(for us old guys) Your risk of a *cardiac event

I just passed a standard Bruce protocol and hit stage 5, 15 Mets,I think that’s pretty decent. My cardio says exercise tolerance is a big indicator of cardiovascular health.
 
I just passed a standard Bruce protocol and hit stage 5, 15 Mets,I think that’s pretty decent. My cardio says exercise tolerance is a big indicator of cardiovascular health.
'Motorbiking keeps one young, until you’re a statistic (don’t take offense, I ride too :cool: ).
 
Addressed, kinda-sorta, by Diabetes YES/NO.
There is a trend of late to diagnose DM solely on basis of HgbA1C - not sure I agree with this approach.

Don't get me started. It's cheating. A quick blood draw instead of taking a whole day to accurately measure your hourly response to a glucose challenge. Is my sugar 115 around the clock? Or is my sugar 80 all night long and half the day and 220 for six hours after I pig out? BIG DIFFERENCE.

A1c is based on the average person. They're taking a cheaper easier shortcut that uses aggregate statistics to draw inferences about me as an individual. They figure they'll do more good for more numbers of people in general that way.

But diabetes is about how your body responds with insulin over time to an influx of sugar. The A1c tells you nothing about how much or little sugar I ate, when I ate it, and how did my body respond to it? Was it able to put out lots of insulin quickly or not? Too much with a reactive hypoglycemia? DUNNO!! A1c don't tell you any of that.
 
ALL that we really know is that if you can do what Bill Jennings did, the risk of a Coronary event in the next 5 years is <1%.
 
Be close to a hospital. Quote: "Troponin is released into the bloodstream 2 to 6 hours after heart cell damage, and blood levels peak in 12 to 26 hours. Elevated levels of troponin are regarded as a more reliable indicator of heart muscle damage than elevated creatine kinase levels."
 
If only I knew what "I just passed a standard Bruce protocol and hit stage 5, 15 Mets" meant.
Stage 5 is 12 to 15 minutes. I forget the grade, but the pace is fast enough that you're pretty much running.

I've done a half minute or so over 13, once. It's a good workout. I can still go over 12, but I usually stop as soon as my (0.9(220 - age)) target HR is reached, on the advice of Bruce and others that going beyond what the FAA requires is looking for trouble.
 
The A1c tells you nothing about how much or little sugar I ate, when I ate it, and how did my body respond to it?

That's technically true, but then exactly what you ate and how you respond isn't quite the whole story. What A1C does tell you is the average blood glucose your body had to deal with in the past 3 months and that is more indicative of a problem than a 24 hour monitored period. You can drive your A1C up by eating an excessively poor diet, but that is because the poor diet increases blood glucose levels (BGL). There are many other mechanism in place which can mean that someone is losing control of the BGL regulation mechanism. A1C is a great indicator of that.

If you are were 80 for 18 hours out of the day and 220 for 6 hours...and obviously it doesn't jump from one to the next...your average BGL should be around 115 and your A1C should register around 5.6. You can also drive it up through other things - I find that excessive stress and probably caffeinated drinks drive mine up. When I destress and drink water, my morning BGL can be as low as 110 or as high as 150 when things are stressful and I'm drinking coffee and soda. I'm also suspicious that something I'll call "liver competition" plays a role - that is, if I put a lot of things into my body that I force my liver to deal with, it takes away some of the capacity for my liver to help regulate high BGL. But I have no proof and I've never heard of a study about this, its just an observation of how I react.

The concern is that over a long time high BGL eventually causes certain predictable damage patterns, which include pancreas damage/lost of insulin control, atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries), kidney disease and loss of vision...plus a lot more. But it takes years, with the amount of time depending on the level and duration of high BGL. So, A1C is giving a truer picture than a short monitoring period.
 
So, A1C is giving a truer picture than a short monitoring period.

True for people who do nothing but go see their doctor every once in a while. If you monitor your sugar daily on your own, you've got a good idea what the average is and don't need an A1c to tell you anything you don't already know. For that matter you can do your own GTT. But I'll grant you most people don't do that and as a screening tool I concede you'll probably get more people to get it done than to bother with a doctor administered GTT.

I don't dispute that the way we do it now is better than a generation ago, when you wait for signs and symptoms to appear before undergoing the bothersome test (GTT) for diabetes. The A1c is good as a general screening tool. My complaint is that it should not be used as the sole tool to make the diagnosis which is why I posted in agreement with wrbix in the first place. At least not when it's at the lower end of the range.

