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jesse

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Oct 2, 2005
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Jesse
...with no job, and lot's of time.

I decided to record the ATC transmissions of my latest flight.. Just touch & go's at night.

http://www.jesseangell.com/video/me.mp3

I'm N9853Q ... File is about 3 or 4 meg I think.
 
Heh, those mustve been short approaches, cleared for touch and go about every 5 seconds :rofl:
 
I can do it with my laptop. Run a patch cord from an open headset jack, to the mic/line in. Start sound recorder.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What devices do you use to copy atc and cockpit transmx?
Click to expand...

Well. I have a j-pole antenna on the house that is tuned for the 2 meter ham band, but seems to do a pretty good job of picking up aircraft too. I was impressed to find that you could hear my transmissions when I was on the ground.

tony said:
Heh, those mustve been short approaches, cleared for touch and go about every 5 seconds :rofl:
Click to expand...
Yeah.. Well, I edited the audio to get rid of the blank sections.. But flight time was: .2 with 11 landings, so yeah..it was a bit tight, and short.
 
tonycondon said:
.2 on the tach i assume?
Click to expand...

Even .2 on the tach is low. 1 minute 5 seconds for a trip around the pattern? No way.
 
N2212R said:
Even .2 on the tach is low. 1 minute 5 seconds for a trip around the pattern? No way.
Click to expand...

Runup? We don't need no steenkin runup. :D
 
wbarnhill said:
Runup? We don't need no steenkin runup. :D
Click to expand...

LOL. I was thinking that even if he was climbing at 2000fpm that's still 30 seconds to get up to pattern altitude. And a 2000fpm descent is a 30 second descent. That leaves 5 seconds of time on the runway, assuming a circular traffic pattern. No downwind, no base, no nothing.
 
N2212R said:
LOL. I was thinking that even if he was climbing at 2000fpm that's still 30 seconds to get up to pattern altitude. And a 2000fpm descent is a 30 second descent. That leaves 5 seconds of time on the runway, assuming a circular traffic pattern. No downwind, no base, no nothing.
Click to expand...
Isn't .2 equivalent to 12 minutes, not 1:05?

Jason

P.S. Jesse--sounds like you have a nice setup. My J-pole is tuned to 125 MHz which is only 10.185" longer (overall) and 3" difference on the To Notch from your J-pole (which from the sound of it is tuned at 146MHz).
 
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.2 tach time

Of course there was a runup. I taxied from the hangars and if you listen to my radio call i asked for an "alpha 6 departure". THat is a takeoff about midfield, to save time and not have to taxi to the other side of the airport. That still leaves me with 5,500 ft.

I never went up to traffic pattern altitude, if you notice I asked the controller if it'd be ok if I did a tight pattern. Well, it was a tight pattern, so you will be at a lower altitude.

Basically, I'd takeoff..turn crosswind at about 100 AGL, keep turning into the downwind. I'd turn base abeam the numbers, and do a slipping turn with full flaps to touch on the numbers..full power..and repeat. It doesn't take much time at all.
 
N2212R said:
LOL. I was thinking that even if he was climbing at 2000fpm that's still 30 seconds to get up to pattern altitude. And a 2000fpm descent is a 30 second descent. That leaves 5 seconds of time on the runway, assuming a circular traffic pattern. No downwind, no base, no nothing.
Click to expand...

1) He flys a tailwheel, nice tight patterns.
2) Remember Tach time only = real time at cruise settings, Cruise ~2300RPM, durring climb out ~2600 (tach time > real time but only for about 1 min for a 700ft pattern) if he runs the down wing leg at 1500 RPM Tach time < real time and if the decent is done at idle tach time << real time. So for most of the pattern tach time is moveing @ a rate slower then real time.

Missa
 
jangell said:
.2 tach time

Of course there was a runup. I taxied from the hangars and if you listen to my radio call i asked for an "alpha 6 departure". THat is a takeoff about midfield, to save time and not have to taxi to the other side of the airport. That still leaves me with 5,500 ft.

