Ford v Ferrari

SoonerAviator said:
Eh, I suppose it's cool in the aspect of "I'm driving the actual car", but honestly for me, I don't derive much satisfaction from that. If the replica is 98% accurate to the original as far as design/power/handling, then it's close enough for me. It's like Ted's FFR Cobra where the kit cars can be made better than the originals ever were and be driven without fear of destroying a six-figure historical artifact.
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I'd love to drive one of the original ones, but at the same time you can't really romp on it like a good quality replica. I read an interview with Mario Andretti where he said he had no interest in vintage racing because you weren't supposed to push the cars, basically nothing more than a spirited drive at most. Compare that with a good quality replica and you can really do "7,000+ GO LIKE HELL" (those who've seen FvF will get the reference).

Would I drive a priceless original like that if I could? Absolutely. Would I own one if I could afford it? Definitely. But I'm happy with the replicas provided they're good ones.

What I don't want is something like a Ferrari replica with an LS engine.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
How would you like to drive one, that is the real race car not a replica? I have a friend who works for an off shoot of Jaguar in England. One day he got a phone call to come out to the test track. When he got there sitting on the ramp was a factory team D Jaguar, and not just any one but the one that one Le Mans,think it may have been in "55. They said, "Happy Birthday, you can take it for a few laps and please don't bend it its worth more than a Spitfire.
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Honestly, no, I think it would be a disappointment. In the 1966 24 Hours of Daytona, Ken Miles put the #98 Ford Mk II on the pole at a time of 1:57.8. For comparison to today, last year's pole winning DPi car was in the 1:33s. that with a chicane added in 1984 that added approximately 3 seconds to the lap time, so the current Weathertech cars are some 28 seconds a lap faster. At that same Daytona race weekend, a Porsche Cayman GT4 racing in the Pilot Cup series qualified at 1:53.8, again on a track that is now 3 seconds slower than in 1966. This is a lightly modified street car running on street legal radial rubber, and it's faster. I do believe you could take a bone stock 911 GT3 RS, or a Corvette Z06 and be faster. You're also driving a car with better handling, vastly better brakes, and more power, but more weight as well. The new cars drive so well I don't find myself longing for the past.
 
FormerHangie said:
Honestly, no, I think it would be a disappointment. In the 1966 24 Hours of Daytona, Ken Miles put the #98 Ford Mk II on the pole at a time of 1:57.8. For comparison to today, last year's pole winning DPi car was in the 1:33s. that with a chicane added in 1984 that added approximately 3 seconds to the lap time, so the current Weathertech cars are some 28 seconds a lap faster. At that same Daytona race weekend, a Porsche Cayman GT4 racing in the Pilot Cup series qualified at 1:53.8, again on a track that is now 3 seconds slower than in 1966. This is a lightly modified street car running on street legal radial rubber, and it's faster. I do believe you could take a bone stock 911 GT3 RS, or a Corvette Z06 and be faster. You're also driving a car with better handling, vastly better brakes, and more power, but more weight as well. The new cars drive so well I don't find myself longing for the past.
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How much of this is tires alone? Tires have advanced so much, it would be fun to see what a GT40 would do on modern rubber. (Although it is possible the extra stick might tie the chassis up into knots)
 
Bill Jennings said:
How much of this is tires alone? Tires have advanced so much, it would be fun to see what a GT40 would do on modern rubber. (Although it is possible the extra stick might tie the chassis up into knots)
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I'm sure it's some, but probably the biggest change is in the amount of braking available. Much of what Mark Donohue had to say about the car was how hard it was to get it slowed, and how quickly the rotors got destroyed. Those super high performance cars I mentioned use tires that are both wider and bigger in diameter, so you can get more rotor inside of them.
 
FormerHangie said:
I'm sure it's some, but probably the biggest change is in the amount of braking available. Much of what Mark Donohue had to say about the car was how hard it was to get it slowed, and how quickly the rotors got destroyed. Those super high performance cars I mentioned use tires that are both wider and bigger in diameter, so you can get more rotor inside of them.
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Brake technology has also improved hugely. Carbon fiber wasn’t a thing then, now there’s huge carbon fiber brake rotors going on these cars.

But to say it would be a disappointment, I’m not sure I’d agree there. Yes the modern stuff vastly outperforms the old, but I can’t imagine a GT40 Mk2 having less soul than a Porsche today. In fact I’m certain it has much more.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Brake technology has also improved hugely. Carbon fiber wasn’t a thing then, now there’s huge carbon fiber brake rotors going on these cars.

But to say it would be a disappointment, I’m not sure I’d agree there. Yes the modern stuff vastly outperforms the old, but I can’t imagine a GT40 Mk2 having less soul than a Porsche today. In fact I’m certain it has much more.
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I should probably note that I'm still high from driving that 911 GT3 last month.

One of the things you'll find out when you get out on the racetrack is that no matter how hard you try, you will never get enough laps in. Even if you abandon everything else in your life other than your family and track driving, you will never get enough laps in to where you'll feel like you can get everything out of the car. That's where driving a modern car comes in. Everyone thinks they want to do everything for themselves, but those driver aids are useful for those of us who only occasionally get on the track, and that is most of us. I know what pure unassisted driving is like, I have more than 30 race weekends in a Formula Ford, with half turn lock to lock unassisted steering, unassisted brakes, no fenders, no windshield, no electrical system, slick tires. I've been there, but danm, that GT3 has got it all going on. It's Superman's cape. I can't speak to what a GT Mk2 replica is like, I have no access to one and probably never will, but I can't see it being as good, there's 50 years of progress left out.

