Flying out of SLC (or trying to) yesterday.

gismo

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iGismo
I had a rather unpleasant experience yesterday returning home from Salt Lake City where we went for a little skiing. The wx was MVFR to IFR so I called the TRACON to see what kind of departure routing would be best and was told they weren't accepting any departures from U42 (Muni 2, the reliever I had landed at) because the main airport was IMC. I said something profound like "huh", and was told that since allowing any departures from U42 requires them to stop all arrivals into KSLC, I should expect at least a 2 hr delay. So we waited an hour and a half, then headed to the field which was now quite VMC. Cleaned the two inches of snow off, loaded and preflighted the plane, got some fuel, and taxied out to the runway. Called clearance delivery and was told that there would be at least a two hour, possibly indefinite delay. Suggested that I could depart VFR to the south (away from the main airport) if I could get a clearance once in the air and was told that wouldn't work either. Then the controller said to call on the approach frequency (I was on a local clearance freq) and "maybe they can work something out". Tried that but couldn't get a reply (I could hear them but they couldn't hear me) so I went back to clearance and was given the phone # for the TRACON (the same number I had called about 3 hours prior). I taxied back in and call the TRACON. The controller that answered was apologetic but basically repeated what I was told before, that they would have to close KSLC to arrivals to let me out. He also said that the MVA in the vallley was 9000 MSL (about 5500 AGL) and the only way I could leave would be if I could get to 9000 in VMC without enterring the Class B (which bottoms out at 7000 MSL or lower across most of the valley/basin). So here I am with clear skies above me, unable to depart. We went to lunch and came back an hour later and called back to see if things had improved at KSLC. They were VFR now but still couldn't allow me to depart without stopping arrivals. Then he said "I guess you've been waiting a long time, go ahead and call clearance from the runway and we'll try to get you out. I did and they gave me the one and only SID (that takes you right into KSLC area) and let me go after only a 5 minute wait once I was able to report sighting an incoming RJ on approach to KSLC.

I was originally planning to leave at 10 AM and finally got airborne around 3:30 PM which of course meant arriving after dark (and after tower closure) back at Minneapolis reliever KFCM in the middle of a major snowstorm. Had we departed within two hours of the proposed time, it would have been ahead of the wx and before sunset.

The darkness also added to the difficulties enroute when we encountered ice near the eastern end of SD. I was able to find ice free air but not before accumulating a bunch of rough ice on the unprotected surfaces. That plus the strong headwinds down below the clouds reduced my GS to something like 110 Kt for most of the last 80 nm. The only bright spot on the trip was the call from the airport maintenance crew saying they had cleared the runway to black pavement just before I started down the glideslope (wx was 300-1/2).
 
I've also run into this problem at Salt Lake #2 only it wasn't as bad as your experience since it was beautiful VFR. We normally pick up our IFR on the ground, especially in busy, complex airspace. When we called for the clearance the controller said that it would be at least 45 minutes. I thought that maybe I hadn't heard right. 45 minutes?? He gave us the same reason he gave you, that they would have to stop the traffic into KSLC, the main airport. After examining the charts we decided to depart VFR and pick up our clearance in the air. I remember discussing with my flying buddy how this would have really presented a problem in bad weather. I guess we were right.
 
Well, excuse the impertinence, but I don't see any issue with them delaying SLC to get just one plane out of a reliever. That "they" won't exemplifies just exactly who the FAA works for nowadays. And it ain't GA.
 
My airport has the same problem
According to ATC at my local tower, the lack of proper radar information around the local hills, means that they have to "sterilize" the airspace when aircraft are arriving IFR to 22 at KCDW. Unfortunately sterilizing the airspace means holding approaching traffic into KTEB.
I guess that a lack of great radar coverage in the SLC area due to the mountains that you ski on means that the controllers don't have proper xponder reports there as well. One more satellite radar receiver would probably solve the problem
 
infotango said:
My airport has the same problem
According to ATC at my local tower, the lack of proper radar information around the local hills, means that they have to "sterilize" the airspace when aircraft are arriving IFR to 22 at KCDW. Unfortunately sterilizing the airspace means holding approaching traffic into KTEB.
I guess that a lack of great radar coverage in the SLC area due to the mountains that you ski on means that the controllers don't have proper xponder reports there as well. One more satellite radar receiver would probably solve the problem
I don't know if it's a radar problem. Surely they can see any traffic in the basin which is something like 30 miles wide at altitudes well below 5500 AGL. And when I came in several days prior, they could see me on the other side of the mountains that rim the valley. I think the real issue is a lack of compatible procedures between the two airports. You'd think it would be possible to set up a DP from the reliever that didn't conflict at all with the landing or departing traffic at the main airport, at least for GPS equipped aircraft.
 
lancefisher said:
You'd think it would be possible to set up a DP from the reliever that didn't conflict at all with the landing or departing traffic at the main airport, at least for GPS equipped aircraft.
I don't know. Salt Lake #2 is only about 6 or 7 miles south of the main airport and lined up with the runways.
 
Lance, have you considered filing an ASRS report? Specifically because ATC's requirement that you reach MVA in VMC and also the delay seriously degraded your flight safety.

Perhaps a detailed letter to IFR mag would help too. They eat this stuff up.

EDIT: to clarify, ATC wanted you at MVA (090) but only if you could stay outside of Bravo which overlies at 070. Not sure I understand what you were saying there. I think it's pretty straight forward, but I sometimes think that about other stuff which turns out to be a bit more than that. Maybe I'm missing something especially when you added they gave you the SID anyway.
 