I never went up to traffic pattern altitude, if you notice I asked the controller if it'd be ok if I did a tight pattern. Well, it was a tight pattern, so you will be at a lower altitude.

Basically, I'd takeoff..turn crosswind at about 100 AGL, keep turning into the downwind. I'd turn base abeam the numbers, and do a slipping turn with full flaps to touch on the numbers..full power..and repeat. It doesn't take much time at all.
Click to expand...

yea thats always fun. I used to send a student out in the pattern solo, then go jump in the super cub and practice landings. Would pass him in the pattern about every 3rd time around, never got above 600 AGL and 1/4 mile from the airport. 15-20 landings in .7 tach or something like that.
That type of pattern work just feels more natural when youve got a wheel in back, stick in your hand, and door wide open:)
 
I didn't realize tight meant low. 100' TPA, real smart.
 
it was starting the crosswind turn at 100', but i believe it was a climbing turn to downwind, at least i hope. otherwise, eds thoughts would be mine exactly
 
N2212R said:
I didn't realize tight meant low. 100' TPA, real smart.
Click to expand...
TPA and the size of your traffic pattern are DIRECTLY proportional.

Let's say that I did do a 100' TPA, I didn't. But let's just say I did. Let's think about this, before we start to question others intelliegence. Would there be anything dangerous about it? No. This is a fairly decent sized airport with two runways, one of which is 10,000 ft. Guess what that all means? That means there is tons of nothing but grass (well snow in this case). Also tight means close to the ruwany. There isn't a point in a 100 ft pattern (if you flew close enough to the runway) to where you wouldn't be able to make the runway. Or even better yet, toss your ego out the door and land in the grass/snow.

I don't fly a jet, so I fly my prop like a prop should be flown, Safely.

Give me one good reason why a 100ft,200ft,300ft,400ft,500ft..and so on pattern would be dangerous.

A properly flown pattern and approach is what is important, the size of this is up to you. I'm poor, so I'd rather keep it tight. This improves your sitck & rudder skills drastically, and your experiance per dollar.

tonycondon said:
it was starting the crosswind turn at 100', but i believe it was a climbing turn to downwind, at least i hope.
Click to expand...
Climbing turn. You are right.

Now, I did a tight pattern. That means that my final TPA is going to be lower. I'd say it was somewhere around 500' AGL.
 
Didn't you hear Ed? "Hire a Teenager while they still know everything!"
:)
 
...If only that were true, I'd have a job right now.

Onto the actual subject
------------------------------------------------------
Ed Frederick, Are you saying that your pattern altitude has nothing to do with your pattern size?

That is what I wrote above, and instead of posting something constructive you decided to just intentionally **** me off...I'm going to be the mature one, and not write what I'm actually thinking right now, because it is irrelevant to the thread.

If you have a problem with me, either write something constructive, call me an idiot in a PM, or straight up keep your mouth shut. I'd appreciate some respect.

Considering...after all, you are over 30....

N2212R said:
I forgot, I'm over 30, I don't know anything.
Click to expand...
But I suppose you don't know anything, So I have to explain this to you.
 
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I'm a-fixin' to throw water on you guys...
 
No, I don't believe that a pattern altitude is determined by how big it is. The size of the pattern is determined by turning radius. Pattern altitude is told to you by the AFD. If you want to fly a "747 pattern" and the AFD says TPA is 1000' agl, then you fly it at 1000' agl not 2000'. Whether you have 1/8 mile lateral separation from the runway, or 1 mile lateral separation from the runway TPA is TPA.

In my experience a tight pattern is not a low pattern. It means keeping the legs close. I fly a tight pattern (My base "leg" is the apex of the turn from downwind to final) but it (the pattern, not the turn) is still at TPA. There's a reason they publish a TPA. It's so you don't decide to fly it at 500' while everyone else is at 1000' except for one yahoo at 1500' because he needs to set up on a 3/4 mile final every time and things start to go bump in the night.