Your theory about the liver is very interesting. I might have to include that in my own self observation about what affects my BG. I agree things like stress and caffeine also have an impact but for me the evidence is overwhelming: my carb addiction drives it up; eating ultra low carb keeps it down and this accounts for probably 99% of the effect - all other factors are minor if any. No question the way for me to avoid diabetic tissue damage is to severely restrict consumption of non-fibrous carbs.
 
But diabetes is about how your body responds with insulin over time to an influx of sugar. The A1c tells you nothing about how much or little sugar I ate, when I ate it, and how did my body respond to it? Was it able to put out lots of insulin quickly or not? Too much with a reactive hypoglycemia? DUNNO!! A1c don't tell you any of that.

How much sugar you ate does not have any bearing on whether you are a diabetic. HgA1C measures the effect of your sugar levels on your body. It measures glucose levels integrated over an extended period of time. It's a much better representation of the diabetes question than any point measurement like a fasting glucose or a challenge test.
 
'Motorbiking keeps one young, until you’re a statistic (don’t take offense, I ride too :cool: ).
I think it would be more accurate to say that "motorbiking keeps the average age of participantslower".
 
How much sugar you ate does not have any bearing on whether you are a diabetic.

Keep in mind that Type II DM is just a diagnosis of high blood sugar. If you were to eat a spoonful of sugar ever 30 minutes while you were awake, I assure you that you would have a very high blood sugar AND be diabetic. The fact that you can recover from it by stopping the eating isn't part of the diagnosis, it's the high BGL.
 
I'm also suspicious that something I'll call "liver competition" plays a role - that is, if I put a lot of things into my body that I force my liver to deal with, it takes away some of the capacity for my liver to help regulate high BGL. But I have no proof and I've never heard of a study about this, its just an observation of how I react.

Your liver plays a role in the control of blood sugar levels. It has the capability to store carbs in the form of glycogen. It is not so much a question of competition than a question how full your glycogen storage is. If you come off a fasting period and your glycogen stores are low, your liver will take up glucose from the blood help reducing your levels.
 
If only I knew what "I just passed a standard Bruce protocol and hit stage 5, 15 Mets" meant.

SMJ-57-347-g008.jpg


This is a treadmill test, you start at 1.7mph on a 10% grade. At the end of three minutes, you progress to stage 2, end of 6 stage 3, etc. Stage 5 is 5.5mph on an 18% grade. Sounds easy, but by then I was pretty well gassed. I hit my target heart rate at 13m45s, and had them stop the test. Below is a chart comparing activities to MET load.

metscalories.jpg
 
How much sugar you ate does not have any bearing on whether you are a diabetic.

I didn't say it did. I thought I said it's about how your body responds to sugar (insulin release for one). But to measure your body's response, you have to know how much sugar you ate.

HgA1C measures the effect of your sugar levels on your body. It measures glucose levels integrated over an extended period of time. It's a much better representation of the diabetes question than any point measurement like a fasting glucose or a challenge test.

Once again - yes of course it's better than any one point (snapshot). I never said it wasn't. But it's not better than many snapshots over time. It's worse, because it's averaging everything out rather than giving you a complete data set.

The A1C cannot differentiate whether you ate a million pounds of sugar and your pancreas put out a million pounds of insulin to keep your BG at x, or you ate very little sugar and your pancreas barely kept up with it to keep your BG at the same x.

That same x might have the same effect on your tissues (although I submit it doesn't) but those two pictures are not equal. The load on your pancreas (liver and everything else) is vastly different between the two.

The A1C assumes that the total area under the curve is what matters (or over the curve if you will, over whatever BG is not damaging). Twice the amount of time spent at half as much over a safe BG is equal according to this assumption. I say: Not true! Studies show that the level at which tissue damage begins to occur is 140 mg/dl. It matters whether you keep your blood sugar below that number all the time, or whether you have peaks during the day where it stays above 140. Balancing those peaks with low levels does not mitigate the damage done by the peaks. This is why it's important to have multiple data points over 24 hours and over many days. This gives you a much more accurate picture of whether you're being damaged by glucose than an average over the same time frame.

