Say a pilot is based at a field that is just inside the mode C veil of a class Bravo airport. He has a plane with an electrical system but no transponder. He stays ouside of the mode C veil accept during departure and arrival at his field. How long will he get away with this?
Flying with no transponder in mode C veil
- Thread starter Bob S
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N659HB
En-Route
Who's going to know he has an electrical system?
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
How would anyone know unless someone ratted them out, there was an accident, or they got ramp checked?
I operated an experimental like this from 2000 through 2008 in the Phoenix Mode C veil(based at FFZ).
I called/asked Phoenix TRACON about a waiver. They sent me a form that had to be signed by an IA(perhaps only an A&P) checking a box regarding why no x ponder could be installed(lack of sufficient electrical power, insufficient panel space were a couple of the legitimate reasons I recall).
Faxed a copy of the original form the first of every year and each year they gave me a waiver number to provide if asked(never was asked except for a short time late 2001-early 2002 when I had to request a new number by phone before every flight)
I called/asked Phoenix TRACON about a waiver. They sent me a form that had to be signed by an IA(perhaps only an A&P) checking a box regarding why no x ponder could be installed(lack of sufficient electrical power, insufficient panel space were a couple of the legitimate reasons I recall).
Faxed a copy of the original form the first of every year and each year they gave me a waiver number to provide if asked(never was asked except for a short time late 2001-early 2002 when I had to request a new number by phone before every flight)
N659HB
En-Route
'Fess up. How long have you been doing this?
TRocket
Line Up and Wait
Yep, this. Also, a whole year and 5 posts...just sayin
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Velocity173
He can get away with it until one day ATC calls traffic on his primary target and then decide to follow that primary. Gets investigated by the sup by calling the FBO to see if a particular aircraft just landed there.
Odds of all that happening, slim to none.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
I had to struggle with a similar question when I ferried Carlson from NY to TX. Because of limited range and poor weather, I really would prefer more options for airports. However, Cleveland Mode C veil covers all the good airports that I count on when I fly a real airplane in the area, and pushes me out into less inhabited regions. It also touches Akron's surface area, so I cannot even squeeze through there. Attached is a chart. In the event, I did the right thing and bypassed Akron from the south-east, all the way fretted where I'm going to divert. Not to Portage for sure.
I've flown aircraft with no transponder in and out of IAD on a number of occasions (even a few times AFTER 9/11). All you need to do is make prior arrangement. If he's close enough to the edge of the airspace, it's possible the facility gave him a blanket approval.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
While you may never get caught for the violation, there is a chance you may.
We've had a violator doing the exact same until while issuing the primary target an IFR aircraft came uncomfortably close. We simply followed the target to the airport and called the FBO/airport operator and they gave us the callsign and it was forwarded to the FSDO. Not sure the final outcome because we don't care to follow up.
It is really simple if you just call the facility that owns the airspace. I've had numerous request to operate in the veil without a transponder and have always approved it.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Staying low with a wood and fabric airplane with a wood propellor would increase your odds. What is the airport?
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Light and Sporty Guy
DTW won't pick you up at 1000 AGL and 30 miles out in a rag and (steel) tube LSA.20 miles out, they did have me on radar. Don't know exactly when they picked up the blip.
But getting in and out was no issue - they just wanted me to remain clear of Bravo and Canadian air space.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Flying a C-206 VFR into Salt Lake City one time, I did not find out my transponder was not working until the lady on approach let me know, and she did so loudly, often and with super exuberance. Right before she turned me loose with the tower she rather proudly informed me that I was not to leave until I got my transponder fixed and would not be accepted by departure if I tried to leave. This being a holiday weekend I was not going to stay the weekend waiting for a transponder.
Challenge accepted.
After landing and before the body arrived, I phoned the tower and explained that my transponder was not working and asked how can I get out.
No problem. We won't assign a code, obviously and then we will give you vectors out of the airspace and you will be on your way.
I got the shortest clearance I have ever received, "Cessna 123.....uh....departure frequency 123.45....uhhhh...... that's it, have a safe flight."
I departed, tower turned me left then sent me to departure. Departure said keep present heading and altitude, and let us know when you cross the second divided highway. I let them know and they turned me loose. I did request that they wish the friendly lady on approach a happy Memorial day from me. The controller laughed knowingly and said will do.
Challenge accepted.
After landing and before the body arrived, I phoned the tower and explained that my transponder was not working and asked how can I get out.
No problem. We won't assign a code, obviously and then we will give you vectors out of the airspace and you will be on your way.
I got the shortest clearance I have ever received, "Cessna 123.....uh....departure frequency 123.45....uhhhh...... that's it, have a safe flight."
I departed, tower turned me left then sent me to departure. Departure said keep present heading and altitude, and let us know when you cross the second divided highway. I let them know and they turned me loose. I did request that they wish the friendly lady on approach a happy Memorial day from me. The controller laughed knowingly and said will do.
I even managed to get out of IAD with no transponder and the primary radar was out (which we didn't have for a couple months). Effectively, I was invisible to ATC.