Flying Multi-Engine On A Limited Basis

Out of curiosity, I checked into the insurance requirements to rent the Aztec at our FBO. 500 total hours: 100 multi-engine and 20 in type.

Well that ends that discussion. :no:
 
To the OP: I have been reading this thread and have decided to weigh in a little. The biggest unknown is your definition of safe. Very few pilots of light twins (IMO) are really proficient in all segments of flight in a light twin.
You may be reasonably proficient in some of the segments. For example I would hope any multi pilot could from while en route put a twin down safely in VFR with one engine out. This can certainly be practiced reasonably safely. You might need to be sure you can do the VFR approach with very little chance of needing a go around. If you have got that down pat then in that particular segment I would think you could consider yourself proficient and "safe" as compared to flying a single engine. Once a month practicing this may be enough.
Since you said VFR only we will skip the instrument approach on one engine.
The first 10 seconds of the flight should be similar to a single except maintaining directional control on the ground with the loss of one engine. Again with a competent multi instructor you should be able to practice this a few times a year and know you can get the throttles closed and maintain directional control.
With the above considered I think you would be at least as safe as in a single during these segments which will be 99% of any flight. Only slightly more skill is needed than operating a HP complex single.
Now the segment that begins at +10 seconds to oh say +100 seconds. You now have 90 seconds of each flight that may be problematic. First this segment is difficult to simulate due to the inherent danger of shutting down an engine close to the ground. Yes you can go up to 3000 AGL, dirty up the plane and pull an engine. This will give you some feel for the situation. However, I can promise you no amount of training at 3000 AGL and knowing ahead of time what and when it will happen will ever make you proficient for the real thing. I can also promise you that on a +30 deg day, at 100 pounds under gross if you lose one during this 90 seconds, especially from 10 feet AGL to perhaps 500 feet AGL you will have a serious problem on your hands. Unless you can practice this in a sim (which does not exist ) a pilot can not be proficient during this segment. I know the OP said VFR only but, throw in a 200 foot ceiling. I am not familiar with the Aztec performance but in the above example it may not be flyable especially with one wind milling.
So, what is the answer? If you are comfortable with being at least as safe in the twin as in a HP complex in all of the flight segments except the 90 seconds mentioned then I think your plan is reasonable. In that 90 seconds you may have to accept that you will be no safer and perhaps less safe than in the single engine.
Take a pilot with almost 7000 hours, more than half in a twin, with about 1600 hours in make and model (PA 31-350). You are departing Denver on a 70 degree day at 100 pounds under gross. You lose one at 50 feet AGL. You do a great job of identifying the bad engine and getting it feathered. As the gear is coming up the plane settles into the ground about 200 feet past the end of the runway. BTDT, fortunately the instructor re set the sim and let me try it again. I was successful the second time getting the plane back on the ground and still being flyable. Was I proficient after the second try?

Let's see. Flying a sim, that doesn't exist- simulated engine out, forced landing 200 feet past DER. 2nd try: kept it on the runway.

Ya got me????:dunno:
 
You should probably allocate time before family flights with an instructor if you're only talking about 10-15 hours a year.
I'm with Ted. Either make it your primary plane and fly it at least 75 hours a year, or stick with singles. And your FBO isn't likely to let you fly their Aztec without a CFI aboard if you only fly it 10-15 hours a year unless you get a couple of hours of recurrent training the day before you take it -- with no guarantees until they see how you do on the training day.
Take a pilot with almost 7000 hours, more than half in a twin, with about 1600 hours in make and model (PA 31-350). You are departing Denver on a 70 degree day at 100 pounds under gross. You lose one at 50 feet AGL. You do a great job of identifying the bad engine and getting it feathered. As the gear is coming up the plane settles into the ground about 200 feet past the end of the runway. BTDT, fortunately the instructor re set the sim and let me try it again. I was successful the second time getting the plane back on the ground and still being flyable. Was I proficient after the second try?
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
It has always seemed to me that if you are not flying and training often, the next best thing is to train just before the operational skills are required.

On the contrary, flying just enough to maintain currency throughout the year can be a trap simply because you are barely proficient at the critical tasks that might be required at "+10 seconds to +100 seconds". The kind of muscle memory, eye/hand coordination and speed required at that critical moment requires recent practice and I'm thinking it degrades quickly with time.

