Follow-Up: Lost Trust in Foreflight

LauraE51

LauraE51

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Modesto,CA
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Laura
This is a follow-up to my post two weeks, Lost Trust in Foreflight, which received more than 8,500 views and 261 replies, most of them encouraging me to refocus my training on alternative navigation tools. While my primary question was about problems i was having with Foreflight, which turned out to be a Location Services reset that occurred when i updated to IOS 8.02, the majority of replies encouraged me to get a better handle on both VOR and the Garmin 430 unit in my FBO planes.

You were right, and with the exception of the few jerks who replied, i'd like to thank you for your advice. Over the past week, i've again watched the Garmin 430 tutorials and have practiced programming it at home. i also charted out a short cross country so that i could practice intercepting radials.

Today, i took up my CFI and over 1 1/2 hours, intercepted four radials from three VORs. I also spent time programming the Garmin, so that i felt comfortable transferring skills from the Win-based program to the plane. All went smoothly and i now feel like i have plans B and C if Foreflight misbehaves again.

NOw, i can get back to practicing my landings.

Again, thank you to those of you who replied.

Brian
 
The other bit of advice I can say no matter what ipad based program you are using. Don't ever...EVER upgrade the IOS with the next BIG version the 1st 2 weeks its out. I don't care what xyz person says that it is ok. They will be proven wrong and that will happen by someone that upgraded, think everything is well and then have it crash on you. then you will want to blame the program when that wasn't the reason. Let other people be the guinea pigs then after enough time has passed and the issues have been resolved upgrade.
 
Brian; thanks for the follow up report. Glad to hear you were able to advance your knowledge and skills.
 
Well, i got grilled pretty hard, so after recovering from the beating, i felt it made sense to fast track some my retraining. I feel more prepared now.
 
You have a great attitude. That thread made me cringe. It also showed me to be very careful what I post or ask on here. Most importantly it showed me who the people are to completely ignore. The advice on navigation was solid, the way some of it was delivered was terrible. Good luck to you going forward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'd agree with the tone some people had. It's amazing how people who would probably never respond one way in public have no problem doing so on a forum.

The advice from the reasonable mass was solid, though, and i thank you for replying.

Brian
 
I am glad you got out and did a little re-training, this group can be brutally honest and sometimes just brutal, but it's all about making you safer!:yes: Unless you enter the spin zone, then it's all about calling you a doo-doo head!:rofl:
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, i got grilled pretty hard, so after recovering from the beating, i felt it made sense to fast track some my retraining. I feel more prepared now.
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Some constructive, some very much not. Such is the innerweb I guess.

Additional training is never a bad thing.
 
bbridges51 said:
I'd agree with the tone some people had. It's amazing how people who would probably never respond one way in public have no problem doing so on a forum.

The advice from the reasonable mass was solid, though, and i thank you for replying.

Brian
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This is all explained by John Gabriel's Greater Internet F***wad Theory here:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

It's an unfortunate reality of the Internet.
 
Good job. I'd say the other thread was a raging success.
 
In all serious, good job on getting up on the training. I absolutely love FF, too, and I plan to use it for most (if not all) of my planning and navigating. But, it's not my sole source. Even with FF, I prefer looking out the window. :)
 
NickC99 said:
In all serious, good job on getting up on the training. I absolutely love FF, too, and I plan to use it for most (if not all) of my planning and navigating. But, it's not my sole source. Even with FF, I prefer looking out the window. :)
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Oh, there's a lot to be said in looking out the window, but i just love FF's accuracy. I hadn't been aware that our gyroscope in many of my FBO's 172s were old enough, inaccurate enough, that the the heading indicator needs to be reset fairly often during a flight. Most concerning, but since i'd like to depend on it.
 
I'm glad you recognized the errors of your ways. It happens the best of us. The important and defining thing is that you recognized it and took action to correct it. You will be the better pilot for it.
 
bbridges51 said:
Oh, there's a lot to be said in looking out the window, but i just love FF's accuracy. I hadn't been aware that our gyroscope in many of my FBO's 172s were old enough, inaccurate enough, that the the heading indicator needs to be reset fairly often during a flight. Most concerning, but since i'd like to depend on it.
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The specification for heading indicators is 3 degrees per 10 minutes. If it's off more than that it is not IFR legal. I'm not aware of a spec for VFR flight and since I'm about to go home, I'm not interested in looking it up.
 
If it makes you feel any better, I didn't respond to that other thread, and I can be more of a dick in person.
 
I think it's normal for the DG to precess over time. You're supposed to cross check the DG with the compass while in level flight once in a while to correct it.