Again I stress this issue occurs only close to the borderline for a diagnosis. A very high A1C no question you're diabetic and being damaged, a very low A1C it would be extremely difficult or impossible to be having high BG peaks counteracted by enough hypoglycemia to get a low a1c.

I have no issue using A1C alone to diagnose when the doctor catches you walking around with 600 mg/dL. I do have a problem giving the diagnosis at 6.5 to everyone without further investigation of that individual.

But I'm not saying don't treat the person who is 6.5; I think PRE-diabetes should be treated the same as diabetes; the goal should not only be to get your average down, but also to reduce peaks, and focusing on A1C just completely blinds people to their peaks.

When a patient comes to the doctor at 6.3 that doctor should order that patient to buy a test kit and do daily fasting and post prandial testing and that patient should be scared to death if they see 150 on the glucose meter. But they should not receive the diabetes code in their record, unless confirmed by a GTT. Conversely at 6.5 the doctor should advise the exact same thing, AND do further testing to see whether the patient actually meets a GTT criteria before hanging them with the hard diagnosis.

I realize I'm probably in a tiny minority of people who don't want a diagnosis code just to pay for test kits and strips. Most patients, "Sure! Code me so my insurance will pay!" And doctors are happy to comply so I realize I'm just beating my head against a brick wall here. But us pilot people really do care about such things, at least before BasicMed.
 
This is why it's important to have multiple data points over 24 hours and over many days. This gives you a much more accurate picture of whether you're being damaged by glucose than an average over the same time frame.
Unless you’re testing every hour or more, you aren’t going to get a good picture of what’s going on. Snapshots after meals don’t tell you a whole lot.
 
I didn't say it did. I thought I said it's about how your body responds to sugar (insulin release for one). But to measure your body's response, you have to know how much sugar you ate.



Once again - yes of course it's better than any one point (snapshot). I never said it wasn't. But it's not better than many snapshots over time. It's worse, because it's averaging everything out rather than giving you a complete data set.

The A1C cannot differentiate whether you ate a million pounds of sugar and your pancreas put out a million pounds of insulin to keep your BG at x, or you ate very little sugar and your pancreas barely kept up with it to keep your BG at the same x.

That same x might have the same effect on your tissues (although I submit it doesn't) but those two pictures are not equal. The load on your pancreas (liver and everything else) is vastly different between the two.

The A1C assumes that the total area under the curve is what matters (or over the curve if you will, over whatever BG is not damaging). Twice the amount of time spent at half as much over a safe BG is equal according to this assumption. I say: Not true! Studies show that the level at which tissue damage begins to occur is 140 mg/dl. It matters whether you keep your blood sugar below that number all the time, or whether you have peaks during the day where it stays above 140. Balancing those peaks with low levels does not mitigate the damage done by the peaks. This is why it's important to have multiple data points over 24 hours and over many days. This gives you a much more accurate picture of whether you're being damaged by glucose than an average over the same time frame.

Again I stress this issue occurs only close to the borderline for a diagnosis. A very high A1C no question you're diabetic and being damaged, a very low A1C it would be extremely difficult or impossible to be having high BG peaks counteracted by enough hypoglycemia to get a low a1c.

I have no issue using A1C alone to diagnose when the doctor catches you walking around with 600 mg/dL. I do have a problem giving the diagnosis at 6.5 to everyone without further investigation of that individual.

But I'm not saying don't treat the person who is 6.5; I think PRE-diabetes should be treated the same as diabetes; the goal should not only be to get your average down, but also to reduce peaks, and focusing on A1C just completely blinds people to their peaks.

When a patient comes to the doctor at 6.3 that doctor should order that patient to buy a test kit and do daily fasting and post prandial testing and that patient should be scared to death if they see 150 on the glucose meter. But they should not receive the diabetes code in their record, unless confirmed by a GTT. Conversely at 6.5 the doctor should advise the exact same thing, AND do further testing to see whether the patient actually meets a GTT criteria before hanging them with the hard diagnosis.

I realize I'm probably in a tiny minority of people who don't want a diagnosis code just to pay for test kits and strips. Most patients, "Sure! Code me so my insurance will pay!" And doctors are happy to comply so I realize I'm just beating my head against a brick wall here. But us pilot people really do care about such things, at least before BasicMed.

