"FMS" Approach?

Sam D

Sam D

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Sam D
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Flying into SFO last night, listening to Channel 9 on United, and heard a couple of times what I thought was "Cleared for the FMS approach Runway 28R". Did I hear that right? In our case, the pilot reported having the airport in sight prior to receiving this clearance.
 
Sam Doolittle said:
Flying into SFO last night, listening to Channel 9 on United, and heard a couple of times what I thought was "Cleared for the FMS approach Runway 28R". Did I hear that right? In our case, the pilot reported having the airport in sight prior to receiving this clearance.
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ILS and FMS are fairly similar sounding...I bet it was ILS.
 
You probably heard correctly. SFO has two GPS approaches to 28R, the RNAV (RNP) Y and the RNAV (GPS) Z. The "Z" is a traditional straight-in GPS approach, while the "Y" approach has a flat little S-turn in it after the FAF. There's also an arc-to-fix segment on the missed. "Special aircraft and aircrew authorization required." Yep, you're going to be flying this one with an FMS.

Regards,
Joe
 
I think the FMS approach is basically just a coupled approach that can involve RNAV/VNAV and/or ground based NAVAIDS to fly the entire approach and missed procedure.
 
To clarify, there is no "FMS" approach to SFO, but an aircraft with a properly certified FMS can use it to fly any of the eleven RNAV approaches into that airport (see the AIM Section 1-2-1 paragraph 4). One would, however, expect a controller following the book phraseology to clear the aircraft for either the "RNAV GPS Runway 28R" or the "RNAV RNP Runway 28R" approach. Note further than none of our light GA GPS boxes (Garmin 430, KLN-94, etc) are approved for that RNP approach, but the airliner FMS's probably are. For more on RNP, see the AIM Section 1-2-2.
 
United may have a private FMS approach. SWA has contracted for FMS approaches to all of its airports. These approaches will not be available to the general public.
 
What Jim said. Several airlines have their own TERPSters on staff, and they've created special arrivals and approaches that are not published, but have been approved by the FAA and may be used by their aircraft.
 
Since you were listening to Channel 9, you must have been flying United. I think I am qualified to answer the question.

There are at least 2 published visual approaches to the 28s at SFO. The Tipp Toe visual to 28L and the Quiet Bridge visual to 28R. The Quiet Bridge visual is based on a radial off the SFO VOR and DME fixes for stepdowns. It is an offset coarse, kind of like and LDA.

With the advent of FMS navigation, they developed an approach that is more or less an overlay of the Quiet Bridge visual that can be line selected from the FMS and flown more or less automatically. It is a workload reducer to an extent. So what you probably heard was a clearance to do the FMS visual to 28R.

Now whether or not that is an airline specific approach or universal, I don't know.
 
Thanks everyone. Great information for this instrument student.

And Greg, Channel 9 is great. I think JFK ground is my favorite.

Regards,
Sam
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Since you were listening to Channel 9, you must have been flying United. I think I am qualified to answer the question.

There are at least 2 published visual approaches to the 28s at SFO. The Tipp Toe visual to 28L and the Quiet Bridge visual to 28R. The Quiet Bridge visual is based on a radial off the SFO VOR and DME fixes for stepdowns. It is an offset coarse, kind of like and LDA.

With the advent of FMS navigation, they developed an approach that is more or less an overlay of the Quiet Bridge visual that can be line selected from the FMS and flown more or less automatically. It is a workload reducer to an extent. So what you probably heard was a clearance to do the FMS visual to 28R.

Now whether or not that is an airline specific approach or universal, I don't know.
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Many of these approaches are in the Universal FMS database in the Citation XLS my dad flies, so I would think most of them are indeed universal. There are some airline specific approaches out there though, as others have mentioned.
 
Ron Levy said:
To clarify, there is no "FMS" approach to SFO, but an aircraft with a properly certified FMS can use it to fly any of the eleven RNAV approaches into that airport (see the AIM Section 1-2-1 paragraph 4). One would, however, expect a controller following the book phraseology to clear the aircraft for either the "RNAV GPS Runway 28R" or the "RNAV RNP Runway 28R" approach. Note further than none of our light GA GPS boxes (Garmin 430, KLN-94, etc) are approved for that RNP approach, but the airliner FMS's probably are. For more on RNP, see the AIM Section 1-2-2.
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Ron,

Not a big deal, but, from 7110.65R. 4-8-1 Approach Clearance.

6. Approach name items contained within parenthesis; e.g., RNAV (GPS) Rwy 04, are not included in approach clearance phraseology.

I'm not sure how they would differentiate between these (SFO) GPS and RNP procedures in a clearance, though.

gary
 
ghogue said:
Ron,

Not a big deal, but, from 7110.65R. 4-8-1 Approach Clearance.

6. Approach name items contained within parenthesis; e.g., RNAV (GPS) Rwy 04, are not included in approach clearance phraseology.

I'm not sure how they would differentiate between these (SFO) GPS and RNP procedures in a clearance, though.
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Seems to me they'd have to, lest ground and cockpit folks be singing of different sheets of music -- a very scary proposition. Perhaps they have some sort of local deal where, like SFO, they have two different parenthetical approaches with what is otherwise the same phraseological name.
 
There is an 'FMS Bridge Visual " approach to 28R at SFO. It is pretty common to get this clearance at SFO. It's basically a visual approach with FMS waypoints and altitudes. Ceiling and vis of 2100-5 are required. You follow a series of waypoints that keep you right of centerline until crossing the San Mateo bridge and then turn left to intercept centerline ( usually handflown to the localizer). It's published in the Jepps for UAL. NORCAL approach knows the procedure and usually uses it to separate traffice from the visual to 28L.


Mitch
 
ghogue said:
Ron,

Not a big deal, but, from 7110.65R. 4-8-1 Approach Clearance.

6. Approach name items contained within parenthesis; e.g., RNAV (GPS) Rwy 04, are not included in approach clearance phraseology.

I'm not sure how they would differentiate between these (SFO) GPS and RNP procedures in a clearance, though.

gary
Click to expand...


I've never heard of a controller clear me for the "RNAV Rwy 4 approach". It is always "cleared GPS rwy 4 approach".
 
AirBaker said:
I've never heard of a controller clear me for the "RNAV Rwy 4 approach". It is always "cleared GPS rwy 4 approach".
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Chris,
Not all GPS approaches are RVAV approaches. Check the title of the chart to see. If it says "GPS Rwy 14", he should state "GPS Rwy 14". If the title is "RNAV (GPS) Rwy 14", he should state "RNAV Rwy 14". Not all controllers follow their procedures correctly, the same as many pilots who do not, but that does not make it okay.

There is a GPS 32 approach at my home field, and when I ask for it, one of the controllers clears me for the RNAV 32, although it does not exist. Yes, I know what he means, but, there could be both types, so which one would I use if there were both types here?

The problem in the OP is that there are RNAV (GPS) and RNAV (RNP) approaches to the same runway at SFO. Not sure how they handle that there, except to perhaps state the name in parenthesis, even if diffrent than the 7110.65 phraseology.

gary
 
I guess I phrased that incorrectly. Even if it is a GPS/RNAV approach, I never get the 'RNAV' terminology.
 
I think the confusion comes from GPS being commonly used in lieu of DME and/or VOR/DME fixes. How many folks these days with an approved GPS on-board use VOR/DME fixes during an approach? Even in cases of the GPS not being authorized for use, I'm betting it's often still selected on the CDI.
 
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