For those that fly in IMC

Challenged

Challenged

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Challenged
I have about 25 hours of Instrument training under my belt now, but I've been in no real hurry to finish up. So...I was flying yesterday evening and it was really hazy with some scattered showers around as well, so visibility wasn't very good. It had me wondering if flying in solid IMC is somehow mentally easier than flying in and out of IMC constantly. Thoughts?
 
Challenged said:
I have about 25 hours of Instrument training under my belt now, but I've been in no real hurry to finish up. So...I was flying yesterday evening and it was really hazy with some scattered showers around as well, so visibility wasn't very good. It had me wondering if flying in solid IMC is somehow mentally easier than flying in and out of IMC constantly. Thoughts?
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Depends on the person. Some people say they have issues going in and out of IMC, but I've never noticed what other people are talking about when I'm in and out. But I also transition to instruments before going into IMC.
 
Challenged said:
I have about 25 hours of Instrument training under my belt now, but I've been in no real hurry to finish up. So...I was flying yesterday evening and it was really hazy with some scattered showers around as well, so visibility wasn't very good. It had me wondering if flying in solid IMC is somehow mentally easier than flying in and out of IMC constantly. Thoughts?
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For me they're about the same.

Be sure to scan for nearby traffic when you emerge from a cloud!
 
There's no reason it should be any more difficult short of being distracted and giving up a good instrument scan. That's an issue I do periodically see with newer instrument students. I had one student who flew through a scattered layer at night, strobes on, he got distracted by the strobes "freezing" the props and by the time he looked back inside he was all confused and asked "why are we turning?" :rolleyes2:
 
I really have no issues going in and out of clouds. If anything, an occasional transition out of a cloud gives you a visual reference that makes it easier to fly straight and level. Not that you want to cease with your instrument scan.
 
For me it's not an issue of IMC vs. VMC. Rather, it is IFR vs. VFR. When I'm IFR I notice that my head and cockpit are all "tuned up" and in order from takeoff to landing. VFR is by nature more spontaneous and less orderly. When IFR, most IMC encounters are non-events. Even though I am instrument rated, I consider IMC encounters when flying VFR to be urgent if not emergency situations requiring immediate and well rehearsed action to remedy.
 
I just find its much easier to fly precisely when in IFR conditions because there is no distraction of looking out the windows. When in and out of clouds, I will usually let the autopilot fly so I can look for traffic when in VFR conditions.
 
I can comment that flying in actual is less tiring than flying with foggles. A hood is a little better.
 
I am sort of like Dr. Mack. When flying IFR I find myself concentrating on the instruments that I do not realize the transition from VMC to IMC so much. I do look out the cockpit while in VMC looking for other traffic, but otherwise I am checking the intruments. I never thought about the foggle non foggle issue, but in retrospect I think you are right about it being more tiring with foggles, however, all my foggle flying has been with training and I wonder at least for me whether that is a result of training, versus flying for fun.
 
Challenged said:
I have about 25 hours of Instrument training under my belt now, but I've been in no real hurry to finish up. So...I was flying yesterday evening and it was really hazy with some scattered showers around as well, so visibility wasn't very good. It had me wondering if flying in solid IMC is somehow mentally easier than flying in and out of IMC constantly. Thoughts?
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The thing I've found most challenging about going in and out is just making that initial transition to IMC after takeoff.

While flying VMC to IMC to an IMC approach and landing is very comfortable. Sitting on the ground after say 2 weeks of not flying and then taking off into low IMC conditions.... that I always find challenging. The engine sounds are amplified, even smells are enhanced. Two minutes later in the soup, all is as it should be.
 
When you're in it solid, you can focus on your instrument flying, which means flying more precisely. When you're in and out, you have to keep shifting your attention outside in case some yo-yo is playing dodge-'em with the clouds, but you don't have enough outside references to maintain your attitude precisely. So, I'd rather be in it solid -- if the air is smooth, it seems just like the sim.
 
dell30rb said:
I can comment that flying in actual is less tiring than flying with foggles.
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Amen to that. I hate foggles. Actual is better. For one, I can see more of the panel without moving my head. And I don't have to tilt my head to such uncomfortable angles to see things without the foggles.
 
