Flying the Caribbean (Part 5) - to Virgin Gorda -- Tower turned him right toward us!

[wayneda40]

On to the British Virgin Islands, awesome scenery, warm waters, and great food... but a sketchy moment where on-board traffic and eye balls overruled a Tower clearance.

Controllers... if you're working a non-radar environment, why wouldn't you bring a laptop to work (or whatever) so that FlightAware/FlightRadar24 would give a boost to your understanding of traffic under your control?

Pilots, what stories and advice can you share?

Thoughts, questions, and suggestions? I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks for your insight and enjoy the video!
Wayne, the GeezerGeek Pilot

 

[Skip Miller]

You (Joe Pilot) are not legally permitted to rely on unofficial data. I suspect the same is true for tower controllers.

-Skip

 

[wayneda40]

You (Joe Pilot) are not legally permitted to rely on unofficial data. I suspect the same is true for tower controllers.

-Skip

Thanks for the feedback, Skip... but as a pilot we are able and encouraged to use whatever information and tools we choose to enhance our situational awareness. I'd expect/hope it's the same for controllers.

 

[Skip Miller]

Thanks for the feedback, Skip... but as a pilot we are able and encouraged to use whatever information and tools we choose to enhance our situational awareness. I'd expect/hope it's the same for controllers.

I would not expect that. The controllers would be playing “you bet your job” as well as amping up the liability spectrum.

 

[wayneda40]

I would not expect that. The controllers would be playing “you bet your job” as well as amping up the liability spectrum.

Sadly true. We can only hope that ADS-B can be very soon implemented in all control rooms worldwide. It's a bit sad that sitting in my aircraft on an instrument approach that I have way more insight as to the traffic environment than the controller has (as shown in this video).

 

[Velocity173]

Non-radar separation is an approach control function. You’re talking to tower. Even in the US, other than TRSA, B or C, there is no separation between you and the other aircraft. It’s a traffic call. And no, they can’t use Flightradar24 to provide some quasi radar sep.

 

[wayneda40]

Non-radar separation is an approach control function. You’re talking to tower. Even in the US, other than TRSA, B or C, there is no separation between you and the other aircraft. It’s a traffic call. And no, they can’t use Flightradar24 to provide some quasi radar sep.

Clearly Tower (Beef Island, British Virgin Islands in this case) wasn't using anything other than binoculars and position reports... and he directed traffic <2 miles north of us to turn south directly toward us! Were it not for ADS-B (Out and In) and 3 sets of good eye balls in our aircraft (although we were in and out of IMC) the situation might not have ended well. I believe that this video makes this pretty clear.

My point is... there is technology (ADS-B In receivers) available that is inexpensive (e.g. a Sentry at a few hundred bucks) that SHOULD be used in these kinds of non-radar situations to provide the controllers with additional situational awareness beyond tickets moved around on table tops, position reports, and binoculars. I realize there is bureaucracy inhibiting this, but it's pretty sad that I have way more tools for traffic awareness in my little DA40 than this Tower controller had.

 

[Velocity173]

Clearly Tower (Beef Island, British Virgin Islands in this case) wasn't using anything other than binoculars and position reports... and he directed traffic <2 miles north of us to turn south directly toward us! Were it not for ADS-B (Out and In) and 3 sets of good eye balls in our aircraft (although we were in and out of IMC) the situation might not have ended well. I believe that this video makes this pretty clear.

My point is... there is technology (ADS-B In receivers) available that is inexpensive (e.g. a Sentry at a few hundred bucks) that SHOULD be used in these kinds of non-radar situations to provide the controllers with additional situational awareness beyond tickets moved around on table tops, position reports, and binoculars. I realize there is bureaucracy inhibiting this, but it's pretty sad that I have way more tools for traffic awareness in my little DA40 than this Tower controller had.

Yeah and they should be using binos. That’s the purpose of towers...visual. Your situation is no different than arriving in any Class D in the US. Their job is to issue traffic calls and sequence aircraft visually, not separate you by radar or non-radar.

Even if it’s a Class D with a tower radar display, it’s just there for situational awareness and not hands on separation purposes. You’re IFR vs VFR and unless the regs get rewritten with significant changes, it’s nothing more than a traffic call.

 

[wayneda40]

Yeah and they should be using binos. That’s the purpose of towers...visual. Your situation is no different than arriving in any Class D in the US. Their job is to issue traffic calls and sequence aircraft visually, not separate you by radar or non-radar.