Exception: CTL on an IAP, in which case I'm going to ream someone a new one for flying a 500' pattern when I break out at 600' on an IMC day.
 
So I'm at 1,000 ft AGL, 1/8 mile from the runway on downwind.

I've got way too much energy, how am I going to lose this without landing 2,000 ft down the runway?

I could throw in 40 degrees of flaps, turn base at the numbers, and do a full uncoordinated slipping turn to touchdown. Guess waht, I'll still be too damn high. I'd have to do a long downwind.

...Now, obviously it's a bad idea to be doing something "different" then everoyne else..you might run into someone... Notice, I was doing this at a controlled airfield, with their permission. I told them what I was going to do before I even started.

I'm in aviation for a different reason then most of the people here. A lot of you are in this for enjoyment. I'm in this because I love it, and I demand that I be the best pilot that I can be, this requires that you learn how to squeeze every last bit of energy out of your airplane. You MAKE it do what you want.

Last night, I was still in about a 45 degree slipping turn at 50 ft AGL when I was coming from base to final at , at the last second you level off and jerk the yoke to your chest for the flare. My goal is to touch on the numbers. I do this poweroff.

This is a controlled airfield, I'm not putting any other pilots or people at risk.

My dad was a cropduster, my grandpa was a cropduster, his dad was an airshow pilot / B-29 pilot. I'd like to do the same someday. You don't just jump into an AirTractor and go blasting around at 1 foot AGL, you already better be a damn good pilot. You teach yourself how to be a damn good pilot, they did it, and I'm doing it.

I don't tell ANYONE how to fly, that is their own choice.

I didn't proof read this. I'm in a hurry. I probably made about a hundred spelling errors.
 
jangell said:
TPA and the size of your traffic pattern are DIRECTLY proportional.

Let's say that I did do a 100' TPA, I didn't. But let's just say I did. Let's think about this, before we start to question others intelliegence. Would there be anything dangerous about it? No. This is a fairly decent sized airport with two runways, one of which is 10,000 ft. Guess what that all means? That means there is tons of nothing but grass (well snow in this case). Also tight means close to the ruwany. There isn't a point in a 100 ft pattern (if you flew close enough to the runway) to where you wouldn't be able to make the runway. Or even better yet, toss your ego out the door and land in the grass/snow.

I don't fly a jet, so I fly my prop like a prop should be flown, Safely.

Give me one good reason why a 100ft,200ft,300ft,400ft,500ft..and so on pattern would be dangerous.

A properly flown pattern and approach is what is important, the size of this is up to you. I'm poor, so I'd rather keep it tight. This improves your sitck & rudder skills drastically, and your experiance per dollar.

Climbing turn. You are right.

Now, I did a tight pattern. That means that my final TPA is going to be lower. I'd say it was somewhere around 500' AGL.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that was at RST (which is towered for those of you who don't know) and I don't see a big problem climbing into the downwind at a controlled field. This is of course, assuming that there's no airport neighbors you are flying low over who might not appreciate it.

OTOH that's not such a good idea at an uncontrolled field as arriving aircraft can easily enter the downwind above you such that you meet somewhere on the way to the touchdown.

One thing that puzzles me though. With the long runways at RST you must have been turning crosswind before reaching the end of the runway and that's contrary to AIM procedures IIRC. Did you ask the tower if that was OK? It wouldn't surprise me if RST tower would routinely authorize that since two miles of runway make for longer closed patterns than most folks want to deal with.
 
lancefisher said:
I'm guessing that was at RST (which is towered for those of you who don't know) and I don't see a big problem climbing into the downwind at a controlled field. This is of course, assuming that there's no airport neighbors you are flying low over who might not appreciate it.
Click to expand...
Yup. One of the nice thing's about RST is it is out of the city by a few miles.

lancefisher said:
OTOH that's not such a good idea at an uncontrolled field as arriving aircraft can easily enter the downwind above you such that you meet somewhere on the way to the touchdown.
Click to expand...
That I completely agree with. If I'm ever going to do something non-standard it's going to be at a controlled field with their permission. Most of my flying has been out of controlled fields, I am paranoid with uncontrolled ones.