Also remember Foreflight and any other GPS will show you your ground track, not your magnetic heading. Any crosswind will require a crab to maintain your ground track. So your magnetic heading (compass and DG) will show the direction your nose is pointing, not the direction the aircraft is moving over the ground. The GPS doesn't know or care what direction the nose of the plane is pointing. All it knows is what your ground tracks is.

So if you are cruising through a stiff crosswind, trying to go due east, your nose, DG, and compass might be pointing 110 to maintain a ground track of 090. That is not an error.
 
I've had to take time away from flying for a while on a couple of occasions. I've always liked to get back into it with a CFI and tell him/her, "I need to knock off the rust, and I want to learn something new." Sounds like you were able to get some flying in and solidify some VOR and other NAV skills. Good deal.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, i got grilled pretty hard, so after recovering from the beating, i felt it made sense to fast track some my retraining. I feel more prepared now.
Click to expand...

I second the great attitude part. I too didn't reply because of where the thread went.

Perfect solution though. I love flying with my CFI. I always learn something.

I still remember when I training for my private and flying what my partner refers to as "B52 patterns", when Dick looked over at me and said, "if the engine quit right now, could you make the runway?". Ummm. No. Point taken.... lol Never did that again....
 
I was happy to take a few rounds for ya. Strangely, you're prolly safer than most of us.

lol...
 
retailguy said:
I second the great attitude part. I too didn't reply because of where the thread went.

Perfect solution though. I love flying with my CFI. I always learn something.

I still remember when I training for my private and flying what my partner refers to as "B52 patterns", when Dick looked over at me and said, "if the engine quit right now, could you make the runway?". Ummm. No. Point taken.... lol Never did that again....
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I got to thinking that the natural follow on to this story is what happened afterwards...

A while back we bought a Travel Air. During my early multi training, I was flying with a different CFI, who has more time in multi engine airplanes including travel air than I will ever fly. The second lesson as we were coming back into the pattern, CFI says to me:

"Why do you fly such tight patterns? You make this so much harder on yourself."

I reply - "If the engine quits, I want to make sure that I can make the runway."

There's a long pause followed by the following -

"If you lose an engine, how about you use the other one to land?"


Yeah...:redface: That's a great idea. I am convinced that I will never get anything right the first time.:rofl:
 
Not all engine failures in a light twin are limited to one engine. Fuel problems (leaks, contamination, etc.) come to mind. In the pattern, you won't have time to fiddle.
 
vfsit said:
The other bit of advice I can say no matter what ipad based program you are using. Don't ever...EVER upgrade the IOS with the next BIG version the 1st 2 weeks its out. I don't care what xyz person says that it is ok. They will be proven wrong and that will happen by someone that upgraded, think everything is well and then have it crash on you. then you will want to blame the program when that wasn't the reason. Let other people be the guinea pigs then after enough time has passed and the issues have been resolved upgrade.
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+1 :yes:

I hate back ups. Once you have a failure a day before you are suppose to leave on a big CC, ...like OSH! :mad: It jades you for a few decades. :rolleyes2:
 
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N801BH said:
Kool..... Tough love must have worked...:rolleyes:
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Well, some of the comments veered from "tough love" to assault and battery, but the consensus was correct. thank you all for your support. i do love PoA and appreciate having some place to come, read about other's problems and share my own.
 
bbridges51 said:
Well, some of the comments veered from "tough love" to assault and battery, but the consensus was correct. thank you all for your support. i do love PoA and appreciate having some place to come, read about other's problems and share my own.
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We are all just trying to keep you alive so you can keep posting on POA..:yes:...:)
 
Well maybe some of the responses were way on the harsh side, but maybe they were a little necessary too. The important thing is that you're now a better and SAFER pilot. People on the internet can be dicks, or sometimes just come off that way because the written word has no tone or inflection. You got something good out of it though, so in the end it's all positive.

I'll also agree with the whole "dont upgrade right away" crowd. Seems every time they put out a new OS or big upgrade it just means a new round of headaches. I actually had to root my phone to prevent it from updating. It worked great when I bought it, and it still works great 2 years later which is more than I can say for a lot of friends with the same phone and the new software. A lot of these devices were built around the software, and moving to a newer version that simply wasn't written for it can really jack things up. Let everyone else find out if there are problems first, then make an EDUCATED decision on if the upgrade is a good choice or not.
 
bbridges51 said:
...now feel like i have plans B and C if Foreflight misbehaves again.
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So, I take it plan A is to use your ipad for navigation??


Plan A should be VFR, as in visual, as in chart and look out the window.