Anyone else wants to find out, the Xtreme Xperience folks are having their annual sale now and for about $275 you can find out what I'm talking about. I'm not going back next year because I think my daughter and I are going to start in on our skydiving A licenses, but I will be thinking about that GT3 all winter long.
 
FormerHangie said:
. . . I know what pure unassisted driving is like, I have more than 30 race weekends in a Formula Ford, with half turn lock to lock unassisted steering, unassisted brakes, no fenders, no windshield, no electrical system, slick tires. I've been there, but danm, that GT3 has got it all going on. It's Superman's cape. I can't speak to what a GT Mk2 replica is like, I have no access to one and probably never will, but I can't see it being as good, there's 50 years of progress left out . . .
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Nothing like unassisted driving to absolutely wear you out, body and mind. Fingers/wrists/forearms/back/etc. all ache afterwards as you fight every little undulation and turn in the track. Even just getting power steering is a godsend to fight physical fatigue, much less the fancier assistance methods like TC and stability-control.
 
FormerHangie said:
I should probably note that I'm still high from driving that 911 GT3 last month.

One of the things you'll find out when you get out on the racetrack is that no matter how hard you try, you will never get enough laps in. Even if you abandon everything else in your life other than your family and track driving, you will never get enough laps in to where you'll feel like you can get everything out of the car. That's where driving a modern car comes in. Everyone thinks they want to do everything for themselves, but those driver aids are useful for those of us who only occasionally get on the track, and that is most of us. I know what pure unassisted driving is like, I have more than 30 race weekends in a Formula Ford, with half turn lock to lock unassisted steering, unassisted brakes, no fenders, no windshield, no electrical system, slick tires. I've been there, but danm, that GT3 has got it all going on. It's Superman's cape. I can't speak to what a GT Mk2 replica is like, I have no access to one and probably never will, but I can't see it being as good, there's 50 years of progress left out.

Anyone else wants to find out, the Xtreme Xperience folks are having their annual sale now and for about $275 you can find out what I'm talking about. I'm not going back next year because I think my daughter and I are going to start in on our skydiving A licenses, but I will be thinking about that GT3 all winter long.
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Your points are certainly valid. Like with a lot of things, what you want out of a vehicle depends on what you're doing with it. I do agree that I'll never get enough laps in to truly push the Cobra as far as it can be pushed.

But as I think everyone on here knows, when you look at the balance of man vs. machine in any activity, I tend to like less of the machine interaction. Remember, I hand fly the MU-2 10 hours in a day.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Your points are certainly valid. Like with a lot of things, what you want out of a vehicle depends on what you're doing with it. I do agree that I'll never get enough laps in to truly push the Cobra as far as it can be pushed.

But as I think everyone on here knows, when you look at the balance of man vs. machine in any activity, I tend to like less of the machine interaction. Remember, I hand fly the MU-2 10 hours in a day.
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Kind of depends on the goal, too. Are you trying to wring out those last few seconds to get the fastest time you can around a track, or are you just happy pushing the old tech as far as you can? The "driver assistance" tech (as well as improvements in braking/tires/suspension) makes it easier to go faster and remain in control. However, if the goal is just to take old tech and go as fast as you can where the visceral is worth more than the lap time, then the driver's assistance features are less desirable. Everyone has their own balance of how much comfort/assistance they desire, and some prefer to race at both ends of the spectrum by using different cars.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
Kind of depends on the goal, too. Are you trying to wring out those last few seconds to get the fastest time you can around a track, or are you just happy pushing the old tech as far as you can? The "driver assistance" tech (as well as improvements in braking/tires/suspension) makes it easier to faster and remain in control. However, if the goal is just to take old tech and go as fast as you can where the visceral is worth more than the lap time, then the driver's assistance features are less desirable. Everyone has their own balance of how much comfort/assistance they desire, and some prefer to race at both ends of the spectrum by using different cars.
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Exactly what I was getting at, but you worded it better. I'm out to have fun and enjoy the ride. I'd rather have the smile of pushing old tech than having traction control kick in.
 
I took my 12 YO girl, she loved it. She’s a bit of a gearhead though.
 
FormerHangie said:
I'm sure it's some, but probably the biggest change is in the amount of braking available. Much of what Mark Donohue had to say about the car was how hard it was to get it slowed, and how quickly the rotors got destroyed. Those super high performance cars I mentioned use tires that are both wider and bigger in diameter, so you can get more rotor inside of them.
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Good point. Years ago, I had a chance to drive a Formula Atlantic at a Buttonwillow test session, and what struck me was the aero downforce-aided capability of the braking...and that fact that on initial braking off the straightaway, you can stand on the brakes as hard as you can physically muster, but then lighten the pressure as the car slows and downforce lessens to avoid lock-up.

Try that in a '66 GT40 Mk II and you'd produce clouds of smoke and flat-spotted tires.
 
Tell it, brother! Amen! Sheesh - aero downforce formula cars. Just could never wrap my head around this and never drove one successfully.
Pick a hypothetical corner:
80mph - no problem, mechanical grip will get you around.
100mph - no problem, aero grip and downforce will get you around, no problem.
90mph? You're going off track.
I did better in my Club Formula Ford or Mazdas. Or, perhaps, 'less badly.'
 
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