Ghery said:
Amen to that. I hate foggles. Actual is better. For one, I can see more of the panel without moving my head. And I don't have to tilt my head to such uncomfortable angles to see things without the foggles.
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100% agree. The best hoods work by restricting your view severely, as a side effect forcing you to move your head to see different parts of the panel, which of course tends to be vertigo-inducing. I was sold on actual the first time my finish-up CFII let me do an entire flight in it without the hood. Since getting my rating, I have not used a hood (or even foggles) even once. Every time it's forecast to be good, benign IFR conditions, I try to set aside some time to go up for proficiency/currency practice. Thus far I've done 4 or 5 such solo flights (I'd have to check my logbook to be sure), most recently last Friday, extending my legal currency now to end of November. It felt really good! This is definitely the way to do it if you can find low, near-minimums conditions frequently enough. That may not always be possible, but since April I've managed to keep the rust at bay this way, and I hope to continue to be able to do so.

(That's not to say I won't do IPCs, of course, as it's good to get a CFII's input from time to time so as not to fall into bad habits. Maybe as soon as next month.)
 
To the OP's question: it hasn't really mattered to me. If I'm in instrument conditions, either solid or in and out, I'm on the instruments and do my best to ignore any distractions. I guess I should be more alert for idiots playing around the cloud edges, I know they're out there.
 
DrMack said:
For me it's not an issue of IMC vs. VMC. Rather, it is IFR vs. VFR. When I'm IFR I notice that my head and cockpit are all "tuned up" and in order from takeoff to landing. VFR is by nature more spontaneous and less orderly. When IFR, most IMC encounters are non-events. Even though I am instrument rated, I consider IMC encounters when flying VFR to be urgent if not emergency situations requiring immediate and well rehearsed action to remedy.
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Very well said. Exactly how I see it.
 
A good autopilot - keep the head in the airplane when in IMC -and if you are going to be in and out and in and out - file.


Leave it to ATC to help with the traffic calls - had one the other day - ATC cleared me to 4000 out of POC on an instrument departure - tops were at 2700. I'm on the DP and entering the 1000' thick cloud deck and have VFR traffic called at 2, at 3500, 1 mile. WTF? How can a King Air at 3500 less than 1000 over the top of a deck be VFR?
 
Ron Levy said:
When you're in it solid, you can focus on your instrument flying, which means flying more precisely. When you're in and out, you have to keep shifting your attention outside in case some yo-yo is playing dodge-'em with the clouds, but you don't have enough outside references to maintain your attitude precisely. So, I'd rather be in it solid -- if the air is smooth, it seems just like the sim.
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I don't know what TCAS costs but I'd look I to it. I don't sweat the in and out at all. I don't sweat much with BST and TCAS on my side. Sure I look out side VMC. Probably more than a 121 crew....but that ain't saying much.
 
Captain said:
I don't know what TCAS costs but I'd look I to it. I don't sweat the in and out at all. I don't sweat much with BST and TCAS on my side. Sure I look out side VMC. Probably more than a 121 crew....but that ain't saying much.
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Of course there are all kinds of aircraft running around that your TCAS isn't going to see, like my Flybaby. TCAS is a tool to assist your vision but most certainly isn't a substitute....
 
I haven't noticed a problem flying in and out of clouds in cruise. Where I do notice a problem is that if I break out near minimums on a non-precision approach, seeing the ground is distracting enough that I am in danger of inadvertently going below the MDA before having the airport in sight.
 
jesse said:
Of course there are all kinds of aircraft running around that your TCAS isn't going to see, like my Flybaby. TCAS is a tool to assist your vision but most certainly isn't a substitute....
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You'd think a 141 guy would know that sort of thing.
 
acrophile said:
For me they're about the same.

Be sure to scan for nearby traffic when you emerge from a cloud!
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That's a reason to either be on the ground or on an IFR flight plan.
DrMack said:
For me it's not an issue of IMC vs. VMC. Rather, it is IFR vs. VFR. When I'm IFR I notice that my head and cockpit are all "tuned up" and in order from takeoff to landing. VFR is by nature more spontaneous and less orderly. When IFR, most IMC encounters are non-events. Even though I am instrument rated, I consider IMC encounters when flying VFR to be urgent if not emergency situations requiring immediate and well rehearsed action to remedy.
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C'Mon Doc. Everybody knows you NEVER fly VFR anymore.:D
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's a reason to either be on the ground or on an IFR flight plan.
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If you're emerging from a cloud, I'd hope you are on an IFR flight plan!

But even when you're flying under IFR, both safety and regulatory concerns require you to see and avoid other aircraft when you have the visibility to do so.
 
I was recommended to carry a set of foggles or a hood along in IMC in case of something ridiculously distracting or a sloped cloud layer below, stuff like that.