A1c has been validated as predictor of diabetes risk and cardiovascular complications in both cross sectional and prospective studies. Every 1 point in A1c comes with an increased risk of CV disease I'm the range of 18-20%.
In someone with good glucose control, most of the A1c elevation is the result of daytime post prandial glucose excursions. Your elevated A1c tells you something and spot measurements that fit your conviction 'that you don't have diabetes' won't make the glycosylated proteins and endothelial cell dysfunction in your body go away.
 
So, diet.
Easy to say, 'avoid sugar, carbs'.
How?
Therein lies the big problem.
Many people have decades of their body being accustomed to consuming those foods.
How to retrain your body to accept this change?
Plus, over 3/4 of the foods out there have carbs as a major component.
 
My AME laughs at the FAA requirements for my SI. My heart has been photographed, examined, is regularly monitored, and checks out very well. My cardiac health is a known entity. The rest of the population? Most have no idea what condition their hearts are in. Modern medicine is wonderful. Modern regulations? Not so much.
 
The FAA had also stipulated that this was to be a nuclear stress, so I was nuclear perfusion scanned both before and after the stress exercise. From what I've learned it gives the best non-invasive picture of blood flow to and potential damage in the heart.

http://www.theheartcarecenter.com/northwest-houston-nuclear-stress-test.html
Well - that's actually controversial. If it's what the FAA asked for then you have no choice, but my cardiologist in Detroit was convinced that a stress echocardiogram is only marginally less sensitive, and significantly more specific than the nuclear test - less chance of false positive. I sent the FAA 2 or 3 stress echoes (or rather, presented them to my AME - not sure what he did with them) and they never came back with a request for a nuclear test - but they were not done specifically for FAA. The one time the FAA asked for a nuclear test that is what I had done... but I do not like to do them because the radiation exposure is NOT insignificant. It is typically on the order of 10 milliSieverts, which is comparable to a CT scan or a coronary angiogram via catheterization.
 
If it's what the FAA asked for then you have no choice,

Yes, after reviewing the original package they came back and requested the nuc stress. Long road, but now I have the piece of paper and can go BM going forward. Flight review scheduled for Saturday, now to see if I remember how to fly!
 
Yes, after reviewing the original package they came back and requested the nuc stress. Long road, but now I have the piece of paper and can go BM going forward. Flight review scheduled for Saturday, now to see if I remember how to fly!

Dazzle the CFI with brilliance, or bullshet. whichever is applicable Bill! You'll do fine. :thumbsup:
 
Did you have to train for that? How long?
And.....what do you have to do to keep in shape now?
Plus what further tests might the FAA require in subsequent years?
 
Did you have to train for that? How long?
And.....what do you have to do to keep in shape now?
Plus what further tests might the FAA require in subsequent years?
  • No specific training, just go to the hospital and run. I believe I had to fast prior, no eating past midnight, but I can't remember for sure.
  • As for keeping in shape, I lift at the gym M/W/F, jog T/TH, and try to get in a good bicycle ride over the weekend.
  • The good news is, I can go BM from here on, just needed the one time cardiac SI
 
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So, diet.
Easy to say, 'avoid sugar, carbs'.
How?
Therein lies the big problem.
Many people have decades of their body being accustomed to consuming those foods.
How to retrain your body to accept this change?
Plus, over 3/4 of the foods out there have carbs as a major component.

I gave up my addiction to pizza, pasta and bread 25lbs ago. No more soda, no starch with meals, smaller portion sizes. No more late night raids of the chocolate cabinet. No eating of leftovers from the kids.
 
  • No specific training, just go to the hospital and run. I believe I had to fast prior, no eating past midnight, but I can't remember for sure.
  • As for keeping in shape, I lift at the gym M/W/F, jog T/TH, and try to get in a good bicycel ride over the weekend.
  • The good news is, I can go BM from here on, just needed the one time cardiac SI

Were you out of shape when your cardiac event happened?
 
Were you out of shape when your cardiac event happened?

Absolutly not. At that time I was running 5 days/week, was well centered in the healthy weight zone, and was mostly vegetarian. The deal was, my arteries were and remain clean, I just had the bad luck of inheriting a bad aortic valve. By the time they did the cath it was grade 4+ insufficiency, hence having to undergo AVR surgery.

And believe me I was totally ****ED when I got that diagnosis. What? You must have the wrong guy! I've done everything right, exercise, avoid red meat, low cholesterol, etc, and I have to have open heart surgery? YGBSM!

Yeah, I was damn ****ed.
 
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