this, undermining safety.
 
I don't see why unintentional VFR-into-IMC should be treated differently than any other unintentional infraction where ATC communication could be helpful. And as you point out, most unintended violations are treated nonpunitively anyway, especially if an ASRS report is filed. But some pilots promote an unrealistically paranoid, adversarial view of the FAA, which scares some pilots away from ATC in situations like this, undermining safety.
I never intended to imply that other unintentional infractions should be dealt with punitively, and as you point out, most aren't. (I'm not sure the ASRS report is usually necessary to avoid certificate action either, though of course it can't hurt.) The reason why I made a point of saying "unintentional" is that, as we all know, there are scofflaws who fly VFR into IMC quite intentionally, setting the A/P and cheerfully cruising through layers without bothering with a rating or an IFR clearance. On them, I would crack down mercilessly whenever possible. :mad:
 
I bought my Comanche (260hp, retract, complex) when I had just 85 hours TT. I paid close to $4k for insurance the first year. I got my IR immediately and my insurance dropped by half the very next year. Has continued down to $1200.00/yr. and have just over !,000 hrs TT, now, since 2008.


From a friend that lives on the Alpine airport. Heard a plane take of around 3AM or so. Weather was low overcast and evidently the group had been partying in a bar all night however the pilot had not been drinking. Low time VFR pilot, pitch black night with a low overcast, gethomeitis makes for a bad outcome. The dumbass took four lives and left 7 orphans.

+1 on your last statement.....:mad:
 
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