lancefisher said:
One thing that puzzles me though. With the long runways at RST you must have been turning crosswind before reaching the end of the runway and that's contrary to AIM procedures IIRC. Did you ask the tower if that was OK? It wouldn't surprise me if RST tower would routinely authorize that since two miles of runway make for longer closed patterns than most folks want to deal with.
Click to expand...
Hmm... I guess I've never seen anyone do that, as it'd just be too far. I did say: "I'd like to keep my pattern a bit tight and make these short approaches tonight if that is OK?"

Response was:"that is approved, cleared touch and go"
 
jangell said:
posting something constructive
Click to expand...

OK,

I made an excel spreadsheet that shows why flying low isn't necessarily flying smart. When you said you turned at 100' AGL to crosswind, I decided to run some numbers. Feel free to dispute them, feel free to tweak them. I based this on your engine quitting right as you were finishing the turn to downwind. If you want to figure on your engine quitting on crosswind or base, put in a climb rate of 0, and change the TURN NEEDED TO MAKE FIELD to 270 or 90. You could even figure it for a straight ahead if you put in 360.

This assumes that you don't have a crosswind leg, but a climbing 180 to downwind from departure. It was also roughly based on DEGREES/15 = standard rate ratio.
15=1x, 30=2x, 45=3x, 60=4x, etc..

Calculated values are
ALT AT DOWNWIND
LIFT RATIO
LATERAL DISTANCE TILL TOUCHDOWN
SECONDS TO COMPLETE TURN
LATERAL DISTANCE NEEDED

Feel Free to plug in different values

Assuming 60mph and a base turn at 100', a climb rate of 1000fpm, and a glide ratio of 8:1, You aren't making it back to the runway - unless my numbers are wrong, and I'm not sure they are. But everything has to be real world perfect for these numbers, no hesitation, no reaction time factored it, nothing.

EDIT: See link below for spreadsheet
 
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Ok, I think I got the file correct, after the 3rd upload.
 
jangell said:
So I'm at 1,000 ft AGL, 1/8 mile from the runway on downwind.

I've got way too much energy, how am I going to lose this without landing 2,000 ft down the runway?

I could throw in 40 degrees of flaps, turn base at the numbers, and do a full uncoordinated slipping turn to touchdown. Guess waht, I'll still be too damn high. I'd have to do a long downwind.

...Now, obviously it's a bad idea to be doing something "different" then everoyne else..you might run into someone... Notice, I was doing this at a controlled airfield, with their permission. I told them what I was going to do before I even started.

I'm in aviation for a different reason then most of the people here. A lot of you are in this for enjoyment. I'm in this because I love it, and I demand that I be the best pilot that I can be, this requires that you learn how to squeeze every last bit of energy out of your airplane. You MAKE it do what you want.

Last night, I was still in about a 45 degree slipping turn at 50 ft AGL when I was coming from base to final at , at the last second you level off and jerk the yoke to your chest for the flare. My goal is to touch on the numbers. I do this poweroff.

This is a controlled airfield, I'm not putting any other pilots or people at risk.

My dad was a cropduster, my grandpa was a cropduster, his dad was an airshow pilot / B-29 pilot. I'd like to do the same someday. You don't just jump into an AirTractor and go blasting around at 1 foot AGL, you already better be a damn good pilot. You teach yourself how to be a damn good pilot, they did it, and I'm doing it.

I don't tell ANYONE how to fly, that is their own choice.

I didn't proof read this. I'm in a hurry. I probably made about a hundred spelling errors.
Click to expand...

Gotta be careful with towers because they will sometimes approve things that are definately against the FARs otherwise, for an open airport with lots of grass/snow all around and no houses, a flat landing should be possible at all times by an alert pilot that's sufficiently intimate with the aircraft no matter whether its tail or nose is dragging.
 
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I like the spreadsheet. But I'm slightly confused about it.