Even if it’s a Class D with a tower radar display, it’s just there for situational awareness and not hands on separation purposes. You’re IFR vs VFR and unless the regs get rewritten with significant changes, it’s nothing more than a traffic call.

As a controller (I assume), you seem quite content with the tools you have, even in a non-radar environment. That's nice.
As a customer (pilot) of the system, I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY (as this video illustrates) that non-radar controllers (center, approach, tower) don't have ADS-B receivers (or ADS-B In data feeds) in the control room for enhanced situational awareness.

 

[Velocity173]

As a controller (I assume), you seem quite content with the tools you have, even in a non-radar environment. That's nice.
As a customer (pilot) of the system, I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY (as this video illustrates) that non-radar controllers (center, approach, tower) don't have ADS-B receivers (or ADS-B In data feeds) in the control room for enhanced situational awareness.

Don’t do ATC anymore but I was content with the tools (Radar) I had. ADS-B wouldn’t have made a significant impact on my job other than the benefit of a 1 sec refresh rate.

What your advocating might very well happen in the not to distant future but for now, controllers have to use the CERTIFIED tools that they’re given. It’s like in my present job (air ambulance) my flight ops can issue a traffic call based on their display. There’s nothing regulating how they do that because they’re not controllers. ATC on the other hand has to use specific equipment designed for the purpose of issuing traffic and if required, separating traffic. There’s liability issues involved. Even with certified tower radar displays (CTRD), towers (local controllers) have restrictions on what they can use their display for. It’s about proper training and controller qualification. ADS-B and space based ADS-B will work its way into areas that were non-radar before but change is slow.

 

[Katamarino]

2 miles is a ridiculously long way and I wouldn't even think twice about that.

 

[luvflyin]

On to the British Virgin Islands, awesome scenery, warm waters, and great food... but a sketchy moment where on-board traffic and eye balls overruled a Tower clearance.

Controllers... if you're working a non-radar environment, why wouldn't you bring a laptop to work (or whatever) so that FlightAware/FlightRadar24 would give a boost to your understanding of traffic under your control?

Pilots, what stories and advice can you share?

Thoughts, questions, and suggestions? I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks for your insight and enjoy the video!
Wayne, the GeezerGeek Pilot

The time delay between what is actually happening and what gets displayed on FlightAware/FlightRadar 24 would make it useless for this

 

[Velocity173]

The time delay between what is actually happening and what gets displayed on FlightAware/FlightRadar 24 would make it useless for this

From what I’ve seen, the ADS-B targets are very close to real-time. The problem is, at least in my area, you drop off around 1,500 ft. I have noticed a several second delay with Flightaware but that was a couple years ago. They might have updated their system by now.

 

[Lindberg]

As a controller (I assume), you seem quite content with the tools you have, even in a non-radar environment. That's nice.
As a customer (pilot) of the system, I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY (as this video illustrates) that non-radar controllers (center, approach, tower) don't have ADS-B receivers (or ADS-B In data feeds) in the control room for enhanced situational awareness.

Your conclusion that situational awareness will be increased depends on several implied premises that probably aren't true.

 

[UngaWunga]

nice click-bait title....

 

[wayneda40]

nice click-bait title....

Definition of Clickbait below. As this video clearly shows (0:04 and 14:00), there's nothing false about the title... the non-radar Tower controller (not really knowing the location of the two aircraft at the same altitude) turns the faster aircraft directly toward us. Intent of the post is to have a good discussion (which this thread bears out) on how technology in non-radar control rooms (e.g. ADS-B receivers) might enhance controller situational awareness.

"Clickbait is a form of false advertisement which uses hyperlink text or a thumbnail link that is designed to attract attention and entice users to follow that link and read, view, or listen to the linked piece of online content, with a defining characteristic of being deceptive, typically sensationalized or misleading."​

 

[eman1200]

nice video! man, the contrast in colors between the white clouds, ridiculously blue water, etc is pretty amazing.

 

[wayneda40]

eman1200... thanks, glad you enjoyed. Credit goes to the quality and stabilization of the GoPro Hero 8... and the beauty of the locale. It's a pretty easy trip (distances, customs/immigration) that I strongly encourage most any pilot/aircraft to take.
Wayne