I got my rating but never considered using it but the same thinking applies to target shooting, golf, or even fly fishing. Recent repetition makes you a more proficient performer.
 
It's insidious how quick the skills deteriorate after some down time. Hadn't flown mine for 2 weeks, and it was a good reminder of just how much one can forget.
 
Out of curiosity, I checked into the insurance requirements to rent the Aztec at our FBO. 500 total hours: 100 multi-engine and 20 in type.

Well that ends that discussion. :no:

Not necessarily, talk to their insurance guy and see what it takes to buy it down.
 
Jaybird I don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Sims for light twins do not exist. The sim I was flying at that time was for a PA31-350 which DOES exist. My point is you can practice things in the sim (for those aircraft that sims exist) that you can not practice in the real plane.

OK, second try, kept it in the air and came back around for an ILS approach. Notice the engine cut was 50 feet AGL as clearly stated (gear almost in the gear wells). No option of putting it back on the runway. The aircraft in that particular situation was capable of completing the flight safely if flown correctly. My question to the OP is how does one get proficient in a light twin with no way to practice these type scenarios.
My point: I was one for two, does that make me proficient in this particular situation as compared to the pilot that does not get a chance to try it? My original premise to the OP was his definition of safe.

Good grief Jay, you have a lot of trouble with written comprehension?
 
Out of curiosity, I checked into the insurance requirements to rent the Aztec at our FBO. 500 total hours: 100 multi-engine and 20 in type.

Well that ends that discussion. :no:

Actually Tiger IMO those requirements are pretty liberal. The 100 hours multi, perhaps but, 20 in make and model seems reasonable, no?
 
Actually Tiger IMO those requirements are pretty liberal. The 100 hours multi, perhaps but, 20 in make and model seems reasonable, no?

He can likely buy down to 100TT 25dual in plane, especially if he doesn't have his ME yet and does it in the plane. I'll bet he can buy down on a named basis for a few hundred dollars.
 
Jaybird I don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Sims for light twins do not exist. The sim I was flying at that time was for a PA31-350 which DOES exist. My point is you can practice things in the sim (for those aircraft that sims exist) that you can not practice in the real plane.

OK, second try, kept it in the air and came back around for an ILS approach. Notice the engine cut was 50 feet AGL as clearly stated (gear almost in the gear wells). No option of putting it back on the runway. The aircraft in that particular situation was capable of completing the flight safely if flown correctly. My question to the OP is how does one get proficient in a light twin with no way to practice these type scenarios.
My point: I was one for two, does that make me proficient in this particular situation as compared to the pilot that does not get a chance to try it? My original premise to the OP was his definition of safe.

Good grief Jay, you have a lot of trouble with written comprehension?

I pedantically rib you and you get personal...okay small ego. Got it.
 
Jaybird I don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Sims for light twins do not exist. The sim I was flying at that time was for a PA31-350 which DOES exist. My point is you can practice things in the sim (for those aircraft that sims exist) that you can not practice in the real plane.

OK, second try, kept it in the air and came back around for an ILS approach. Notice the engine cut was 50 feet AGL as clearly stated (gear almost in the gear wells). No option of putting it back on the runway. The aircraft in that particular situation was capable of completing the flight safely if flown correctly. My question to the OP is how does one get proficient in a light twin with no way to practice these type scenarios.
My point: I was one for two, does that make me proficient in this particular situation as compared to the pilot that does not get a chance to try it? My original premise to the OP was his definition of safe.

Good grief Jay, you have a lot of trouble with written comprehension?

Flight Safety trains 310 pilots in the 421 sim using modified parameters.
 
Jay, when one has little to prove then that can lead to a lessening of ego so, in that you may be correct.
Of course you are entitled to consider my words as tiresome or trivial which is certainly your right. Perhaps you were meaning your criticism was trivial and tiresome, not sure. However it was not the criticism that I took exception to but, being misinterpreted. Personal? naw, not important enough to take personal.
My words were to the OP and I hope he got something out of them. Most likely the OP only got his money's worth.:wink2:
 
Henning, I have seen that advertised. I have no experience with that particular activity. I did make the mistake of doing my initial IIIA at Sim Com in Florida. I did not know at the time the only Cheyenne III sim was at Flight Safety in Lakeland. Sim Com used a Cheyenne II with so called changed parameters. The ground school was quite good but the sim time was worth very little. There is just too much difference in the cockpit layout to be very useful IMO.
I also went one time to FTC in Illinois (half as expensive as FS) for PA31 training. They had a generic FTD and it too was of little use. I agree any sim time is better than none but, IMO when you are trying to get proficient in a particular make and model there is no substitute for the actual cockpit you are training for. Again JMO.
 