If I were to actually be flying a pattern that low, I would be a LOT closer to the runway than 3960 ft. Somewhere round' 1/8 mile from the runway would be more or less where I would be.
 
jangell said:
I like the spreadsheet. But I'm slightly confused about it.

If I were to actually be flying a pattern that low, I would be a LOT closer to the runway than 3960 ft. Somewhere round' 1/8 mile from the runway would be more or less where I would be.
Click to expand...

The distance at the bottom computes the distance along your path of travel - assumed to be consecutive 90º degree turns whether in the same direction or opposite directions - not the distance from the runway.
 
ed love the spreadsheet. found that when i increase the speed, the lateral distance decreases, whys that? i would think it would increase because of higher turn radius.
 
Ok Jesse, I’ve been thinking about this all night and just didn’t have time to get back on the board to post it. With you background I'm sure you know this but I want to say it anyway, to make me feel better, to make you think about it again and to make anyone else out there who may read this and do small low patterns think about this:

ALWAYS KNOW WHERE YOUR WIND IS AND WHAT IT'S DOING!

I don't think there is anything wrong in doing patterns like you describe at a towered field or at a private use field but realize you are flying on the edge of the performance envelope and you need to alter what you are doing based on what the wind is doing. I personally don’t think that I think about the wind enough, yes the wind is from X so we are taking off runway X and there is/is not a crosswind from the right/left. But when flying on the edge you need to make sure you think about it more. If flying a left pattern and you have a right quarting headwind on upwind, it will become a right quarting tailwind on the cross wind turn. If this is the case PLEASE give yourself more altitude before the crosswind turn, ensure you are at best climb speed (and don’t let it decay in the turn, another one of my personal things to work on) and keep the turn shallow no matter how much bigger it will make your pattern. The reverse is also true, if you have a quarting headwind on crosswind you will have a tailwind on base and you’ll need to watch the turns there. Realize that some days you can fly a tighter pattern then other days depending on what the wind is doing. In a tailwind you loose relative airspeed over the wing which causes a loss of lift, if you are in a tight turn into a tailwind too slow you can stall out a wing and you may not be able to recover if you’re not high enough. From all indications, I had a friend and CFII forget this last month and he paid the ultimate price for that mistake and all his friends and family paid for it too. He was also at a controlled field and had permission to do what he was doing, so don’t think for a moment that just because the tower gave you permission that the conditions are ok to do the maneuver. I beg you to learn from his mistake and not repeat it; I don’t want to loose another friend.

I’m not concerned about you not making it back to the runway, it looks like you’ve already thought of that and landing off the runway will cause damage to your ego and possibly your airplane. Uncontrolled flight into the ground will do much worse damage.

I’m not telling you not to do this, in fact I think for the reasons you stated it will make you an excellent pilot, just be the excellent pilot and know how the wind is changing what you can make the plane do and NEVER get behind the plane or the wind.

Missa
 
tonycondon said:
ed love the spreadsheet. found that when i increase the speed, the lateral distance decreases, whys that? i would think it would increase because of higher turn radius.
Click to expand...


I have no lateral distances in the spreadsheet, those are the distances traveled along the arc. But let me look at see what I was thinking. I put it together at 1 am. I may make some changes.


EDIT:

Ah, I have a bad label. When I started the spreadsheet, I also had a vertical distance component that showed what altitude you needed to be at, and just left the label of LATERAL - make that ARC distance instead of LATERAL distance in both cells.
 
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OK, but wouldn't the higher speed require a larger arc distance? given that you hold a constant rate of turn, the radius increases with speed. and radius*theta = arc length. theta is pi radians. right?
 
If you are at 1000' and have a glide ratio of 8:1, you will cover 8000' of ground whether you are traveling at 30kts, 60kts or 600kts, straight or in an arc (minus the amount of reduced lift) But I see what you are saying, let me go back and look at the numbers.
 
Ed:

Great educational tool, nourishing food for thought.

Thanks!
 
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