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Lance, could you have flown south VFR into Provo? Then departed from there IFR? When i fly into SLC I goto KBTF (Bountiful skypark) when i know the weather wont be an issue. If it looks like bad weather I will fly into Provo.
 
Lance, this is exactly where a letter to Senator Blowhard and Phil Boyer should be used.

Your experience, unfortunately, is becoming more and more common near Class B airports. The airspace and procedures are being run by the airlines. "No FLIBS in our airspace".

It will only get worse when the airlines get their wish of privatized ATC with user fees - only then, you will have to pay for the privilege of being delayed.

The Class B issues are exactly the same kind of policy that's used at Cincinnati (another Delta Airlines hub airport, incidently). 50+ NM delays there to avoid the Class B airspace.

The message that ATC is sending is "use the main airport".... which gives the airlines even bigger fits.

Welcome to the future of GA.
 
I learned of this problem at Salt Lake #2 in 2004 when I had to wait only about an hour to get out IFR. See my Airnav comments back then.

The airport is very pleasant to use in all other respects, and offers easy access to the ski areas in the Cottonwood Canyons. The personnel at the airport are very helpful, to the point of pulling my plane into the hangar to defrost for no charge last month.

Unfortunately, this practice of severely limiting IFR departures from U42 is a long established tradition at this point, and is unlikely to change. The controllers are very good about issuing clearances if you can depart VFR, and have cleared me to climb into the B space immediately. However, if you think you might need to depart in low conditons, the bottom line is you've got to use another airport. Fortunately, weather that bad in the SLC valley is rare.

Jon
 
With a delay like that you could have declared Minimum Fuel on the ground!

I was treated like that by Phx last summer, clear and a billion, but no way to get a clearance on the ground or in the air. Left vfr and finally a mil controller got us a clearance.
Fixing this is going to take an act of congress. Freedom to travel or something.
 
Richard said:
Lance, have you considered filing an ASRS report? Specifically because ATC's requirement that you reach MVA in VMC and also the delay seriously degraded your flight safety.

That's not a bad idea.

Perhaps a detailed letter to IFR mag would help too. They eat this stuff up.

Maybe, but I'd rather have some kind of "better way" to deal with the problem first and report on that.

EDIT: to clarify, ATC wanted you at MVA (090) but only if you could stay outside of Bravo which overlies at 070. Not sure I understand what you were saying there. I think it's pretty straight forward, but I sometimes think that about other stuff which turns out to be a bit more than that. Maybe I'm missing something especially when you added they gave you the SID anyway.

OK. First the Class B floor over U42 is 6000. A few miles to the south the floor rises to 7000, and over to the east (by the mountains) it's 9000. Unfortunately the clear skies only existed directly over the airport in the form of a 5-6 mile diameter hole. Over by the mountains to the east and to the south there were clouds that I might have been able to top but I suspected that the Class B would have been in the way. For those reasons I declined to depart VFR with the hope of reaching 9000 while VFR and outside the Class B. Eventually (after about a 5 hour delay) ATC cleared me for an IFR departure via the SID.
 
Michael said:
Lance, could you have flown south VFR into Provo? Then departed from there IFR? When i fly into SLC I goto KBTF (Bountiful skypark) when i know the weather wont be an issue. If it looks like bad weather I will fly into Provo.

Provo was IMC so that wasn't an option. I have flown into and out of U42 many times before, more often VFR but sometimes IFR without all this trouble. I also have gone into KSLC itself a couple times which might be the best option assuming they'd let a FLIB depart from there (seems more likely since it shouldn't involve holding up all the other traffic). U42 is a bit closer to my sister-in-law's home than SLC or PROVO, but I'll have to ask her how far Provo really is since she lives just inside the SE corner of the freeway near Big Cottonwood Canyon.
 
Richard said:
Remind me, what's a FLIB?

F*ing little itinerant b*tard.

or

Flying little itinerant b*tard.

or

Anyone not flying a G4 or larger jet.
 
wsuffa said:
F*ing little itinerant b*tard.

or

Flying little itinerant b*tard.

or

Anyone not flying a G4 or larger jet.

Or any plane a controller doesn't feel is worth working with.
 
lancefisher said:
I had a rather unpleasant experience yesterday returning home from Salt Lake City where we went for a little skiing. The wx was MVFR to IFR so I called the TRACON to see what kind of departure routing would be best and was told they weren't accepting any departures from U42 (Muni 2, the reliever I had landed at) because the main airport was IMC. I said something profound like "huh", and was told that since allowing any departures from U42 requires them to stop all arrivals into KSLC, I should expect at least a 2 hr delay. .
Lance, you have just experienced C90 (Elgin IL) Chicago Approach. I was bitching about this last year. This is why I am so unlaterably opposed to fee for service. It'll be fee for nothing. Worse, I don't see how controllers can expect GA support in their battles. They have to be the providers of service or their protestations ring hollow to me.
 
bbchien said:
/snip/

They have to be the providers of service or their protestations ring hollow to me.
Bruce, how do you propose to advise ATC of the importance to ally with GA for the upoming battle?
 
Richard said:
Bruce, how do you propose to advise ATC of the importance to ally with GA for the upoming battle?
I dunno. Even Todd Henning (aka "spark") at Indy Center hasn't figgured it out yet.

But we gotta do this.
 
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