Plan B should be using that GNS430

Plan C should be Vectors / VORs

The ipad is for planning, not navigating. I use one for work all the time, mos times its closed and used as a pad for my scratch paper, that's flying late night hard IFR too.

I think you need to take another look at your priorities in the air.
 
James331 said:
So, I take it plan A is to use your ipad for navigation??


Plan A should be VFR, as in visual, as in chart and look out the window.

Plan B should be using that GNS430

Plan C should be Vectors / VORs

The ipad is for planning, not navigating. I use one for work all the time, mos times its closed and used as a pad for my scratch paper, that's flying late night hard IFR too.

I think you need to take another look at your priorities in the air.
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Id disagree some. When I fly just VFR buzzing around the area, FF helps a ton. DFW has some busy airspace, and yes looking at ground references helps, but with so many overlapping airspaces FF has really improved my ability to visualize the airspaces around me and is slick on a short XC flight. The in plane GPS really is useless for most of the flying I do.

The last time I flew before getting my BFR this year was 20 years ago and we didnt have those fancy GPSs you all use now...
And coming back into it FF has really changed everything...If you have been flying all this time the incremental steps may not seem as big, but coming from VOR only then next step FF? I was amazed....

Brian, I share you anxious enthusiasm about getting back into the game. Im there with you
 
James331 said:
The ipad is for planning, not navigating.
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For you, maybe.

It can also be a wonderful moving map.

I use mine (iPad Mini running WingXPro7) in the air, and in complicated airspace it becomes my primary source for positional awareness, with my 496 as backup/confirmation. iPhone as backup to the backup.

In my Sky Arrow that's all I have for navigational capability.
 
Doesn't matter what someone uses for primary in VFR navigation as long as they can use other things and understand whatever faults their chosen tool might have(I'm looking at you compasses:lol:)
 
vfsit said:
The other bit of advice I can say no matter what ipad based program you are using. Don't ever...EVER upgrade the IOS with the next BIG version the 1st 2 weeks its out. I don't care what xyz person says that it is ok. They will be proven wrong and that will happen by someone that upgraded, think everything is well and then have it crash on you. then you will want to blame the program when that wasn't the reason. Let other people be the guinea pigs then after enough time has passed and the issues have been resolved upgrade.
Click to expand...


As someone who made his living in many different roles within HMI software development companies for almost 20 years, the above is SOUND ADVICE!

There is a bell curve with the immediate adopters on the left of the curve. These are the folks who will camp out in front of the store for a week to be the first to buy the latest revision. For the most part, these are the people who have the most software, and hardware for that matter, related problems.

Let those people that love being on the leading edge of that curve do the testing for you.
 
All right! The nature of online communication tends to make posts sound harsher than they may have been intended. Sounds like you were able to filter through the harshness and learn something. That indicates a great pilot attitude.
 
Foreflight is a wonderful application. I've had it in my cockpit, and in my pocket, over three years now. Other than early on being confused when my headset cable happened to do something unpredictable on the touchscreen at a critical time, it has been flawless. I can't blame Foreflight for the unexpected touch.

Even with three years worth of confidence built up, I still keep a chart close at hand. It might be outdated, but it's close at hand. Before I take off, I make mental note of the heading to my destination and am ready to fly the DG if need be.

I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy, so I'm not comfortable without a backup plan.
 
StinkBug said:
Well maybe some of the responses were way on the harsh side, but maybe they were a little necessary too. The important thing is that you're now a better and SAFER pilot. People on the internet can be dicks, or sometimes just come off that way because the written word has no tone or inflection. You got something good out of it though, so in the end it's all positive.
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I had to refrain from posting on that thread. I thought there were a lot of mean-spirited posts and many were cloaked in well-intentioned advice, even from some senior and well-respected posters. I was going to take one in particular to task, but thought that I would inadvertently contribute to the noise and the value of the good intentions of others could possibly become obscured. I'm glad my discretion turned out to be the better part of valor.
 
You made a good decision. We all fly because we love it. For me it's one of the most enjoyable things to do. I would be disappointed if I had to cancel flights due to an ipad not working properly. Now you have more confidence go up when the ipad doesn't work and utilize the tools you have.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I had to refrain from posting on that thread. I thought there were a lot of mean-spirited posts and many were cloaked in well-intentioned advice, even from some senior and well-respected posters. I was going to take one in particular to task, but thought that I would inadvertently contribute to the noise and the value of the good intentions of others could possibly become obscured. I'm glad my discretion turned out to be the better part of valor.
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Yup, you are morally superior to those jerks that got the OP to seek out and acquire more skills.:rolleyes2:
 
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