Actually Tiger IMO those requirements are pretty liberal. The 100 hours multi, perhaps but, 20 in make and model seems reasonable, no?

No, I'm not saying the 20 in type is an unreasonable requirement, just that based on my current time I would need to spend a lot of $$ to reach 100 multi-engine hours. I might as well look into purchasing a twin if I'm willing to make that type of commitment.

Buying the insurance down is a concept I was unfamiliar with and will have to investigate further. Thanks for the suggestion Henning.
 
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Yes, Tiger, it is a dilemma. It may never be cost effective to try to fly a twin on occasion. Of course I was not really commenting on that in my first post. One could make the argument (as I was trying to do) that no light twin pilot is ever proficient in all segments of a particular trip due to the lack of training in critical areas. In fact, IMO, even if the facilities were available for the light twin, how many private pilots would spend the $4K-5K per year to take advantage of the training? I never did sim training in the Navajo until someone else was paying for it.:wink2:
I don't see any cut and dried answers. Henning is correct on the insurance. It being a commercial policy it might be more stringent though. If you want to fly the Aztec it might be worth the time to ask the question.
 
It's an Aztec, Danny Kaye got his PPL in an Aztec, they know they can be flown safely by low time pilots. When I bought my Travelair with 60hrs TT and no ME rating the insurance guy was amazed at the $1100 premium, so he did some checking and said "I couldn't get you done in a Bonanza for twice that." They stipulated 20hrs dual and I do my ME Checkride in that plane.
 
Flight Safety trains 310 pilots in the 421 sim using modified parameters.

No they don't. It's a 421 sim and they just vary the weight for similar performance. I was still flying GTSIOs until they put me in the 425 because we broke the 421.
 
No they don't. It's a 421 sim and they just vary the weight for similar performance. I was still flying GTSIOs until they put me in the 425 because we broke the 421.

I don't see where what you said disagrees with what I said except fot "no they don't.":dunno:
 
I don't see where what you said disagrees with what I said except fot "no they don't.":dunno:

There's only one parameter they vary: weight.

The typical notion is that you go there and they'll actually make it act more like a 310. They don't. It's a 421 interior, 421 gauges, 421 power settings, turbos, etc. So it's not like they put in 310 engine gauges so you at least have more accurate engine readouts.

It's a 421 you train in.
 
There's only one parameter they vary: weight.

The typical notion is that you go there and they'll actually make it act more like a 310. They don't. It's a 421 interior, 421 gauges, 421 power settings, turbos, etc. So it's not like they put in 310 engine gauges so you at least have more accurate engine readouts.

It's a 421 you train in.

He didn't have me use 421 power settings, but this was 25 years ago.
 
The more I ponder this, it appears that a Saratoga would be a solid alternative to a light twin like the Aztec. It fits my needs and would be a relatively easy, less expensive transition from the Arrow. I am seeing some in the 90K-150K range which seems pretty reasonable for what you get.
 
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The more I ponder this, it appears that a Saratoga would be a solid alternative to a light twin like the Aztec. It fits my needs and would be a relatively easy, less expensive transition from the Arrow. I am seeing some in the 90K-150K range which seems pretty reasonable for what you get.

A SE plane is a solid alternative to a FIKI twin when it comes to hauling your family?:dunno:
 
Well Henning remember Tiger said he would only be doing VFR only in the twin so it may indeed be a solid alternative. I think Tiger's decision to forgo the occasional use of the light twin may be a good one based on his experience level. Just one of several opinions.
 
Well Henning remember Tiger said he would only be doing VFR only in the twin so it may indeed be a solid alternative. I think Tiger's decision to forgo the occasional use of the light twin may be a good one based on his experience level. Just one of several opinions.

I'm thinking long term. His experience level will quickly grow, he will get an instrument rating, his mission will expand to more weather. Ok, now he can switch to the Aztec right? Well, is his family safer if they start getting into this weather in a plane he has 100hrs of VFR familiarity as well as prior training in that if it's coming straight out of another platform?

In aviation if you don't have a long range plan, it's going to cost you.
 
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