follow roads vs. MLOD?

[roncachamp]

"Squawk 1200".

Huh? You're on flight following and ATC asks you to "Squawk VFR", why would the first thought in your mind be "can I do it safely"?

I never said I couldn't go there, just that the alternative route would be much more inconvenient than putting up with a short deviation. But my feeling is if I'm going to go all the way around Lake Erie to reach northern Ohio, I might as well drive.

I believe you said you could either go where the controller wanted you to go or he'd tell you to "Squawk VFR" which would then require you to remain outside of Canadian airspace. Either way you're not going where you wanted to go.

 

[azure]

Huh? You're on flight following and ATC asks you to "Squawk VFR", why would the first thought in your mind be "can I do it safely"?

What makes you think that would be the first thought in my mind?

I believe you said you could either go where the controller wanted you to go or he'd tell you to "Squawk VFR" which would then require you to remain outside of Canadian airspace. Either way you're not going where you wanted to go.

Oh puh-leeze. Don't you have better things to do than argue semantics? I know I do.

 

[roncachamp]

What makes you think that would be the first thought in my mind?

Because that's what was indicated by your answer to the question, assuming you were following the discussion.

Oh puh-leeze. Don't you have better things to do than argue semantics? I know I do.

You obviously lost track of the discussion.

 

[PilotAlan]

If someone is up just burning gas then fly airport to airport, follow major roads, only turn left, fly around lakes, whatever. However, if you are flying anything with the slightest intent of efficiency then a straight line is the obvious answer most of the time.

The real issue here is a lack of comfort flying pure and simple. You may have done 1,000's of hours of CC airport to airport along major roads, but I still believe you are flying those routes because of what might happen (mechanically) and not because you feel it is the best routing.

Go back and re-read what I said.
Look at a course from Denver to Bloomington (BMI). Over northern MO there a couple hundred miles where the line is a long way from any airport.
Now adjust the line to go over Burlington (BRL). The course line goes over several airports rather than over the void, with an increase of ETE of one minute at 120 kts (6hrs 2 min vs 6hrs 1min).

Look at the route from FTG to Aberdeen (ABR). Direct you fly through a void with no airports close between takeoff and landing. Now add Gettysburg (OD8) as a waypoint. Now you fly over or near six airports, with an increase of 4 min ETE over a 3.5 hour flight.

That's what I'm talking about. Not flying airport to airport, not flying like I'm driving, but making minor adjustments fly a route that give me options at essentially zero cost. And out west here where sometimes airports are few and far between, I prefer to do that.

Same thing with flying over the Appalachians, or in the desert southwest. I'll choose the route that keeps me near civilization in the Southwest, or near airports or highways in the mountains where I can make a landing if needed.

 

[Alexb2000]

Go back and re-read what I said.
Look at a course from Denver to Bloomington (BMI). Over northern MO there a couple hundred miles where the line is a long way from any airport.
Now adjust the line to go over Burlington (BRL). The course line goes over several airports rather than over the void, with an increase of ETE of one minute at 120 kts (6hrs 2 min vs 6hrs 1min).

Look at the route from FTG to Aberdeen (ABR). Direct you fly through a void with no airports close between takeoff and landing. Now add Gettysburg (OD8) as a waypoint. Now you fly over or near six airports, with an increase of 4 min ETE over a 3.5 hour flight.

That's what I'm talking about. Not flying airport to airport, not flying like I'm driving, but making minor adjustments fly a route that give me options at essentially zero cost. And out west here where sometimes airports are few and far between, I prefer to do that.

Same thing with flying over the Appalachians, or in the desert southwest. I'll choose the route that keeps me near civilization in the Southwest, or near airports or highways in the mountains where I can make a landing if needed.

OK makes more sense put that way. If you feel its worth it to calculate the options, good deal.

 

[azure]

You obviously lost track of the discussion.

Steven, the fact that YOU post something doesn't make it THE discussion. There are usually several lines of discussion going on in a thread, and sometimes they cross, sometimes people reply to posts intended for someone else to make a particular point. It doesn't mean anyone is lost.

A straight ahead question: what is the upside to the pilot in "just saying no" when a controller issues an unauthorized instruction that inconveniences the pilot?

 

[roncachamp]

Steven, the fact that YOU post something doesn't make it THE discussion. There are usually several lines of discussion going on in a thread, and sometimes they cross, sometimes people reply to posts intended for someone else to make a particular point. It doesn't mean anyone is lost.

It did in this case.

A straight ahead question: what is the upside to the pilot in "just saying no" when a controller issues an unauthorized instruction that inconveniences the pilot?

The pilot is not then inconvenienced.

 

[azure]

The pilot is not then inconvenienced.

In my scenario the only way that would be true is if the controller continued to work me even after I refused to comply. Are you actually saying that the controller HAS to do that?

 

[redtail]

Steve: I've been many times on VFR FF in the airspace in this region and ATC has requested me to vector or asked me for intentions to point me away from a current heading, of course at my "own discretion". ATC will always ask me for my destination when I request FF. It's not just flying close in to the bravo either...with arrival and departure routes for all the NY/NJ/PA region criss-crossing here, and at my usual altitudes, it's not unusual at all.

Last year I departed Essex Co. Airport (KCDW) for my return trip home to Republic (KFRG). I hadn't been to Caldwell since the '90s, anyhow, departing VFR and on FF with NY appr, I was vectored all over the place as he was sending me around jet traffic into Teterboro (KTEb)

Hoping to one day get my IR, I enjoyed that experience working in the system. I felt like I was a big boy

Best of all, I got the whole flight recorded with my NFlightcam.

 

[roncachamp]

In my scenario the only way that would be true is if the controller continued to work me even after I refused to comply. Are you actually saying that the controller HAS to do that?

Yes, if he adheres to JO Order 7110.65 he must continue to work you. Of course, if he was adhering to that order he wouldn't have issued the instructions that you refused.

 

[roncachamp]

Last year I departed Essex Co. Airport (KCDW) for my return trip home to Republic (KFRG). I hadn't been to Caldwell since the '90s, anyhow, departing VFR and on FF with NY appr, I was vectored all over the place as he was sending me around jet traffic into Teterboro (KTEb)

Hoping to one day get my IR, I enjoyed that experience working in the system. I felt like I was a big boy

Best of all, I got the whole flight recorded with my NFlightcam.

Were you in Class B airspace, Class C airspace (including the Outer Area), or a TRSA?

 

[azure]

Yes, if he adheres to JO Order 7110.65 he must continue to work you.

Interesting.

Of course, if he was adhering to that order he wouldn't have issued the instructions that you refused.

That much is understood. However, is there something specific about my scenario that is addressed in that Order, that obligates the controller to continue to work me? (If so, please point me to the section number.)

Or is it simply contrary to the Order to refuse to work an aircraft that refuses to comply with instructions?

 

[roncachamp]

That much is understood. However, is there something specific about my scenario that is addressed in that Order, that obligates the controller to continue to work me? (If so, please point me to the section number.)

The order says nothing about scenarios where controllers are not complying with the order, they are expected to comply with the order at all times.

Or is it simply contrary to the Order to refuse to work an aircraft that refuses to comply with instructions?

It's contrary to the order to refuse service to an aircraft when the controller is able to provide the service.

 

[redtail]

Were you in Class B airspace, Class C airspace (including the Outer Area), or a TRSA?

Underneith the NY Class B, just northeast of Newark Liberty.