But in my tiny amount of Actual I haven't found popping in and out to be overly distracting so far.

Mostly it just hurts the eyes when you're popping out on top with bright white fluffy tops and then back to grey and bright white again. I prefer flying without sunglasses unless I must switch. Own a pair of prescription Scheyden flip ups for those days where it's too bright to not.

The first few penetrations into a flat vertical wall of cloud ahead are also interesting, until you get your brain to stop thinking they're solid, and the seat belt is going to hurt. :)

Bad crossover from automotive learning there. But you get over it after only a few of them.
 
denverpilot said:
I was recommended to carry a set of foggles or a hood along in IMC in case of something ridiculously distracting or a sloped cloud layer below, stuff like that.

But in my tiny amount of Actual I haven't found popping in and out to be overly distracting so far.

Mostly it just hurts the eyes when you're popping out on top with bright white fluffy tops and then back to grey and bright white again. I prefer flying without sunglasses unless I must switch. Own a pair of prescription Scheyden flip ups for those days where it's too bright to not.

The first few penetrations into a flat vertical wall of cloud ahead are also interesting, until you get your brain to stop thinking they're solid, and the seat belt is going to hurt. :)

Bad crossover from automotive learning there. But you get over it after only a few of them.
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A lot of truth.
 
If I'm IFR I'm looking at the panel and nowhere else. In and out of the cloud tops just means some flickering light in my peripheral vision.
 
denverpilot said:
I was recommended to carry a set of foggles or a hood along in IMC in case of something ridiculously distracting or a sloped cloud layer below, stuff like that.

But in my tiny amount of Actual I haven't found popping in and out to be overly distracting so far.

Mostly it just hurts the eyes when you're popping out on top with bright white fluffy tops and then back to grey and bright white again. I prefer flying without sunglasses unless I must switch. Own a pair of prescription Scheyden flip ups for those days where it's too bright to not.

The first few penetrations into a flat vertical wall of cloud ahead are also interesting, until you get your brain to stop thinking they're solid, and the seat belt is going to hurt. :)

Bad crossover from automotive learning there. But you get over it after only a few of them.
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So THAT's why the NASCAR guys have such an aviation record? :wink2:
 
Threefingeredjack said:
If I'm IFR I'm looking at the panel and nowhere else. In and out of the cloud tops just means some flickering light in my peripheral vision.
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But looking outside between the clouds is some of the most beautiful scenery one will ever see. That's why a good functioning auto pilot is a nice thing to have. :goofy:
 
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snoboy said:
But looking outside between the clouds is some of the most beautiful scenery one will ever see. That's why a good functioning auto pilot is a nice thing to have. :goofy:
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No doubt. But sad as it may sound, after a few thousand hours it is pretty much all the same. Sunrise and sunset are still pretty special times however.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
If I'm IFR I'm looking at the panel and nowhere else. In and out of the cloud tops just means some flickering light in my peripheral vision.
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That's reasonable if the transitions are so quick that it's literally a flicker. But if you emerge from the clouds for long enough to look out the window for traffic, you're required to do so, even if you're IFR. It's just one of the things that must be incorporated into your scan.

91.113(b) When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.​
 
acrophile said:
That's reasonable if the transitions are so quick that it's literally a flicker. But if you emerge from the clouds for long enough to look out the window for traffic, you're required to do so, even if you're IFR. It's just one of the things that must be incorporated into your scan.

91.113(b) When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.​
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Yes, I know. As odd as it may sound after 30 some years and 15k+ hours I have figured that out. The scenario you mention is no longer IMC but VFR on top, no matter how brief.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Yes, I know. As odd as it may sound after 30 some years and 15k+ hours I have figured that out. The scenario you mention is no longer IMC but VFR on top, no matter how brief.
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Technically, VFR OTP requires that you maintain VFR cloud clearances per 91.155 and fly VFR altitudes per 91.55 even though you are on an IFR clearance. AFaIK being in VMC (intermittently or continuously) on a "normal" IFR clearance doesn't change anything other than you're need to "see and avoid" when in VMC.
 
I like the sensation of speed as you enter and exit the clouds. I still think it's cool.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Yes, I know. As odd as it may sound after 30 some years and 15k+ hours I have figured that out. The scenario you mention is no longer IMC but VFR on top, no matter how brief.
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No, not at all. We were talking about flying "in and out of the cloud tops". A VFR-on-top clearance does not permit that (even if the distance between the cloud tops is enough to put you briefly in VMC).
 
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